Monday, June 30, 2025

Is Your Upline Rich?

 One of the things so many Amay IBOs and others do is assume that their upline diamond is rich beyond belief. At meetings, the speaker would be introduced as being in the top one tenth of one percent income bracket. While it may or may not be true, nobody ever questioned it, they just assumed it because people saw pictures of mansions and copies of 5-10 year old bonus checks. Even I never went and studied how the diamond bonuses worked. Most people just assumed that the money would be huge at the diamond level. But looking back, I can recall some things that make me believe that the diamonds were cutting corners and needed their platinum's working free in order to maximize profits.

The diamonds in our group often did not stay in hotels when visiting for a board plan, but in the home of another diamond or some lucky downline platinum. The diamonds rarely rented a car. Instead, a downline platinum or higher would be lucky enough to be the unpaid and uncompensated chauffeur for the weekend. The platinums basically were the doormen and ushers at the functions and in many cases, probably didn't even get to hear the speakers since they were busy working. Their reward for their troubles was "spending time" with their uplines.  Imagine that, working for free and being a chauffeur and doorman is an "honor"?

The downline are like unpaid volunteers. For example, ever see diamonds actually renting a moving van and hiring movers? I believe most of them had downline groupies who did the work for free, just for the honor of being near their upline. Just my opinion, but if these folks had mountains of cash, why wouldn't you hire movers so your downline didn't have to use up a valuable Saturday or Sunday to do that work? That's like having all of their stores closed. No products sold, no new recruits prospected. If Ray Kroc moved his residence, would all the nearby McDonald's owners close their stores to help him move?   I used this example since upline often use the McDonald's franchise in their examples of why Amway is a good business to join, even if an Amway business has nothing to do with a McDonald's or a franchise business.

Another things IBOs and prospects should note is that pictures of mansions, sports cars and jet skis doesn't mean someone is wealthy. Someone could have all those things on credit or rented after all.  And many people who truly are wealthy, do not show off their wealth. It is possible that many diamonds live mundane middle-class lifestyles on their income but need to portray wealth to lure in new IBOs. While your upline diamonds may act and look rich, how would you really know? I can take a homeless guy, clean him up and put him in a suit and a sportscar and he would probably look like a diamond.

If your uplines are implying that they are so wealthy, ask them to verify some of the claims. I'm not talking about their personal income, but in business, verifying business income is very common. If you are being invited into the business and a business system such as WWDB, BWW or N21, you have every right to check your upline's credentials. Avoidance of the truth, or an answer such as "none of your business" should be a red flag. It is your business if you are being asked to join and follow upline advice.

Amway Creates The Most Millionaires?

 I hear from some IBOs that they believe that Amway has created more millionaires than any other company in the US. I call BS on that claim. I am not saying that Amway hasn't created any millionaires, obviously, the Amway owners are worth billions of dollars. But what the IBOs are apparently implying is that the diamonds are millionaires. I'm sure there are some diamonds who indeed are millionaires, especially if they are tenured diamonds, in particular the double diamonds and higher. But conversely, I believe that many high-level diamonds are not millionaires. I believe it is just as common for a diamond to be in debt as it is for a diamond to be living large. I also believe that many diamonds did not accumulate their alleged wealth exclusively from Amway.

The reason why this is an issue is because these big pins will stand on stage and show off excessive wealth and imply that it is their Amway income that pays for these mansions, sports cars, and in some cases, jets. In the US, I attended a function called "Dream Nite" where these kinds of trapping are displayed, to the tune of the song "I wanna be rich". The diamonds would say that you can have what they have, if only you will do what they advise. These functions still go on today and I believe it is now called Winter Conference.

Stanley and Danko's book, "The Millionaire Next Door"
http://www.personalfinanceplaybook.com/2009/08/the-millionaire-next-door/

This book makes some very interesting points which I believe applies to Amway diamonds. I will outline the significant ones and I will comment below:

**Predictably, the data shows that most people who you believe to be very rich are not.

**High net worth individuals, statistically, tend to be people that live within their means. They don’t spend a lot of money. They don’t waste money. They tend to be pretty frugal people.

**The authors point out that most of the richest people you know aren’t driving expensive luxury automobiles. That’s what the people who want everyone to think they’re rich drive.

Joe's commentary. The book does say that about 1/3 of millionaires acquired their wealth thru a J-O-B and saved and invested, but did mention that many millionaires were also business owners, such as a pest control company, etc. But based on the points made by the book above, I can see where it is likely that diamonds portray a wealthy lifestyle as a recruitment tactic, when the reality is they may be living very middle class lifestyles off stage, or may even be in debt. I have seen evidence of diamonds having their homes foreclosed and being in debt (Ruth Carter's book: Amway: Behind the Smoke and Mirrors). Recently, there was also a report that Triple Diamond Greg Duncan filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy. The report indicated that he could not make his mortgages, or something to that tune. Odd, because when I was in WWDB, some of the upline leaders said diamonds paid cash for everything because paying interest to the bank wasn't very smart.

My question is why IBOs continue to make up these claims? Try googling millionaire or Amway millionaire. There is nothing to indicate that Amway was responsible for creating the "most millionaires" of any US company. If this were true, wouldn't Amway state it on their website? If someone finds any veracity about this claim, inform me and I will post it.  

I will also add that it's ridiculous to even think this claim is remotely true.  NVDA (Nvidia) is currently the most valuable company in the US sitting at about 3.5 trillion in valuation.  Amway is less than 10 billion if I'm not mistaken.  Does anyone really believe that Amway has created more millionaires than NVDA?  I'm almost certain that a large number of NVDA employees are millionaires or multi millionaires and much greater in number than Amway.  But this also illustrates the lengths upline must go to deceive their downline.  In the end, putting lipstick on a pig is still just a pig with lipstick.

Sunday, June 29, 2025

Whose Success Is Wanted?

 One of the things my upline leaders used to always talk about was how they wanted everyone to succeed. Looking back, I believe they were lying and simply wanted the faithful downline to keep spending money on tools whether they succeeded or not. Now I am not claiming that every single upline leader does this, but primarily the ones who run "systems", such as WWDB, N21, BWW, LTD and some others.  Based on what they say and teach, this is the only plausible conclusion I can make.

When I stopped and really thought about it, pretty much every piece of advice I received, I had to pay for. Voicemails, standing orders, functions, open meetings. I know these are supposedly optional, but in reality, they are a defacto requirement. Anyone with a "dream" is going to buy the tools because the leaders will tell you that you cannot succeed without tools. Ironically, the same leaders will blame individuals and cite personal responsibility for the failure of downline IBOs, even the ones who did everything they were told.

The leaders are edified and touted as having great business and financial acumen, thus not following their advice would seem foolish. Yet Amway defenders will try to claim that IBOs should discern the good and the bad and operate independently. It's a redundancy that many people do not see. Sure, a downline should not jump off a cliff because upline said they would pad their fall with a pile of cash, but many IBOs put in an earnest effort in Amway, only to fail because of the handicaps and reputation issues that Amway has. These IBOs are told they were lazy or quit too soon, or did not try hard enough. Yet the very few who manage to break thru are edified along with the system while ignoring the multitudes who do not make it.

The bottom line for IBOs and prospects to know, is that I believe most IBO leaders do not know you or care about you and your success. They are more interested in selling you websites, voicemail, standing orders and functions. They know that people will come and go, and they are perfectly happy replacing quitters with new people, as long as the system tools keep flowing. I believe some of the US diamonds are now hurting as Amway is apparently shrinking in the US. I read recently of Amway downsizing some of their operations, seemingly confirming that US sales are down. Also to note, Upline leaders would have to share tool profits with new emeralds and diamonds, which is why I believe they do not want new success.

I believe that Amway, other MLM businesses, Kiyosaki, or real estate gurus all have very limited or rare success with their financial systems. Informercials usually have a disclaimer that success is a "UNIQUE" experience. Amway is no different. But I believe in all of these cases, more money is generated in selling the system than by actually running the system. If not, success stories would be rampant, and people would line up to sign up instead of having to be deceived into even hearing the pitch.

Saturday, June 28, 2025

NYC Mayor Part 2

Just a little humorous story to illustrate a point.  Tomorrow I'm back to focusing on Amway AMOs. 


The Tax System Explained…in Beer! Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. The men decided to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, which went something like this… 

 The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing The fifth would pay $1 The sixth would pay $3 The seventh would pay $7 The eighth would pay $12 The ninth would pay $18 The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59 The ten men drank in the bar every day and were happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball - “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20″. From $100 to $80. 

 The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So, the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?  How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share? The bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay. 

And so… The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing.   The sixth man now paid $2 instead of $3 The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (100% savings). (33% savings). (28% savings). (25% savings). (22% savings). (16% savings). Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once they left the bar, the men began to compare their savings. “I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got $10!” “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar too. It’s unfair that he gotten ten times more benefit than me!” “That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!” “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. 

 The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill! And that is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore!

New York Mayor?

 This article isn't so much about the politics of the mayor's race in NY, but I'm fascinated that a sworn socialist was elected in a mostly liberal based city.   I'm from Hawaii, and I consider myself independent even though Hawaii is a deep blue state where democrats enjoy a super majority in the state legislature.  But what I find interesting is I see fatally flawed policy that could be enacted if Zohran Mamdani wins the general election in November.  Of course, fatally flawed is in my opinion, and in some ways, can be compared to the fatally flawed systems that the AMOs push in Amway.  The systems are good for some people, but not the majority.

