tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.comments2024-03-18T16:48:06.734-07:00Amway - The Dream Or The Scheme?Joecoolhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09121920263105613498noreply@blogger.comBlogger15130125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-7402522432159310542024-03-16T10:31:48.572-07:002024-03-16T10:31:48.572-07:00Success in Amway is very rare (there is a 99% fail...Success in Amway is very rare (there is a 99% failure rate for IBOs). Amway freaks always argue that the same thing is true in professional sports, where only a tiny number of top-notch players ever make the big leagues. But the fact is that those who recruit you into the Amway racket are always telling about how simple and easy it is. If it were "simple and easy" there would be masses of people fighting to sign up, and no one would be dropping out.<br /><br />So which is it, Amway freaks? Is the system a simple and easy way for ordinary persons to get rich, or is it just as hard and laborious as making it in professional sports? You can't have it both ways!<br /><br />I think the best news we have about Amway is that it is becoming harder and harder for IBOs to recruit new members into their down-lines. The sheer desperation that drives those in Amway to sign up new people, and the outrageous lies that they tell potential recruits, aren't working anymore. People know that Amway is a FRAUD and a CHEAT. Once that idea begins to spread, a company is headed for extinction.<br /><br />Let's hope it happens to all MLMs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-79708181553432190572024-03-14T12:45:11.398-07:002024-03-14T12:45:11.398-07:00I was an Amway distributor from 2006-2007. Never m...I was an Amway distributor from 2006-2007. Never made any money and got bored with the constant drivel preaching and general bullshit. I'm not enough of a simp to fall for it. I wanted to believe, but just couldn't. I was glad when the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) went after Amway in the UK in 2007, with the tools scam I was a customer of (International Business Systems) caught up in everything.Former AmBothttps://www.smallbizgeek.co.uk/amway-uk-mlm-business-cult/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-29906036253268485042024-03-12T22:20:06.815-07:002024-03-12T22:20:06.815-07:00kwaaikat,
As usual, excellent and spot on comment...kwaaikat,<br /><br />As usual, excellent and spot on comments! <br /><br />What amazes me is how people get fooled by the none of your business blather by upline. Even for me as a slightly brainwashed IBO at the time, this sent up red flags all over the place. Joecoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09121920263105613498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-85638917945666478062024-03-12T15:01:13.843-07:002024-03-12T15:01:13.843-07:00Telling potential recruits that their chances in A...Telling potential recruits that their chances in Amway are very low, and that it might take years before they develop any down-line at all, and that they will be losing 500 to 700 dollars a month until they finally break even, would be insane. The recruits would run like sprinters away from the entire idea.<br /><br />So quite naturally Amway promoters will paint a rosy picture of mansions and jet planes and fancy cars and world travel to expensive resorts. All of it is bullshit, but Amway promoters know that it is the sort of thing that losers like to hear and believe.<br /><br />The great psychologist Sigmund Freud was once asked this question: "Why don't you analyze the dreams of your children?" Freud replied: "I can't. I have to earn money so that they can keep on dreaming."<br /><br />At least Freud was a realist. Unlike people in MLM rackets, he knew that dreaming by itself didn't bring in any money. Try telling that to the assholes who sign up for "Dream Night."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-62621604258091115752024-03-12T02:32:49.630-07:002024-03-12T02:32:49.630-07:00It is comical how MLM coach (whose materials are u...It is comical how MLM coach (whose materials are used by many in Amway) Matt Morris addresses the question.<br /><br />He suggests several "strategies" to answer this "objection", one of which is also Nunya. He suggests mocking the question with counter questions of asking the prospect how much he has in his savings account or retirement savings.<br /><br />It's not the same thing, for a business partner about to follow a recipe, and about to be coached, it is the least he could expect to have answered clearly. <br /><br />That is how it works in real business anyway. My accountant knows exactly what my small business turnover (and net profit) is. In the past, when we discussed partnerships, I had to disclose it to others as well. As was the case with the odd customer who wanted reassurance that we would have the stability to be able to service them. Similarly, a prospective franchise owner can expect from the franchise group, a pro forma income statement, based on real earnings of other outlets. Now back to the Amway case, if the upline is really paranoid that he cannot trust the prospect (which is a bit rich, seeing that trust the other way round must be implicit) he can have the prospect sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) before he discloses what he earns from the business.