I'll cover some of the highlights of what I see as flawed policies that seem destined for failure.  First off, it seems that Mamdani ran an exciting campaign but It seems as if a lot of his supporters are young voters who are enamored with universal basic income, which is sounds good, except someone has to pay for it.  Mamdani's plan is to tax the wealthy, but NY already had a big exodus of more affluent citizens due to high taxes, and the plan is to squeeze the wealthy for even more.  Some may stock it out, buy many are already planning to bail to other states that are less (tax) oppressive.

$30 minimum wage.  Sounds great for many people, but many small businesses will fold because they can't sustain a business with high taxation and having to per employees approximately $60K per year to mop floors or do other menial tasks.   Part of Mamdani's plan is to have the city run grocery stores that sell at wholesale, making it cheaper for resident.  The flaw here in my opinion is that government rarely runs things more efficiently than private business, and secondly, how can you make goods cheaper when your labor at the stores will be $30 an hour minimum wage?   I don't even see how fast food or mom and pop restaurants can survive with a profit if they have to pay higher taxes and unsustainable wages.  It is likely to lead to more or complete automation, or business closure.

Replace the police force with social workers.  Last time I checked, the NY city subway wasn't the safest place on the planet and not having deterrents such as police officers are likely to turn the city in a version of the movie "Escape From NY".  How can businesses and citizens prosper when public safety is not secure?  The super rich can live in gated communities with hired security, but average citizens will struggle and as far as I know, cities that defunded the police or became soft on crime, had increases in crime and violent crime, unless perhaps they don't charge offenders with felonies, then pretend that crime is actually down in the city.  And even the average citizen can't defend themselves with arms because Mamdani plans to ban all guns in N.Y.  if elected.

Mamdani is also advocating for free child care, which on the surface sounds great, except that the workers must be paid at least $60K per year which means someone must still pay their salaries even if it's not the recipients of free childcare.

Rent control.  Mr. Mamdani wants to impose rent control and believes that the reason people are leaving NY is because of the cost of housing.  I don't believe that high rent is the main reason people left NY.  I believe it's a combination of high taxation, lack of public safety and apparently much greener pastures in nearby states such as Florida, New Jersey or Tennessee.  I don't recall any city that implemented rent control and had remarkable success.  And again, rent control is almost a form of higher taxation for landlords who are likely to face increased taxation, property taxes and less revenue as a direct result of rent controls.  

There are other highly controversial issues but I'm thinking that if elected, NY and Mr. Mamdani will become a real-life reality show or social experiment.  Socialism in my opinion always appeals to a group of residents that will seemingly benefit initially, but the flaw in all the free stuff is that it's not actually free.  Someone is still paying the bill and those who foot the bill often gets tired of it and exercises their option to move elsewhere. Some of the Wall Street giants are already planning to bail out of NY.   Socialism seems great on paper, but eventually, the government runs out of money to sustain their free programs.  I wish the residents of NYC well, but be careful who you vote for, you may get more than you bargained for.  

    


Friday, June 27, 2025

Who's The Loser?

 One of the things I recall as a "fired up" Amway IBO was thinking how sorry I felt for people who were not Amway IBOs because we were all going to be rich and everyone else was a loser. Our upline used to tell us that we were winners - and if you weren't a winner, then obviously, you are a loser. Many times, the term "broke" was attached to the term loser. That was my mindset back then but having been out of the system more than twenty five years, I can look back and laugh, realizing that the losers were the ones buying stuff they don't need, stalking people at malls and bookstores, and wasting their time and money on tapes (cds), books and functions. We were losing both time and money, which is ironically what we joined to attain more of.

What goes unnoticed in many cases, is how much time and money really goes down the drain for Amway IBOs who work the system. Your life revolves around the business if you are dedicated and hard core. You are always looking for prospects and people to show the plan to, and you have to rearrange your schedules, or outright skip social or family gatherings because of the never-ending number of meetings and functions, many of which teach you nothing about running a profitable Amway business. When I first left the Amway business, I was sort of angry at the time and effort that was wasted, along with the cash I threw down the crapper.  But really there is no recourse because I chose to participate, even if under slightly deceptive circumstances.

But after I did finally cut ties with the business and the people associated with it, I got back into a routine of sorts. I focused on my job and after some years of gaining experience and working my way up the corporate ladder, I received some promotions, and I retired before the age of 55 with a decent retirement income and will likely have my home paid off by then. So, while I did have to work a dreaded job to be able to retire, pretty much all IBOs are also working a job or business PLUS having to expend their time and money to run their Amway business which has little to no chance of providing a long term stable and significant income. And if I may add, it is the systems such as WWDB or N21 that usually end up draining the IBOs of the most money because of things like the functions, voicemail, cds and recruitment meetings.

So I will ask the question. Who's the real loser? The person diligently working and saving for their future or the person chasing a dream that is unlikely to materialize? Factoring in the expenditure of time also makes the systems even more costly than it appears on the surface.  

Thursday, June 26, 2025

Reaping And Sowing?

 One of the things that many prospects and IBOs believe is that they will make an investment of time and money into their Amway business and that they will eventually get their time and money back in such abundance that they can walk off their jobs, and walk the beaches of the world while living in luxury because of lifelong residual income, all because of the Amway opportunity. For IBOs and prospects of Amway, I wonder if any of you can actually name even five people who have actually accomplished this? How about two? Keep in mind that there have probably been tens of millions of people who also wanted this and tried Amway and the systems, only to find that reality paints a different picture.

Many people they will reap what they sow. While that many sound true, I guess the next logical question is what are you sowing? Are you deceptive when prospecting people to see the plan? Are you having to justify high priced Amway product comparisons that are not favorable? Are you actually selling goods to customers and actually qualifying for your Amway bonus or are you self consuming and getting others to do the same? Do you have a negative opinion (broke losers) about people who don't join Amway or are not interested in seeing the plan? Do you now think your boss and your job are evil? Do you leave your kids at home to attend endless numbers of functions and meetings? You reap what you sow correct? The questions is what kinds of seeds are you actually planting?

I wonder what some WWDB diamonds were sowing? At least the ones who had their homes foreclosed, and one in particular was involved in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings? Are they reaping what they sowed? What about the WWDB diamonds who got divorced? What were they sowing? Are IBO sure about wanting to make the claim of reaping and sowing? And yes, Joecool the person also has his own flaws, but the difference is that I am not on stage proclaiming to be flawless and many diamonds would imply when they speak (and profit from) their tens of thousands of downlines. I am not earning a living by deceiving people and profiting from people I am supposed to be helping. But your upline diamonds are. Take a close look at the fruit on the WWDB tree.

Straight Answers?

 One of the humorous things about Amway IBOs is their ability to say a whole lot without having any substance. They'll talk about how great the business is and how much they have learned and then when you ask if they made any money, you either get dead silence or you get some answer about how they's seen a copy of a check from someone's upline diamond or something like that. But it's very rare that an IBO will be upfront about their earnings. Of course, I can understand that someone brand new might not have made a whole lot, but I have seen some IBOs outright lie and say they've been in Amway a month and they're making $5000 a month or some other tall tale like.

Even when discussing some Amway released information such as the average earnings of an IBO, you can hear all kinds of excuses provided by Amway IBOs. They will make excuses like most IBOs do nothing. As if that isn't a problem in itself. Or they make stupid analogies about people signing up for a gym membership and then not doing anything. As if owning a business and exercising are the same thing. I even hear questionable claims about how so many people sign up as IBOs to get lower prices. I chuckle when I hear that because Amway's prices in general, are not competitive with big retailers. I believe that is because Amway must add the cost of IBO bonuses in the cost of their goods and services. While an IBO might save from the full retail price of Amway products, you can (in most cases) find the same or a similar product cheaper online or at Walmart.

Another area where IBOs like to divert the discussion is when the discussion is about the success rate of IBOs in general. Based on Amway's own numbers, less than one half of one percent of IBOs reach the level of platinum. Platinum is the level where allegedly, an IBO either breaks even or starts to make some net profit. It would depend on whether the IBO is involved in the tools and to whet level of participation. But IBOs like to downplay this fact as if people simply did not work hard enough or did not learn enough, rather than simply acknowledging that the system itself might be flawed. 

The last area I see issues is when talking about selling products. I suspect that product sales to no IBOs is relatively small. I believe there may be some exceptional people who can sell, but people in general, do not like to or do not possess the skills to sell products. Yet I see IBOs making all kinds of stories about "selling" to customers. I rarely get a straight answer about product sales as well. The fact that many Amway IBOs can't give a straight answer is quite telling.

Wednesday, June 25, 2025

Family Reunion Function?

 Very soon, many IBOs, particularly in WWDB, will be gearing up for a major function called "family reunion". I still recall attending this function as an IBO. It was held in the Rose Garden in Portland Oregon. The Rose garden seats between 15 to 20 thousand people. Although the area behind the stage is closed off, the court area is full of seats so it could possibly hold up to 20,000 IBOs or more. Amway apologists like to denounce the experience of critics, but they conveniently overlook the fact that many critics sat in crowds in tens of thousands of IBOs. My sponsor, in the years before I joined, spoke of an FED function at the (then) Seattle Kingdome where there were about 50,000 IBOs in attendance.

For me, family reunion was the most expensive function I had attended. The ticket itself was $250 and being in Hawaii, a round trip airfare ticket was quite expensive as July is peak travel. We also had to dish out for hotels, rental cars and meals. I believe my total expenditure for this function was more than $1200 when it was said and done. Now I know that not all IBOs live in Hawaii but even if you live in California, you likely had to fly or drive some serious miles to get to this function. I'm not sure where the function is held now as my understanding is that there aren't nearly as many IBOs attending anymore.

The function was about hype and excitement. The speakers told tales of struggles that was overcome by perseverance and the never quit attitude. That you will make it one day if only you will stick it out and never quit. Of course, what goes on unnoticed by many is that in a crowd of 15 to 20 thousand IBOs, only a handful of diamonds can be supported by a group of that size. At the time, I didn't stop to do the math myself or I would have seen through the line that anyone can go diamond.

The Saturday evening portion of the function was about some diamonds flaunting their alleged wealth. We saw displays of jewelry, fabulous vacations, mansions and sports cars. Of course, the diamonds never said they actually owned these goodies. Makes me wonder if some of them rented fancy cars to bring to the function as some of the diamonds probably could not afford it. After the function ended for the night, our upline expected the group to go without sleep trying to "associate" with the diamonds and other pins. We were told that their success would somehow transfer to us if we spent enough time with them.

Of course, everyone went home all fired up but within a week or two, it was business as usual with no noticeable growth in anyone's group.

My question to IBOs or information seekers. Did you get what was sold with these functions? Did your PV go up in a sustainable manner? Did you start getting a flow of new downline? Was the money spent on this function ever made up by increased business? If you cannot answer yes to these questions, then what was the purpose of attending? Looking back, I'd have to say that in a business sense, the function was a waste of time and money, which is ironically what most people join the business for but end up with less of when they get involved.

Amway Psychology?

 The Psychology Behind The Presentation

I’m not sure whether this plan was carefully crafted out or whether it just evolved, but the way some uplines show the plan is cleverly designed to suck people into their systems. If you aren’t aware or careful, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of the presentation. The presentation is full of deception, and I will try to point out these items in my analysis.

The speaker may talk about how he once thought he was “doing okay” in life. That he was making a living and able to meet his financial obligations. But he thought there might be more. One day he saw the plan and it changed his life. He did not realize he had gotten into a rut of going to work and going home every day and looking forward to his 2 weeks off each year. (This is relatable for many) That time and money are so important in life. Control of time and money is the key to success. Many people have lots of money but work all day and nite. Or people have time but are broke and can’t do much. The speaker might mention dreams or goals such as having an extra $500 a month or more. What would you do for an extra $500 a month. What about an extra $50,000 a year? Wouldn’t it be nice to have the wife stay home with the kids instead of leaving the family to go to work? Like the “Leave it to Beaver” days? (This gets the women excited)

The speaker will likely mention something about the economy and how prices always go up. The speaker may mention the 4 “I’s” that suck money out of your paycheck. The four I’s are Interest, Income Tax, Insurance and Inflation. The speaker may talk about how the government will take their cut and so on until you get your “net”. The speaker may mention how so many Americans are dead or broke by age 65, and that social security will collapse. (This instills fear in many people).

The speaker might also go on to mention how so many marriages are falling apart in the US because of financial stress. That couples work so hard that they have no family time and it hurts marriages. That people work so many hours these days that they are married to their desks. The “manager” of the office is the first one there and the last one to go home. That despite all of this work and effort, people are falling into debt. Credit cards maxed out, loans, trying to keep up with the Joneses. (Many people can relate to this)

But now, because he was looking for opportunity/open minded one day, he saw an opportunity. This opportunity changed his life and can do the same for you! The speaker now wakes up at the crack of noon. His wife stays home with him and the kids. They take nice vacations and they do what they want when they want. (Of course, who doesn’t? But is this true?) The opportunity takes advantage of the internet and allows you to leverage your time and money so that you can create a residual walk away income. (But nobody walks away do they?)

This is approximately the point in the presentation where they mention “Amway” At this point, the speaker will defend Amway, stating that if you can make money, does it matter.? If you can save money, does it matter? The speaker may go into the product line and mention partner stores and will likely show a 6-4-2 plan or a variation of it. In every case, they will show a best case scenario, not what is likely. Many prospects will leave thinking “all I need is six”. They don’t understand how unlikely it is to sponsor six platinums and there is no mention of the retention rates, the income most IBOs can expect, and firm questions will be deflected to the prospect’s inviter. The speaker may also discourage you from speaking to friends and family as they may have a bad experience but the diamond is successful and knows more about Amway than your family and friends.

Joe’s commentary: So the speaker becomes very relatable from the start. His situation in life will be like many in the audience. He will talk about doing okay,. But wanting more or looking for more. He talks about debts and many in the audience will also relate. They get people to think about dream cars or vacations. He talks about walk away income, but doesn’t mention that very very few ever make significant money and apparently, not many actually walk away either. They say you will make money and save money by doing the business. It’s hard to argue against that,.except most people will not make money or save money. In fact most people, if they participate fully or partially in the training system, they will lose money. For the dedicated IBOs, many of them LOSE LOTS OF MONEY. The plan is crafted out to sound sensible and relatable, but many IBOs will give it a try and shortly after, will realize that the system doesn’t work, that the reputation of Amway IBOs is soiled and sponsoring people or even getting people to see the plan is a barrier that most people simply cannot overcome. At least if you know what’s going on, you may be able to avoid the trap.

Tuesday, June 24, 2025

Amway Saves Marriages?

 http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/will-amway-make-you-annoying/comment-page-12/#comment-92192


■DoAsISay on January 8th, 2012 9:31 pm
I finally decided to search the web after being out of Amway now since February 2011. I was hesitant to do so because I had been told not to so many times by my uplines that there is negative on the internet even about Mother Teresa. That was the “line” that they used to trick me into not doing my research. I am a college graduate with a bachelor's degree in accounting and I was taught to always research a company to learn more about them if you are going to be involved with them. Anyways, I am glad that I did because I now realize that I am not the only one who disagrees with Amway and their approaches to “the business”.

A little more background about my situation which I’m sure is not unique to many others who have been in Amway. My girlfriend and I were introduced to this business by a friend of my girlfriend and her husband. From the presentation that was shown to me I thought that it sounded VERY easy to do. I was told that I only needed 3 friends out of my 200 contacts in my phone to want to save money and make money at the same time. That was the first lie that I later found out. First of all, we didn't save any money. We threw away over $7000 and saw under $300 return. How exactly am I saving money? Secondly, IF, IF you get (trick) 3 friends to signed up, you have a lot more work to do than that. Try 50 people and by the time u get 50 people involved, 48 of those will have quit once they finally realize that you took advantage of them and weren’t straight forward with them.

So, time went on and I hung around and observed the behaviors of people in Amway and how they talked. I said to myself, I want to be nothing like these people. They all sounded the same to me and it was just a little weird. Finally, I realize that they have all been brainwashed how to think, how to spend their money, who they spend their time with, and how they spend their time. Amway with the help of the “EDUCATION” has completely taken control of the lives of many, many naive, weak minded, gullible, ignorant, or too trusting (you fill in the blank) individuals who worship their upline like they are God. Sure I thought it was cool that I knew a millionaire and got to hang out at his house and all, but Im not going to empty my bank account for anyone! How about this line…”You don’t make money FROM your friends when they get involved, Your making money WITH your friends”. WHAT?!? Last time I checked anyone you sponsor in the business, you collect their business volume from the stuff they buy and get a kickback from those purchases. I believe that’s called making money FROM your friends. They have another sneaky tactic that they use to conceal the truth. “You’re not making money from your friends, Amway is paying you for driving volume to their website. Ok, Yeah that’s still making money from your friends. Im not an idiot and your blender of words and phrases don’t have any effect on me.

Back to November 2010, I got married to my girlfriend I was in the business with and shortly after she became an Ambot as I’ve heard people refer to it. In February 2011, i had enough of it and decided to cut my loses and get out. My wife didn’t share the same thoughts and feelings though because she had been soaking in every last drop of the expensive “Education” we were receiving. Up until the point of me getting out of the business since I had known her, we NEVER had an argument. We were inseparable and much in love. That all changed as time progressed. We started disagreeing and this horrible person came out of her as I never seen before. She physically hit me on 3 occasions and we would fight, mostly her, as I like to be calm and collective. I rather reason things out by gathering the facts and explaining my perspective. Her reasoning went out the door with her mind because everything out of her mouth was something about the business.

I spent many nights home alone waiting for her to get back from those stupid waste of time meetings. Eventually in October I had enough. We got in another fight and she asked me to leave, so I did! Now supposedly when a woman says leave, that means don't leave in translation, but I took it at face value and left. We are currently separated and in the process of filing for a dissolution. I never thought Amway could destroy a marriage like that, but I’ve read so many sad stories where has done just that. Like I said, I’m sure my story isn’t a unique one, but I just wanted to share in hopes that I can TRULY HELP people steer clear of this plague. Not only will it empty your bank account, waste time you could be living your life and enjoying the company of family and true friends, it will destroy your relationships with the ones you love. These people that were in our business call themselves Christians, yet they can easily let a marriage be destroyed and not even flinch. Greed and lies are all I see in these people!