<br /><br />Not willing to answer this simple relevant question (which should be a selling point if things worked!) really should be a major red flag. <br /><br />Ironically, what is actually none of your business is what the upline does with his money. <br /><br />The pictures of mansions, cars, boats, cruises, trips, jewelry from the upline, or more typically someone a bit further up, are none of your business. Your business is knowing exactly how much the business or the mentor you are trying to emulate is earning, and that part is every bit your business to know. If he wants to show you fancy stuff, or rope in his upline to show you fancy stuff, and he feels comfortable boasting, and you want to listen, well that is between the two of you, but if you have any whiff of a business mentality, it should play absolutely not part in any decisions.<br /><br />Your business is knowing the what the "proven" business you are about to copy, the person who is going to mentor you, is earning.kwaaikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00062244111197155720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-77449543657894887412024-03-11T11:49:43.339-07:002024-03-11T11:49:43.339-07:00All this is true -- but remember that the up-line ...All this is true -- but remember that the up-line in many AMO subsystems (including WWDB) will refuse to help you if you do not purchase tools or go to functions. And Amway won't do shit about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-35277696681312539082024-03-11T00:55:35.525-07:002024-03-11T00:55:35.525-07:00My whole life of having been member of the Dutch R...My whole life of having been member of the Dutch Reformed Church, I don't remember being taught that "damned" corresponds to being financially broke, or that saved equated to being financially prosperous. And certainly not flashy displays of wealth, whether fake or authentic. John Calvin himself was not wealthy.<br /><br />Neither were my recent ancestors all of whom were Dutch Reformed and lived rather simple lives. Prosperity preaching in the reformed (or Calvinist) tradition as with most Christian denominations, is regarded as the hallmarks of a sect.<br /><br />Back to Amway. The problem with Amway is not any particular dogma of it's founders, but the same as with MLMs generally. The design of the system means majority failure, which creates a challenge to keep the business builders subscribed, in spite of the inevitable lack of success for most.<br /><br />The groups address this by creating a hype, which includes spreading the message that being in Amway is connected to virtues in the society where it operates, like saying being in Amway is the authentic expression of Christianity, or American free enterprise, or caring about loved ones, or assertiveness in taking control of one's own destiny. It is very possible, since Amway has a sizeable footprint in a country like India, that the groups there use the principles of say Hinduism to show that they are somehow close to that.<br /><br />However, the activities to recruit more members, to follow the plan and work out without results is definitely not the result of any of these world views, it uses world views and perceived virtues to say being in Amway is the personification of these.<br /><br />kwaaikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00062244111197155720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-47550630951713039052024-03-10T12:51:54.648-07:002024-03-10T12:51:54.648-07:00Amway is clearly exploitative. The typical defens...Amway is clearly exploitative. The typical defense of this, made over and over again by your up-line, is that EVERY business is exploitative, in that it is part and parcel of any enterprise that the employer makes us of his employees, and pays them a wage that is not equal to his own profits.<br /><br />This is a cute argument, but it is fallacious and deceptive. In a traditional business the employee freely contracts his services (for an agreed-upon salary) to the employer. As long as the employee remains a part of the business, he receives his agreed-upon salary. This arrangement is not exploitative at all. It is based on a voluntary agreement between parties. If the employee is not satisfied with his salary, he can quit, or go on strike.<br /><br />In an MLM racket like Amway, the IBO receives no fixed salary (or benefits) and can only earn money by making a sales commission on whatever products he can move, and by recruiting others to be "under" him in his down-line. Since achieving success in either of these two things is very difficult and chancy, the IBO is very likely to make no money at all.<br /><br />Where is the real money made? Simple -- in the endless selling of tools and training, and the collection of meeting fees. The IBO is told repeatedly that he will definitely make money himself if he stays in the system and contributes money on a regular basis to his up-line. This is PURELY exploitative, since the IBO never even receives the fixed reward of a salary. All he can hope for is to create a down-line of recruits underneath him, which he can exploit in the same way.<br /><br />Amway is pure exploitation of inexperienced or uneducated persons. The company can only succeed by endless lies and deceptions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-11572610139684615112024-03-08T20:59:46.219-08:002024-03-08T20:59:46.219-08:00kwaiaikat, as usual, great analysis!