I would like to sit my wife down and show her some information so maybe, just maybe she will snap out of it, but I feel like she is so programmed at this point that I won’t be able to get her to read it. If anybody actually reads my entire story (I know its long) and has any advice on getting her out let me know. I got nothing to lose at this point since I’ve pretty much lost the love of my life.

The Iceberg Effect?

 I was in discussion on another forum and a comment was made about Amway being an iceberg, because you see the shiny clean ice on the top, but you do not see the majority of the iceberg. Or in other words, the diamonds show you the fancy suits, jewelry, cars, mansions, jets and what you don't see is the financial carnage that takes place in their downlines at times. My former upline would tell audiences that they could skip meals to buy more standing orders because you might hear the one thing that could make your business explode.  Who would be so ruthless as to suggest that your kids skip a meal so you can buy more tools and function tickets?

Sure, on standing orders, you won't hear too much of the unethical and "wrong" teaching, because some of this is monitored by Amway, but it's the night owls and smaller group meetings where the real teaching is disseminated. This is where you are told to practically sell your soul to achieve in Amway. This is where the teaching comes in where you should be purchasing excessive amounts of tools in order to succeed. This is where you are told to never miss a function unless it's for your own funeral. A newbie or casual observer won't see these things but if you ever commit to becoming a business builder, this is likely to become your world.

You don't see the backstage at functions and meetings. Former rubies and platinums have made commentary about the diamonds literally laughing about how gullible the downline are. You don't see the where the cash collected at the meetings and functions go. There had been some past comments about literally, suitcases of cash leaving the premises. If your upline has a mansion and a fleet of nice cars, it's likely that your tools money played a significant part in your diamond obtaining it.

It's a simple conclusion. The tools have a higher markup than Amway products and have fewer beneficiaries to split up the bonus. A $7.00 Amway product might cost $3.00 or so to make and the rest will be bonus money split up by the layers of IBOs. Whereas a $7.00 cd might take 50 cents to produce and only platinums and higher receive any compensation from this source of income. But rank and file IBOs rarely ever see a true and transparent picture of this business. It is shrouded in secrecy, just like the underside of an iceberg. I challenge IBOs to be real businessmen and women and ask upline the tough questions about where the money is made. Do not accept rhetoric and anecdotal stories. In real business, schedule C business tax returns are the normal way for verification of business income. If you are going to "invest" your hard earned money into the system to the benefit of upline, you should demand this information.

Would any of you purchase a conventional business from someone without proof that it is profitable? Why would an Amway business be any different?

Monday, June 23, 2025

Upline Indoctrination?

 I used to follow the blog of a current fired up WWDB IBO. The things he writes about indicates that the exact same teaching exists, that existed back in the 1990's when I was an IBO. This is despite the fact that Amway implemented an accreditation of the AMOs (tool sellers) and despite claims from Amway and WWDB apologists who claim that things have changed for the better. Below is a list of excerpts from the blog that make it evident to me that WWDB and Amway are basically the same now as they were many years ago.  FYI, this IBO quit some years ago and his blog is now gone, but the things he writes about clearly shows the kinds of thing he's being taught by upline.  It's almost scary to read what he parrots.  


http://expeditionoftruths.com/ (Now defunct)   This IBO named "Shaun" is no longer active but I'm posting this so you can see the level of indoctrination Shaun must have gone through to make this post. which is in quotes;


""On another note, I highly doubt someone like John Maxwell would put his integrity and reputation at risk by associating with World Wide Dreambuilders, you know considering he’s the worlds greatest teacher on Leadership. But what does John know eh?

I look at the motivational and teaching conferences that World Wide Group puts on and I get excited when tickets go on sale. I get excited because I love the association and atmosphere of the whole event.

Either way I see training, conferences, motivation the same if it’s my daytime job, or my part time business. I know I get more value out of WWDB events as they help move our business forward and help motivate us for the next three months. We need motivation, everyone does, so what’s so wrong with that? Many people make some good money with motivational speaking, and I’ll gladly pay for that if it gets me moving.

Looking forward to the future we are pumped to hit Double Eagle Ruby late next year at which time I’ll be stepping away from my job so that I never have to work for another man’s dream and give my 1st best to them. I know that we will work hard at this so that my kids will always have me at home when they need me and not have to wait for me to come home from work. I look forward to the days that we can take our kids out to the ski hill during the weekday and not the weekend when it’s jam packed.

One thing I really love about being on the board or plugging guests into other plans is the atmosphere people have. I absolutely love walking into someone's house where they have a dream board or goals written all over the place. These are people that are moving on. I’ve posted this before where if you want to achieve your dreams and goals then WRITE IT DOWN.

Our free time is slowly dwindling as our employers demand more and more of this time at the least amount they can pay us. It's sad what our society has become.
This is part of the reason why my wife and I build this business. I no longer want to be on call or be tied to my blackberry for work.
We will be attending Moving Up right before Family Reunion which we are pumped for. Moving Up is a leadership incentive for achieving Double Eagle or 7500 PV.

So we will be renting here in Edmonton for the next 2-3 years and then move out to Kelowna where we have been wanting to raise our family. As we move out there we will rent for a few more years, get an idea of where we want to build or buy a place and build it in cash. Mock me, say it won’t happen, say I’m crazy, but I will do it. The more you say I cannot do it, the more it will just fuel my fire to do it. So bring it on

This weekend we started planning for my wife’s freedom day. What is “Freedom Day” ? Freedom Day is the day that she gets the choice of working or not. Sure she could continue to work, have some other man control when she can have lunch, when she has to show up to work, how late to stay… OR, she can choose not go to work anymore and decide to wake up when she wants and pretty much do whatever she wants with her day.

A healthy business always has its ups and downs and World Wide Dream builders is on the rise again. Mark my words there will be people from our area and other areas going into Diamond Qualification. The people on the outside who are no longer building this business have no idea.

I think the biggest thing I took away from last night was to not let anyone steal your dream. What does that mean? Means no matter what kind of dream or goal you have set for your life don’t let someone tell you that you can’t. ‘Can’t’ is a negative/broke person’s word. ‘Can’t’ is for the weak-minded people that just use excuses for their failures and they try to bring you down by telling you that you cannot do something.

Another thing more related to our business is that every business has negative stuff about it, someone is always willing to write something about anything. Check out one of the largest companies in the world, Walmart, and do a quick search on Google about how many law suits they’ve had. All successful companies have this and Amway Global isn’t the first OR the last.

It was due to the fact my attitude and mentality has shifted from being a career focused person to an entrepreneur focused person building a business that will eventually let me walk away from my job so I can focus on other things such as my family and wife.

These guys have stepped away from their full-time jobs because of this business we are in and my wife and I will also be doing the same in a very short time with hard work, determination and persistency and consistency! There is no option of failure and no option of turning back… there is only… FREEDOM!

How many times have you heard someone say “I Love My Job”? Probably a lot. You know what though, this is the biggest lie. Why? Well do you love your job more than spending time with your family? Do you love your job more than spending time with your wife? Do you love your job more than travelling to different places around the world? If you said yes, you need to get your head checked.

Wouldn’t you rather work your tail off for 2-3 years so that you can have the rest of your life to yourself so you do not have to trade time for money? Think about it.""

What Are Your Chances In Amway?

 One thing that many Amway promoters don't like to talk about is what your realistic chances of success are. I will define success as Diamond because that is what the outcome of the 6-4-2 and 2-5 year plan. Of course, you may be able to earn some income at lower levels, but my understanding is that diamond is where the real money from Amway and the tools start rolling in. And I can also understand why people promoting Amway do not discuss your realistic chances of winning. Afterall, lottery promoters do not show you the millions of losers, they only parade the winners in front of you.

Many people, including Amway enthusiasts will agree that many IBO do little or nothing. Some people never even place an order or make any attempt to do any business. For the purpose of this article, I am not speaking about these folks. I am talking about people who actually put in some effort to the business.  However, to not mention that a significant number of people register as IBOs and do nothing would be deceptive in discussing the overall picture of the Amway business world.

For many people who want to make an earnest effort, they will purchase and hopefully sell a few items with the goal of reaching 100 PV. For that effort, you will receive approximately $10 from Amway and whatever profit you might have earned by selling products. Here's the catch. You will likely need to pay website fees in excess of the $10 you earn from Amway. For the more dedicated IBOs, you may be paying for voicemail, standing orders, book of the month, and possibly attending functions. These expenses will exceed your income month after month unless you are able to increase your volume by selling enough products and/or sponsoring downline who buy and sell products.

Because Amway has to include the IBO bonuses in their prices, the products come at a premium price. Thus, sales to non-IBOs are relatively low. Without sales to non-IBOs, the only other way to generate more volume is to sponsor people who will buy and sell products. But due to past unethical IBO behavior, getting people to see the Amway sales and marketing plan may be a challenge. Also, most IBOs are unable to sponsor a single downline.

Some Amway enthusiasts will claim that if you do their CORE steps for 2-5 years consistently, that you are likely to succeed. Sounds easy, but because of the factors I have identified, some of these steps are impossible to do consistently. It's not like walking a mile each day where you have control of the steps. People will likely fail in showing the plan and sponsoring others because they cannot find enough people who are willing to see an Amway plan. Many, possibly most other IBOs can and will do certain steps consistently such as listening to a CD daily and reading a success book. But because of a spotty reputation in the US, IBOs will very likely fail to be able to show enough plans to succeed.

Your realistic chance of success? My informed guess is far less than 1 tenth of 1 percent. That's the likelihood of going diamond. Your chance of going platinum? My informed guess will be less than 1/4 of 1 percent. If you think you can beat those odds, go for it. For most people, it might be wise to look into other opportunities.

Sunday, June 22, 2025

Bait And Switch?

 I believe Amway is used as a bait and switch scam by the diamonds and other higher up pins. They show off luxurious lifestyles, mansions, sports cars, jet skis and other displays of wealth. Most of us familiar with the pitch have heard the lines before. 2-5 years, part time effort, built it right, build it once. Do what we did, and you can have what we have (quotes from a diamond). Early retirement, making major purchases in cash, financial freedom. I mean, who wouldn't want that? Apparently, many do and are willing to give Amway a shot, even if they think their chances might not be good. I believe the same reasoning goes into increased purchases right before the Powerball lottery numbers are released.

But the insidious part of the Amway business is that the diamonds lure people into the business under the pretenses that "anyone can succeed" or that everyone can succeed, but only if you follow their foolproof "system" consisting of cds, voicemail, books, seminars and what some call "the core steps". What is really disgusting about this entire process is that so many good and talented people have come and gone through the system, only to fail, despite doing what they were advised or told to do by upline. My former sponsor for example, sponsored over 100 people and was uber hard core for many years. He peaked at platinum (non Q12) and fell back and has never reached that level again. It definitely was not due to a lack of effort or not doing things right.

My sponsor was not alone. I did what was advised and went up to 4000 PV, only to find that there was no net profit. I wised up and got out of the business shortly after that. The truly sad thing is that many people hang onto Amway because they feel like failures if they leave or that they have no other hope of financial success without Amway. This is also a byproduct of upline teaching that most of us have no chance to be financially successful without Amway. Ironically, the vast majority of people would be no worse for wear or better off without any brush with Amway. Most people snap out of it quickly, but some people bite hard like my former sponsor, who is still toiling away after more than 25+ years. What's worse is my sponsor was/is a physician, and he is probably farther away from financial freedom than most people is a similar occupation.

So, in summarizing the scam, the diamonds lure people into Amway with great displays of luxury and wealth. They say that anyone and everyone can possibly achieve the same by following their system and by participating in their tools system (cds, books, seminars). What ticks me off is that these hucksters claim all the credit for any tiny amounts of success, but blame anything less than success on the individual. They'll call it personal responsibility. These diamonds are liars and cheats. They have never been held accountable for the failures of even the most earnest of IBOs who followed their system. The excuse being that the IBO did not work hard enough or they didn't do thing exactly right. That is total BS.

The vast majority of people fail in Amway because Amway is designed that way. Their common 6-4-2 plan consists of 79 IBOs. One is a platinum and the rest are not. When you consider that these 79 IBOs are all active and receiving bonuses, this is not a realistic group. A more realistic group will be 200 or more downline IBOs. Many doing little or nothing and the rest scraping up enough PV to make someone a platinum. Thus, one of two hundred is one half of one percent. That's about the going average of success for someone reaching platinum, and this was confirmed on Amway.com. Imagine the rate of success for diamond? It's a tiny fraction of one percent. And that's just to reach diamond, not to maintain it.

Come join Amway and get rich. That's the pitch. The reality is the diamonds and above are getting rich selling their downline training on how to success in Amway. A classic bait and switch scam. The tools business is the "real" business with higher profit margins than Amway products and less people sharing in the profits. Amway is just the front for the tools business to exist. I believe this post clearly explains how Amway is used as a bait and switch scam. Beware!

The Catch?

 In the Amway business, most active IBOs are advised to trust upline. To think of upline as a coach or a mentor. These upline mentors or coaches are supposed to have your best interest at heart and they will guide you to success if only you will be open to learning. Many uplines, including my former uplines used to coin the term "copy" or duplicate. If you can do that you will be successful. Even the simplest of people can copy. The upline may crack a joke about getting thru school by copying. Thus, many IBOs follow exactly what their upline advises them to do.

But then uplines turn the responsibility away from themselves. Many Amway defenders will also claim that downline should not simply follow the advice of upline. They may make a ridiculous claim that standing orders and functions contain advice that must be discerned. That information is like a buffet. You pick and choose what you need and discard the rest. If you are a new IBO or prospect, let me tell you that is a load of guano (bird crap) that is being heaped on you. Your upline is touted as having experience and wisdom in the Amway business, which is why you are paying good money for voicemail, books, cds/audio files, and functions. So why would their advice be something you pick and choose? How would a new IBO know what to pick and choose?  If they really believe this, then the massive failure rate of IBOs is more understandable, based on this kind of teaching.

Imagine hiring a professional guide for a trek in the wilderness. The guide is supposed to be an experienced outdoorsman, perhaps an expert. So, if he recommends that you eat certain plants or fruits, you trust that he is going to guide you right. Imagine eating something that made you sick to your stomach, only to have the guide tell you that he just points out plants and fruits and you have to discern which is good for you and which is not. You would fire the guide and tell everyone you know not to use that guide anymore.  But this is what upline does and somehow mostly goes unnoticed by IBOs and prospects.

But here we have these "systems" such as Network 21, WWDB or BWW that have been "guiding" IBOs for up to 20 years or more in some cases, and the number of diamonds are negligible. Sure, there might be new platinums, but many tool consuming platinums have been found to be losing money or making very little money for their efforts. What's more, it would appear that Amway is losing ground in sales. Amway's sales dropped from 11.8 billion in 2013 down to 8.6 billion in 2017. One can reasonably guess that any new platinums that break are simply replacing the volume for a platinum that no longer exists or a platinum that no longer qualifies. My former upline diamond appears to have all new qualifying platinums from the time I was in the business and here's the kicker. My former diamond had 6 downline rubies. As far as I know, none of these rubies are qualified as platinum anymore, much even in the business.

Uplines also program their downline to take responsibility for the failure. Thus, you have IBOs who did everything that was asked of them, only to fail. Yet these IBOs often blame themselves for their failure. It is my opinion that former IBOs who did everything asked of them only to fail should file a formal complaint against their LOS with the better business bureau. Amway defenders like to think that a lack of formal complaints means that the system works when clearly, there is no unbiased substantial evidence to suggest that the system works. It looks like some succeed in spite of the system, not because of.

The catch in all this is uplines skirting responsibility for the outcomes of those they "mentor" and profit from. IBOs should ask if upline really cared about their success, why do you have to pay for any help that you receive from your upline diamond?

Saturday, June 21, 2025

A Failing Business?

 After years of studying Amway and blogging, I've noticed something taught by IBO leaders that simply do not make any sense. It doesn't make sense business wise, and it just doesn't add up. I know that sometimes, you need to think outside of the box and go against the grain to succeed, but some of the IBO practices are simply insane and it's no wonder that so many IBOs fail in their pursuit of their Amway "dream".  They think upline is guiding them to success but in reality, upline is guiding them to buy more tools and functions and to never quit.  In other words, the diamonds teach IBOs to transfer resources to them giving the diamonds financial security.

Most IBOs never sponsor a single downline and relatively few products, as far as I know, are sold to non-IBOs. These are the reasons why most IBOs do not turn a profit but for some reason, many IBOs still seem to think that training materials are worth the money they pay for them.  Training materials are mostly redundant and motivational in nature, rather than offering serious and successful techniques to help someone succeed in Amway.

Buy from yourself. A fairly common practice. It is okay to support your business, but if you are the primary or only customer, you won't make money. Any profit you might turn is coming out of your own pockets. I don't know of any successful stores where the primary customers are the owner and the store employees. Yet some IBOs think this is how they will succeed.  It's silly but it is what some upline teach.

Sponsor others. So, you are struggling as an IBO. But the key to success is to try to open other stores by sponsoring. As a famous Amway apologist likes to claim, you do not get paid for sponsoring others. So why is this the emphasis for so many IBOs? Why would you think that opening more stores will make you successful? Yes, it is a way to possibly generate more volume, but your "success" will only come by having a bunch of struggling businesses under you. Is that how you wish to succeed? Also, the quest to sponsor others is probably how Amway got a bad reputation when IBOs tricked people into attending recruitment meetings and/or being deceptive when inviting someone to see the plan.

Folks, you need customers to succeed. I live in Hawaii and when tourism is slow, our local economy suffers. It's a very similar concept to your Amway business. Without customers circulating money through your business, you will eventually go out of business.

Dreams?

 One of the things that Amway leaders use to attract new IBOs is to talk about the dreams that these folks have. They may talk about how having a job will wear you out and dreams that you once had as a child or young adult gets suppressed and/or completely forgotten. They try to revive some of these dreams in the hopes that they can convince prospects that Amway is the only way, or the easiest or best way to accomplish these dreams. They also try to instill the notion that people can choose to succeed in Amway. Being that success in Amway has so many variables out of the direct control of an IBO, nobody can simply choose to make it big in Amway any more than they can choose to win the lottery. And by the way, the chances of going diamond and maintaining it is about as remote as winning a lottery.