Yes, the sun...kwaiaikat, as usual, great analysis!<br /><br />Yes, the sunken cost fallacy applies here. But a part of the whole picture is how people who quit are labeled as losers or quitters. That subtle peer pressure helps to keep people involved. That and the possibility that success might be right around the corner and you don't want to quit just before the business takes off like a rocket.<br /><br />The sad reality is that hanging in there longer just results in more losses for the IBO, and more profits for upline. That's why they can't have you quitting. Regular dedicated IBOs are their primary source of income. Joecoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09121920263105613498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-72669162658834110172024-03-08T03:20:10.496-08:002024-03-08T03:20:10.496-08:00What you are describing is known in studies of how...What you are describing is known in studies of how humans mistakenly rationalize poor decisions, as the "sunk cost fallacy". There are many sources on that for those who want to research it, basically it comes down people being unwilling to cut their losses, not because of the outlook which looks increasingly dire, but because they've put so much into it. It is easier to grasp onto a vanishing straw of hope, than to admit it was a poor decision, that the time and money should be seen as water under the bridge.<br /><br />It may be initially difficult making that adjustment, a bit like escaping an addiction, it means cutting your losses, admitting the hard truth, getting used to the idea that Amway is never going to make you rich. But it is the wise mature and yes, business thing to do. There is no shame in quitting a business venture or investment that didn't deliver, that turned out to be a poor decision. Even Warren Buffet once said "Should you find yourself in a chronically leaking boat, energy devoted to changing vessels is likely to be more productive than energy devoted to patching leaks". What is a shame is every additional day spending time, energy and money flogging a dead horse, one that is clearly dead. If that is the case, of course the best time to quit would have been right at the start. But the second best time to quit is now.<br /><br />Most of those facing this dilemma after months or years would already have seen, the low startup costs business opportunity never was that. After much investment in time and money, if participants are still talking about tax write offs (if a business is successful you pay MORE tax!!!) and "learning a lot", that should be the cue. MLMers love to point to Warren Buffet because he allegedly invested in MLM (as in the product supplying the companies, like the equivalent of having shares in the Amway corporation) as if it is an endorsement of being a distributor. They would do well to research in what his investments actually were, the supplier, or being an actual netework marketer (spoiler, it's the former). And to heed what he said about the virtues of cutting your losses and quitting and the foolishness of pinning hopes on what for the investor, has turned out to be a chronically sinking boat.kwaaikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00062244111197155720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-34647860923300341392024-03-07T21:48:41.508-08:002024-03-07T21:48:41.508-08:00The title of that Twilight Zone episode from 1960 ...The title of that Twilight Zone episode from 1960 is "A Nice Place to Visit." The dead criminal Rocky Valentine was played by Larry Blyden. The man in white ("Mr. Pip") was played by the English actor Sebastian Cabot. Mr. Pip was of course the Devil. It is one of the very best Twilight Zone episodes.<br /><br />Trying to pretend that everything in life must be thought of as "positive" is pure Amway bullshit. It's also a good way to drive yourself insane.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-46837368250261622892024-03-07T12:08:00.284-08:002024-03-07T12:08:00.284-08:00See my March 5 comment at Anna Banana's websit...See my March 5 comment at Anna Banana's website about the Dutch Calvinist basis of the entire Amway culture. It's under the thread titled "Amway Treats Its Employees Like Shit."<br /><br />The Dutch Calvinism of De Vos and Van Andel was deeply ingrained in their character and world-view. It makes a sundering separation of the "saved" from the "damned." And the saved are always successful and prosperous, while all the damned are always financially broke.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-40046661116196007782024-03-04T18:22:01.208-08:002024-03-04T18:22:01.208-08:00Stop saying they are superior. They are notStop saying they are superior. They are notAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-27294337114463680572024-03-03T10:05:07.384-08:002024-03-03T10:05:07.384-08:00In a real business, stability and profit are based...In a real business, stability and profit are based on steady retail sales to a customer base in the general population. People like your stuff, and they come back for more. It's as simple as that.<br /><br />Since Amway does not have this, it must maintain itself by means of constant recruitment of new members into the system, and by convincing these members (the IBOs) that if they learn "the secret" of Amway success they will become millionaires. Hence the need for "mentors" -- persons who will keep an IBO on the hook for months or even for years, dangling the prospect of "learning the Amway secret" by buying endless CDs and books and tapes and function tickets, and by attending weekly repetitive meetings about "the Plan."<br /><br />No one needs to spend years learning the ropes in a simple sales operation. But you do need to learn all sorts of tricks and deceptive practices to recruit new people into your down-line. And you also need to brainwash yourself into thinking that hope and hype and rah-rah screaming your head off at functions will eventually pay off, even though you are losing hundreds of dollars every month.<br /><br />So a successful "mentor" in Amway is one who recruits you, convinces you to recruit others by any means necessary, and persuades you that all you have to do it wait, buy the tools and tickets, and obey all his orders. Naturally this is a full-time operation, so you are told that the "secret" to Amway success is hidden in the tons and tons of propaganda that you must pay for and assimilate every month.