What is somewhat cruel is reviving dreams that for many, will never come to fruition, no matter how much work is done, and no matter how many tools are consumed. There are many instances where no matter how big the dream, it will never come to pass because of physical and financial limitations. For example, as a child, many of us had dreams of playing professional football, hockey or basketball, and living in the glory of winning. However, no matter how many hours you put in and no matter how hard you work, the vast majority of people will never be pro athletes. And even out of the ones who become pro athletes, very few are considered "elite".

Yet the Amway promoters will have people believe that just buying a few products and selling a few products and 2-5 years of "hard" work, people will join the financially elite in the world. As if home care and beauty and nutritional products moved from person to person is going to make you achieve your dreams. That you will quit your jobs and walk the beaches of the world while the cash rolls in by the barrel full. Sadly, many young people become attracted to a proposition that allows them a shortcut to retirement instead of working until age 62 or whatever the standard retirement age is. They are basically promoting false hopes and promises to the vast majority of people who get involved. I believe those who are deemed as "dream stealers" might be doing their family and friends a favor by stealing their dream, which will not come to pass anyway.

With about 1 out of 240 IBOs reaching platinum (the alleged break even point) and about 1 in 20,000 IBOs reaching diamond, the dream is a stretch indeed. Even for the select few who can overcome major challenges and hurdles, maintaining their status often becomes impossible and not worthwhile (many diamonds have quit).
Also, if you do make it, you will leave behind a trail of people who could not or did not come close to that level of success. It means that in many cases, your success will come at the expense of those you sponsor. It is why many claim that Amway is a legal pyramid.

Having dreams and goals is a good thing. But do you want to accomplish your ultimate dream by hurting (financially) those who trusted you and agreed to be your downline? Is it your dream to go diamond and have 500 to 1000 or more downline IBOs losing money? Is it your dream to be wealthy by exploiting people who trust you and believe that they can achieve the same level of success, when the opposite is true?

What is your dream? Are you willing to hurt others to achieve it? Your answer to this will say a lot.

Friday, June 20, 2025

IBO Or Customer?

 I've been debating with others about the concept of customers. Amway's defenders argue that IBOs are customers and holds the position that there are a lot of people who register with Amway simply to be customers. Now I don't know how anyone can possibly make that determination, but regardless of whether it's true or not, these folks are still considered IBOs. I don't want to debate the legal ramifications about the 1979 FTC ruling and the 70& rule, although the spirit of the rule was to prevent IBOs from buying their bonus. in the 2016 FTC ruling against Herbalife, the FTC said sales to distributors do not count as retail sales and required Herbalife to changes their operations because of this rule.

Amway apologists apparently contends that IBOs who purchase and then resell to downline are meeting the sales requirements and the downline are customers. Okay, let's go with that. But wait, IBOs do not buy and then resell to their downline. IBOs order directly from Amway do they not? If IBOs order directly from Amway, their upline gets some volume credit for downline purchases but the upline doesn't buy and then resell anything to downline. So, are IBOs actually making any sales to non IBOs, save for sympathetic friends and family?

If in fact, IBOs are not selling their goods, and are primarily self consuming them, it means that most of the upline bonus is basically generated from the pockets of the downline. I believe the tools business is a product pyramid as only IBOs are buying standing orders and attending functions. The lack of selling Amway products to the public would put the Amway business opportunity in pretty much the same category. I wonder what the FTC would rule today if that were the case? I wonder what the FTC would rule on the tools systems as it is today?

Something to think seriously about. If you are an Amway business owner, and you are selling little or nothing, where do you think your bonus comes from? It either comes from your own pockets, or it comes from taking advantage of your downline, who then pony up a portion of your bonus from their pockets. In a system such as this, the only way to maximize your bonus is to recruit as many downline as possible. Because the more people you can leverage, the more bonus you can get. The problem with this system is that people realize they aren't making money, and that paying in some cases, ridiculous high prices for "prestigious" soap and vitamins is not worth it, and they quit. When these folks lose their Amway dream of mansions and jets, they somehow lose their desire to keep making purchases.

If former IBOs kept on buying Amway goods, then Amway sales would climb pretty much every year as the former IBO's purchases coupled with current IBO purchases should keep going up, not down. But that's not really the case is it? In what business can the employees or company owners be the primary customers and prosper. The answer is none and Amway is not an exception.

My Job Is A Pyramid?

 One of the funny things I take issue with is how Amway uplines will create an us versus them mentality in the business. Thus, friends and family who care about you suddenly become "negative" and association with them should be limited or eliminated.  In some cases, people are discouraged from excellence in their jobs or professions because it takes the focus off of their Amway business. What I was told was to do my job, but my radar should always be on for new prospects. Some cross line IBOs turned down promotions at work because they did not want to have to work longer hours or take the focus off of their Amway businesses.

In some cases, the speaker at open meetings or functions will put down people's jobs. A commonly used acronym was J-O-B = "Just Over Broke". Some leaders also would say that my job was a pyramid because you will never earn more than the boss. A completely ridiculous comparison because someone's job has no relationship with how people view the Amway business (i.e. an Amway pyramid) and in a job, every employee gets paid and has a net gain at the end of the month. Not true in Amway. If IBOs only use voicemail for example, an IBO at 100 PV or less will already be at a loss, and that is not considering any other expenses that IBO may have. And while a job may have a corporate hierarchy, or chain of command, the business owner and CEO or manager earns their salary from customers, not directly from the pockets of their employees.

Some uplines will laugh about people's jobs, stating that they wake up at the "crack of noon". What these same uplines may not tell you is that they wake up at noon because they are up at 3:00 in the morning doing night owls for their groups and looking for recruits. These same uplines possibly can't do much with their downlines during the weekdays since their downlines mostly tend to have 9-5 jobs. So a diamond's job is basically working the night shift and weekends.

So, if you are of the opinion that nobody should criticize the Amway opportunity or IBO behavior, maybe uplines and IBOs should not criticize family and friends who disagree with or are not interested in the opportunity, and maybe the same uplines and IBOs should not criticize people who choose to work jobs. Don't most IBOs rely on their jobs as their Amway income is not sufficient to even pay for their Amway business related expenses?

Thursday, June 19, 2025

Amway The Negative Sum Game?

 In my informed opinion, the Amway opportunity as taught and run by the AMOs such as WWDB or Network 21 is a negative sum game.  In other words, the IBOs have X amount of dollars but the system's expenses such as standing orders, function tickets and other training related expenses eat up the resources of the IBOs and it's a a constant and massive drain of the IBO's resources.  This is in contrast to a perhaps poker game where maybe 7 players each bring $100 to the game.  At the end of the day, there might be several winners and losers but when the game ends, $700 still sits in the hands of the players, even if some of them might not have their original stake of $100.

In the IBO world of the AMOs, "serious" IBOs are expected to consume or possibly sell some products but generally, this process reduces the pool of resources that IBOs may possess, but because they receive goods for it, I don't view this aspect of the business as a negative sum game, although there could be debate as to whether these generic in nature products are worth the "premium" price that is often charged.

Now when you get into the tools and functions, this is where the IBO's resources are systematically drained with little to no tangible results.  Those who participate have their resources drained week after week, month after month and year after year if they "don't quit" which is what upline teaches.  In my previous example, a group of poker players might start out with $100 each, and a group of 7 players would have $700 and at the end of the game, they collectively leave with $700, which is a zero sum game.

In contrast, let's say a group of 7 IBOs all start the month with $500.  It they all consume/sell their defacto 100 PV quota, they likely have approximately $250 left after consuming 100 PV's worth of products.  Now, if these IBOs are dedicated to CORE, which is the teaching system these uplines use, then IBOs will spend money on standing order, books, audios, function tickets, meeting tickets, gas money, and possible voicemail.  At the end of the month, these same IBOs have likely zero dollars left.  Amway profits from the sale of products and the uplines profit from the sale of tools and function.  A zero sum game because at the end of the month, IBOs all have less money than they started with even if you disregard the expenses of moving/consuming 100 PV or more.  

Yes, there are times some exceptional IBOs might sponsor and grow their group enough to scrape out a net profit, but if you factor in the business expenses of their downline, then you once again have a net loss.  You could almost compare the AMOs to a casino and IBOs as gamblers.  There are occasional winners, some might even be big winners, but in the end, the house always wins.  In this case, it's the AMOs who win because they profit handsomely despite the fact that their system is so ineffective that the outcomes (IBO's success) seems more coincidental than anything.  Sort of like seeing those infomercials on money making systems where they trot out someone who might have experienced some degree of success, and you'll see a tiny caption on the bottom of your TV screen that says "unique experience, your experience may vary".

And for these reasons, Amway's motivational groups such as WWDB, BWW or Network 21 are running negative sum games where it is inevitable that the upline diamonds always win and the downline loses because the tools and functions expenses heaped upon IBOs systematically drains their resources week after week and month after month.  The lottery is a negative sum game as well, but the sad this about all this is that any significant success in Amway is similar to the odds of a lottery despite the fact that Amway the opportunity is supposed to be a legitimate business opportunity rather than a game of chance.

Wednesday, June 18, 2025

The Loophole?

 There's been some interesting debate, although not that recently recently on the James Randi Educational Forum (JREF). Most call Amway a scam and one prolific defender cites the point that IBOs are not Amway. And Amway doesn't sell training materials. While that is legally true, the owner of Amway, back in 1983 acknowledged that the sale of tools was, basically unethical and possibly illegal. However, inaction by the Amway corporation led to the heyday of the tool scam and financial abuse of downline. There's the loophole that covers Amway. IBOs are independent.  Therefore, Amway is not directly liable for what their distributors do.  

However, these same IBO leaders could not run free scamming downline if Amway were to intervene. I believe Amway doesn't take any apparent significant action for fear that these leaders would move their groups to another MLM or opportunity.  The result over the years is a lousy reputation in the US where the name Amway is associated with pyramid, scam and other undesirables. I suppose Amway has survived though, because of an alleged saying by PT Barnum. There's a sucker born every minute. I suppose there are enough pockets of young or unsuspecting people who can still be convinced to join, so it's business as usual.

Which brings to to the next point. Unfortunately, new IBOs are basically suckers. They pay a fee to Amway, in order to become an unpaid Amway salesperson. You absorb your own time and expenses in order to move Amway products, and if you move enough of them, you can get a minimal bonus. You also at your own time and expense, recruit other unpaid salespeople for Amway. Your reward for this is you get credited for a portion of their sales, provided they use or actually sell anything. Most IBOs do little or nothing so your efforts are usually in vain.

But the real trick is to have IBO leaders convince downline that voicemail and cds and live meetings (seminars) can actually help you succeed. There is zero unbiased evidence to suggest that this training or tools do anything but make handsome profits for the people who sell them. Even if many IBOs sign up and do nothing, there are enough serious ones to support the Pharoah diamond leaders. And food for thought, do IBOs really need voicemail in an age of email, twitter (X), facebook and other more efficient means of communication?

So yes, Amway IBOs are not Amway. Amway diamond leaders are not Amway.

But if Amway cannot or will not stop those who taint their name, then they simply must live with the reputation of being a scam or a pyramid. They can be legal to the letter of the law, but most people see it for what it is. Being legal doesn't necessarily mean ethical or moral. It is my opinion that when you sign up for Amway, you are nearly assured of losing money. It's not your fault though, it is the result of a bad system. I encourage everyone to do their due diligence before joining any business, Amway notwithstanding.

Tuesday, June 17, 2025

Success Speaks For Itself?

 I heard a great comment from a commentator on a related Amway blog. Basically, he said if IBOs were so successful, people would just naturally be attracted. And that's true! Where I live, the local electric company is an attractive place to work with a good salary and benefits package. When there's a handful of openings, you might get as many as 6,000 people applying for these positions. When the federal government hires for the local post office, you get thousands of applicants for a handful of jobs as well.

But IBOs have to justify their positions. The common ones are how Amway products are concentrated, or they have magical ingredients in their vitamins. It is my position that if these products were so good and the opportunity actually produced successful IBOs, there would be no need to be deceptive about the products or opportunity. The products could easily me marketed. In fact, customers would be seeking IBOs to find the products and there would be lines of people waiting to see the opportunity. But that isn't the case. Clearly, Amway IBOs use some degree of deception usually called the curiosity approach or outright lies.

Instead, IBOs themselves are the primary consumers of Amway products. Many IBOs are deceptive when inviting people to see the Amway plan. Some prospects are outright lied to when recruited for the Amway opportunity. The curiosity approach is still used by many, because mentioning "Amway" is more likely to get you funny looks than interest. If what I am writing is not true, why do IBOs need to deceive people? Why don't some IBOs open their books and display the financial success they claim to have? Why so secretive? Why aren't there hoards of new diamonds and emeralds each month? Instead, you mainly hear of the Amway growth in foreign countries. Most likely because the Amway name and reputation has not yet been soiled as it has in the US and Canada.

In the US, I see primarily the same old diamonds who were in control of the functions and systems from more than 20 years ago. In fact, factoring in diamonds who quit or dropped out, I believe there are fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO in the 1990s. Some of these diamonds also had some apparent financial difficulties. The opportunity is far from how it's promoted. Success speaks louder than words, and where North American Amway success is concerned, the silence is deafening!

Amway Is Unwinnable?

 When people see the Amway plan, it sort of makes sense. You need to find six people to go direct, in 2-5 years and you have residual and willable income for life. You are then financially free and can spend your days walking on exotic beaches while checks keep coming in. This is what lures many prospects to take a better look and maybe even test the waters and give Amway a shot. After all, who wouldn't be interested in financial freedom and the ability to fulfill some of your ultimate dreams? Only a fool would turn down such an opportunity right?

While Amway looks reasonable on paper, too many things derail this plan for financial freedom and untold wealth. Over the years I've been blogging, I've challenged Amway supporters to name a couple of people who are financially free and walking the beaches while income rolls in. Very predictably, nobody has identified a single person who achieved some high level in Amway and is sitting back relaxing while money keeps coming. We even see crown ambassadors passing away while still working the business.

So why can't IBOs achieve what they aspire to? Because in my opinion, the odds are stacked against them. Sure, a rare individual might go diamond but the occurrence is very rare and almost as rare as winning the lottery, even though Amway is not a game of chance. I will go and list the reasons why IBOs are playing a game they can't win, even though they think they can. That is the sad part, that the upline is motivating downline to "never quit" even though they will "never succeed".

The system is set up for very few to succeed. Even in the common 6-4-2 plan where everyone did enough to earn a bonus, there is one person at the highest level with 78 downline who earn less. In real life, most IBOs do little or nothing. At Amway.com, you can see income disclosures that show how few people reach the higher levels. It's a tiny fraction of 1% that reach the higher levels. Even reaching platinum is a lofty achievement and platinums might not even see a net profit due to business expenses.

Business expenses such as product packs, catalogs, cds, books, voicemail and functions add up to significant expenses in the course of a month. If you're hoping to achieve financial freedom, you'll be expected to participate in the teaching system and more than likely, these expenses will be the reason for your business losses. Beware of upline who encourage you to go in debt to purchase training.

The products in general are not competitive. Sure, the Amway IBOs may give you some pitch about products being concentrated or of high quality but let's face it, consumers don't care about high quality soaps and household cleaners. There is nothing wrong with the similar products that you can purchase at Target or WalMart at a fraction of the cost. When your products can't compete on a level playing field, on what basis do you expect to sell these products? For that reason, many IBOs become "self consumers" and wind up with no actual customers.

Amway's reputation is soured. Most people know or know someone who had a bad experience with Amway. Due to past IBO behavior, people have developed a negative view of Amway. People being tricked or lied to in the past may have contributed to this issue. Add that to the fact that so few people actually make money turns this business into an almost insurmountable challenge. Even those who achieve often find themselves out of qualification shortly after.

For these reasons, my conclusion is that the Amway opportunity is a game that IBOs simply cannot win, even for those who learn from upline and put forth tremendous effort. And the longer you play. the bigger your losses become. Do your due diligence before undertaking any business opportunity.

Monday, June 16, 2025

Diamonds Are Like "Miners"?

 A lot of people come and go in Amway, but many of those who come and go don't even notice the scam. They get sold on what they believe is a business opportunity that they can make some money at, or at the very least save some money on products that they would normally buy anyway. If they do it right, they can possibly make some "real" money and with some hard work, you can build it right and have the option one day of walking away from Amway and living off ongoing residual income from Amway. It sounds reasonable and therein lies the scam.  

For years, I have challenged people to name 2-3 people, aside from the Amway owners, who joined, built the business "right" and was able to walk away and retire with ongoing residual income, enough to be financially free forever. Not a single person has been able to name and confirm that even a single person has done this. I believe it's all a lie and part of the scam. Amway's distributor force turns over about 50% each year. How can you build a residual income empire when half (or more) of your downline quits each year, and most quit in less than a year, not counting those who join and don't do a thing.  I believe Amway diamonds trade their 9-5 jobs for the night shift. They work at night and into the morning hours because they are working to replace people who quit and to support downline platinums who might struggle or fail to re-qualify for that level. If upline says they are working for the love of their downline, I call BS on that. If walking away and enjoying life was an option, why hasn't anyone chosen it?  Surely a few people would have wanted to quietly retire and enjoy life with money money than they know what to do with right?

Now you could argue that a diamond's "work" isn't that bad and they aren't reporting to a boss. And that could be true, but I imagine the pressure of churning people in and out to keep qualifying can be stressful in itself. If you live on an island like me, you can eventually have trouble finding new people to work with. In 1997 or so, there were a bunch of diamonds in Hawaii and they all seemingly moved to the mainland. Now I'm not sure why but my upline diamond was Scott Harimoto, who loved the ocean and the beaches. Yet he moved to Washington state last I heard. I believe they needed new grounds to mine, just like gold miners.  The grounds they worked ran out of gold so they needed to find new mining grounds?  I don't know this for sure, but it makes sense based on my informed knowledge of how the business works.

The next part of the scam is how IBOs will tell you about Amway's generous money back guarantee. 100% they'll tell you. What they don't tell you is that the guarantee is only on some of the Amway products and the sign up fee. The cds, books, voicemail and functions are not sold or run by Amway. And these expenses can be very significant over a period of time.  IBOs and prospects need to know this. You can lose thousands and get back pennies on the dollar asking for a refund on the sign up fee and perhaps a few products. 