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-4519684912121105242024-02-29T22:19:21.317-08:002024-02-29T22:19:21.317-08:00If you stood on a corner of a busy street every da...If you stood on a corner of a busy street every day for a month, begging passers-by for loose change, you would make a lot more money than $202.<br /><br />It's hard to believe that anybody goes in for this Amway crap.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-74196938562986595962024-02-28T08:40:54.194-08:002024-02-28T08:40:54.194-08:00Amway may be "legal" in the strict sense...Amway may be "legal" in the strict sense, but so are many of the upper-levels of organized crime. The Mafia has many layers of control that insulate the higher-ups from responsibility, and many of the leaders can pose as respectable businessmen. Al Capone was a major criminal gangster, and yet the law could not touch him until they managed to get him on the technicality of tax-evasion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-37118785588589208032024-02-26T09:39:19.914-08:002024-02-26T09:39:19.914-08:00Yes, Amway needs the subsystems to keep up recruit...Yes, Amway needs the subsystems to keep up recruitment, and to generate endless hype and enthusiasm. It's very much like the upper levels of organized crime need all the tough little street gangs that carry out the dirty work of murder and extortion, and the enforcement of obedience among the low-level racketeers.<br /><br />The heads of a huge Mexican drug cartel don't care what's happening in the streets of Los Angeles. They leave that up to their street-level associates. All the cartels care about is that they are getting their money. Amway is perfectly parallel in its operation with the AMO subsystems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-47881772165426138612024-02-25T11:12:55.274-08:002024-02-25T11:12:55.274-08:00Amway is culpable, as Joe has been saying as far a...Amway is culpable, as Joe has been saying as far as I always understood it. The commissions structure alone, and the very low starting commissions at point of sale, would of course immediately nudge every member to think that the easiest way to imagine success would be to sign up others, and even if others also sell little beyond what they themselves use. With or without subsystems.<br /><br /><br />What the subsystems do is keep the hype alive pass it's normal sell by date. The social pressure and hype they create help so that people keep working it even after it should be clear that it is going nowhere.<br /><br />And "mentors" in groups can say things that Amway cannot say, such as assuring prospects that one does not have to be a sales person, or that success is bound to come if you work hard, or that a plan of recruiting 5 or 6 members to buy their own stuff from Amway who will attempt to do the same is the key to success.<br /><br /> Occasionally someone would pitch who is still heavily sold on Amway, saying that the subsystems and "tools scam" is (the one thing) that gives Amway a bad name, if only a petition could be signed to get rid the ecosystem of these groups, then the Amway opportunity would deliver for most people. It won't, because the first thing that is wrong is still the recruitment heavy focus in they way members are incentivised. Amway without the subsystems would just recruit less, and people who loose (still the majority) would leave quicker, and Amway's sales would fall. That is if other structures with charismatic leaders don't rise to take their place.<br /><br />Another thing the subsystems do is they play down the Amway part in some cases. The last two people who tried to rope me in were involved in N21. They both presented themselves as serious professionals turned business people, in a network of business people, who partner with many companies, who by the way include Amway amongst others. When they started in our area, Network21 evoked no response as it was unknown, but many in the public had memories of relatives and friends getting hurt in Amway.<br /><br />So yes the presence of the subsystems is definitely a win-win. And cut from the same moral cloth.kwaaikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00062244111197155720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-49976784185775226402024-02-24T22:12:50.975-08:002024-02-24T22:12:50.975-08:00David, why don't you just tell us what the hel...David, why don't you just tell us what the hell you're trying to say? We're not mind readers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-90224592982463313292024-02-23T18:54:25.133-08:002024-02-23T18:54:25.133-08:00👀will this work for a eye rolling emoji? 🙂👀will this work for a eye rolling emoji? 🙂Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06834961114998347041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-65669499944586691502024-02-23T12:23:59.905-08:002024-02-23T12:23:59.905-08:00Anonymous,
I was in WWDB so my direct experience ...Anonymous,<br /><br />I was in WWDB so my direct experience is from that sub system. And Amway is culpable in my opinion. They know these abuses exist but look the other way to profit from it.<br /><br />It's a symbiotic relationship. WWDB and other systems teach product loyalty, 100 PV defacto quota per month and they do all the recruiting. On the other side, Amway pretends to frown on bad behavior but in the end, no substantial changes to curb bad behavior is implemented.Joecoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09121920263105613498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-19478222791206042562024-02-23T10:07:12.972-08:002024-02-23T10:07:12.972-08:00Joe, I don't know why you always have to give ...Joe, I don't know why you always have to give Amway an "out" when you talk about how bad things go. It's always about the WWDB subsystem -- and you always try to say that Amway is not to blame.<br /><br />The fact is that the Amway Corporation of Ada, Michigan is fully behind what happens in the AMO subsystems! They know EXACTLY what is going on, and they tolerate it. Amway is a vicious, thieving, MLM racket.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-49052691373641175452024-02-21T20:39:43.573-08:002024-02-21T20:39:43.573-08:00kwaaikat,
Spot on!
When I was a regular on Amway...kwaaikat,<br /><br />Spot on!<br /><br />When I was a regular on Amway blogs, fighting misinformation against IBOFB, I cam across some former pins. One of them was a former Emerald who actually did primarily retail and owned a small warehouse to move the volume. She said she sold the business, but it's extremely difficult and can be sabotaged by upline. <br /><br />You need to offer it all the way upline. But upline can simply decline and then you can go downline. But why would upline buy your business? They can decline and if you simply quit, they inherit all of your downline anyway. <br /><br />But since it was primarily retail, with some active "direct" legs, they still qualified for the emerald bonus. <br /><br />She said she (didn't disclose the exact amount) got about the equivalent of a full year's worth of income. Joecoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09121920263105613498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-26888051565915719712024-02-21T06:33:35.059-08:002024-02-21T06:33:35.059-08:00Amway is based on mythology -- that is, fictional ...Amway is based on mythology -- that is, fictional tales that make you feel good and fill you with false hopes. The biggest myth is the "walking the beaches of the world" after you "retire" from Amway. This is pure fantasy. Nobody retires from Amway if they want to keep on getting a bonus check.<br /><br />Even Amway refuses to use the phrase "residual income" in any of its publications. Why? Because THERE IS NO RESIDUAL INCOME IN THE AMWAY RACKET. Once you stop recruiting and buying products, your down-line goes right into the hands of your immediate up-line.<br /><br />Amway is a disgusting and unpleasant cult, based on total lies.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8494309285043063074.post-22877001856952478032024-02-21T02:07:38.262-08:002024-02-21T02:07:38.262-08:00Not being able to go inactive goes hand in hand wi...Not being able to go inactive goes hand in hand with not being able to sell the business. It means there is no separation between business and owner.<br /><br />In many businesses, when the owner wants out, the business can be sold. But not in Amway, because the "investments" are all in the owner's head, they seem to comprise a long period of acquired wisdom through meetings, coaching and events. Not things you can be sell in a business transaction.<br /><br />Quite ironic for a business opportunity advertised as easy to get into. For comparison, when a friend brought a car wash he spent a week shadowing the previous owner. He was quite life savvy, but he knew nothing at all about the car wash industry. All investments, the machines, the taps, the storage facilities for the soap and brushes, the vacuum cleaners, were assets worth something to whomever owned the business. That worth was paid for and transferred to the new owner. What is more, when the business was stable and he got a good manager, he could go away for a while and the business would run and generate income for him.<br /><br />The Amway opportunity is the polar opposite of that, it is the ultimate non-walk-away business. The walk away promise is build on theory. The theory that you'd sign up a few, you spur them on to do the same, and they do the same. All join hoping to recruit and do the same, but their "sales" are what they buy for themselves, and you'd skim a bit of all these purchases. The one problem is it's easier said than done, people know about Amway. You mentioned North America, but it is not really different in many other parts of the world, like Europe or Australia or South Africa. Just the mention of Amway is enough to make people run.<br /><br />This sets up every owner for a constant battle to address perceptions and get prospects to hear you out, and to keep downline to not quit trying. The business never gets a life of it's own, and there is no walking away, no real concept of liquidating for money, no selling it, no leaving it in the hands of a capable manager, no leaving it as a nest egg for retirement or to offspring. <br /><br />I'll tell the next eager prospector, that while I don't really have the time to build the business, if the books look good I'll hear him out of he wants to sell it. My accountant tells me there are guidelines for pricing a business without hard assets, for example annual net income after overhead expenses times 4. The problem in an Amway distributor business, is that the net income after overhead expenses is very seldom positive, so it will in most cases be impossible to prove the business is worth anything at all. Even if it was, why would I buy a business that requires a multi year journey with conferences and dream nights to learn the necessary secrets on how to run it? Isn't that ridiculous if my friend could learn the car wash business in a week?<br /><br />That is if you must buy a business. Because for many people with any semblance of a skill or talent in something, doing your job well yields better returns than an Amway "business". <br />kwaaikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00062244111197155720noreply@blogger.com