Also, IBOs and prospects are often shown only the very best case scenario (such as going diamond) but not told that your chance of being struck by lightning is much higher than your chance of going diamond, even though going diamond is not a random event. A real life and likely scenario is getting in and trying hard for a while, and then quitting with some business losses. At least if you know this and still try anyway, you will have done so with full disclosure.

Lastly, it's insidious in my opinion, for upline to tell you to trust them and to do as they say, and then turn around and tell IBOs that failure is their responsibility. That they didn't work hard enough or do things just right. That sure isn't what they are preaching when recruiting you into the business. They are saying how sharp you are and how you're likely to tear up the business. But it's just another facet of the scam. I've outlined the parts of the opportunity that I believe are scams, but I'm sure it's not limited to my point of view.

Good luck if you read this and join anyway.

False Income Claims?

 One of the things that is so common on this blog and others is IBOs passing by, making big income claims without a shred of evidence. IBOs will tell you that it's none of your business, or that what they earn is not reflective of what you might earn. I believe it's very relevant. As a prospect, I would want to know what the typical IBO might earn. If I were going to open a Subway franchise, I would want to know what my likely earnings would be. In Amway, they only show you best case scenario and not what is likely or typical. Of course this is to make the opportunity more attractive than it really is in hope of getting you to sign up.

Look at an interesting comment from an anonymous blogger from India:

"Hi i wish to tell you that i am a scientist and full time into research. I have the time for my hobbies like bowling, horse riding etc. But the big news is that i am also at emerald level in Amway. Now what do you have to say about that Mr Joe(un)cool?????????"

If you'll notice, the commenter is basically saying he has a full time job, but enjoys his hobbies all the while running an emerald business. Then he also tosses in a minor insult towards Joecool while he's at it. Now we know there is documentation that many platinums do not make any money (net), therefore, an emerald likely doesn't make that much from Amway. I'm sure a decent job will net you more money than the average emerald.

Also, I call BS on this claim. Someone who is emerald would likely be burning the midnight oil churning out new IBOs to maintain the business and trying to push towards diamond. I'll give the anon one things. the name of Amway hasn't been completely ruined in India as it basically has been in the US and Canada. But I'll toss in one more thing. An emerald, even if making a net profit, likely has several hundreds of downline who are losing money because of functions and other tools that ironically, are designed to help an IBO succeed.

I wonder why IBOs are taught to be deceptive? Why can't they speak honestly about Amway and what they earn from Amway? Is it against Amway rules or do the uplines want to hide something that is painfully obvious? I know that WWDB, my former LOS, taught IBOs to "fake it till you make it". Translated, that meant to lie about your Amway income and to make yourself look successful, even if you had no money to put food on your table.

So which is it? False/inflated income claims or outright lying? You decide.

Sunday, June 15, 2025

(Upline's) Dreams Come Tryue?

 One of the issues I have with the Amway plan is that the newest IBO, possibly the one who does the most "Work", receives the smallest compensation. Amway pays about 32% of their income back in the form of bonuses. An IBO who does 100 PV receives a 3% bonus and somewhere, uplines and sponsors receive the rest. Some of the upline may not have even met the IBO who actually did the work. Is that really fair and is that a level playing field? What do some of these uplines do to deserve the lion's share of the bonus you worked to get? Yes, the upline diamond may show the plan in an open meeting, which may help you, but then again, you pay for entrance into that meeting.

Many uplines will talk about dreams and fulfilling your dreams. But if an IBO would stop and think for a moment, you can easily see that you are building the dreams of your upline, and not your own. You receive a tiny portion of the bonus for the volume that you move, and then in addition, if you are on the system, then you are also paying upline in the form of tool purchases for the privilege of giving them bonuses with your product purchases.

It is why your upline diamonds can parade around on stage with designer suits and show you (pictures) of their fancy cars and mansions and other toys. It is because they are cashing in on your efforts. You are making their dreams come true. Your dedication to moving volume and purchasing standing orders are fulfilling dreams. The upline dreams. Yes, someday you can hope to have your own group of downline to exploit for your own benefit, but unless you are adding members to your group regularly, you will never achieve the kinds of dreams that uplines talk about. In the meantime though, you are definitely helping someone upline achieve their dreams with every function you attend. Ironically, the upline leaders will tell you to never quit, even if they don't know your personal circumstances and/or how your business is progressing or failing.

Here's a challenge for IBOs and/or prospects who are being recruited into the Amway business. 100 PV will cost around $300 a month and dedication to the tools system will cost you around $150 to $250 a month on average. Would you not be better off simply writing a check to your upline for $100 and not even joining? Would you not be better off staying home and watching television instead of joining? If you read all of the information available on this blog and still decide to join, good luck to you, but remember this: Whose dreams are being fulfilled by your participation?
Yours or your upline?

Saturday, June 14, 2025

The Amway Job?

 Amway IBOs like to call themselves "Independent Business Owners". But when you sit down and think about this for a minute, I believe that the Amway opportunity is more like a job. As an IBO, you are basically acting as a commissioned salesperson without any benefits coming from the Amway corporation. It's great for Amway as they only pay you for products that are moved. You receive no guaranteed salary or wage, and you get no fringe benefits such as health insurance. The time and expenses involved in moving product belongs to the IBO and the compensation plan doesn't pay very well unless you move a lot of volume.  There's no downside for Amway, but plenty of potential downside for IBOs who take on the risk and expenses to move Amway products.

The Amway corporation can sit back, and simply issue bonuses to downline IBOs. It is the IBOs themselves who recruit others, train others and move the products. Many IBOs are fiercely loyal to Amway products even when they could get the exact same product or a similar product, in many cases, at a fraction of the cost at a big box retailer, or even a local retailer. The IBO can also spend a significant amount of money learning to build an Amway business, as well as recruiting downline and trying to move some products.

Uplines get you to see the world differently. That you do not equate an hourly wage with your business. But if IBOs did think of their earnings that way, they would easily see that they are working to lose money or to make pennies an hour. For the larger majority of IBOs, working minimum wage would be far more lucrative than spending countless hours and money chasing an Amway dream that is very unlikely to materialize. Uplines also get you to think you are "investing" in your business by purchasing tools, but in reality, you are just a customer of your upline's tool business. They earn money by selling you training, even if you business is a failure despite your hard work and adherence to upline teaching.

You dedicate yourself to attending meetings, working the phones, meeting with uplines and downlines. You drive a lot of miles. But what many IBOs do not notice is that the priority in building a business should be a focus on getting more customers and expanding sales. But because Amway products can be hard to sell, most IBOs are focused on expanding their business by recruiting others. An endless chain of recruitment, which is why many people think of Amway as a pyramid scheme. Whether it's legal or not as is, is not my call. The continuous recruitment and attrition of downline make the Amway opportunity unsustainable in the long term. It is why the dreams of residual income is a myth. IBOs think they can earn lifelong residual income but how many IBOs can name even a single person who is doing this?

But the bottom line in my view, is that Amway is more like a job than an independent business. Call it what you will, but in either case, business or job, it doesn't pay well (or at all) for most. You can also have your income stopped by Amway and restrictions placed on your business. Does that sound like independence to you?

Friday, June 13, 2025

2-5 Years?

 One of the things I heard, and is still promoted is the concept of a 2-5 year plan to financial freedom. As a prospect, 2-5 years of hard work in your spare time sounds resaonable. Afterall, anyone can work an extra 12 hours a week for a couple of years with that kind of reward awaiting you at the end. The sad reality is that you are likely to suffer 2-5 years of financial losses without getting any closer to financial freedom

When Amway morphed into Quixtar, a very relevant question was how many diamonds were "quixtar only", meaning they signed up in 1999 when quixtar was implemented and then became diamonds in the advertised 2-5 years. As far as I know, there were very few (if any) new diamonds. The new diamonds that were named all seemingly came from other countries, not the US or Canada. Even now, my former LOS (WWDB) is touting "double eagle rubies" which is not a recognized achievement by Amway (as far as I know), and there is no assurance that achieving such a level makes an IBO profitable.

Even today, I do not see a stead stream of new diamonds emerging from Amway. If the 2-5 year plan actually worked, there would be new diamonds constantly emerging. Instead, my former LOS (WWDB), actually has fewer diamonds now than back in my IBO days. And of those diamonds who remain, some of them had home foreclosed and it also appears that at least a few of them ran into some financial difficulties. Make me wonder what a diamond's finances actually look like. I suspect many of them live in debt, especially if they flaunt the "diamond lifestyle", which is probably not sustainable on diamond income as reported by Amway.

So while it might be possible to achieve diamond in 2-5 years (some have done it), but tens of millions have tried. It is much more likely that you will win the lottery (provided you have a ticket) than it is likely that you will join Amway and go diamond. It is also unlikely that people in the US and Canada who join will go diamond in the advertised 2-5 years. The 2-5 year plan is not promoted by Amway, but by the LOS leaders. I believe it is a hoax and the numbers back up my claim. You are much more likely to be better off working part time for 2-5 years and saving and investing for your future. If not, you will end up with 2-5 years of losing money on functions and standing orders.

As many Amway leaders will state: Look at the fruit on the tree. In the US and Canada, the trees are bare.