When I was a young IBO, I saw the 6-4-2 plan and thought it was realistic to go direct and to find six (6) downlines who could do the same thing. I didn't know the realistic chances of doing this, but the presentation made sense so I went with it. I basically built my group on excitement and it seemed like the system could work. Sadly, as I climbed the ranks, my bottom line did not change. I did not "net" $200 at the 1000 PV level, and I did not "net" $1000 a month at 4000 PV as my upline taught. I had the parameters they taught, but the reality was my leaders taught everyone to pump what little profits we earned into buying more tools.
My leaders also taught people to get out of debt, which was good advice on the surface, but at the same time, any disposable income left over was to be channeled into tools, and for those who did not escape debt, they were told it was okay to go deeper in debt, but only if it was to "invest" in their businesses by purchasing more tools. Thus it certainly appears that upline's advice was purely self serving and had nothing to do with an IBO's individual success.
I was in WWDB and they (upline) said that WWDB was breaking the most new diamonds and that WWDB diamonds were the most profitable (although the claims were never proven). So here it is many years later, where are all these new diamonds? Aside from from foreign diamonds, there are (I believe) less than a handful of new diamonds from WWDB in the US from the time I left the business. Now I may be wrong, but even if it was a few more than a handful of new diamonds, that is a miserable success rate given the tens or hundreds of thousands of IBOs churning thru the system and the of amount of cash spent by downline on tools and the claims made my upline about the tools.
We have also seen some WWDB diamonds end up in home foreclosures. Where is the integrity and financial acumen these leaders boasted about? Where is the success and long term financial security available to everyone that was touted? I believe more diamonds and emeralds fell out of qualification than new pins emerged. The business was promoted as one that would stand the test of time. Sadly, I believe WWDB and the Amway opportunity as promoted by WWDB has been a miserable failure. There is little success to speak of, just he same old tired diamonds showing off a lifestyle that some of them apparently can no longer afford. Where is the success?
It is many years later and we are still waiting.......
This Joecool, this right here. This was the “4,000” example that I had relayed on QBlog so long ago. Using what is preached on stage, at 4,000 pts with proper structure one should be making between $800 - $1,000 per month. Since an IBO should’ve been “breaking even” at 2,500 pts, where ALL system expenses plus their products are now being taken care of by the business that should actually mean a 4,000 pin should have between $1,600 - $1,800 per month. They don’t have to buy ‘negative’ products anymore so they pocket the money.
ReplyDeleteHere’s the deal; forget Diamond, forget Emerald, and forget Sapphire, Ruby, or even Platinum. All an IBO needs to ask themselves is this…just WHO would turn down a business where a properly structured 4000 pin can take home a mortgage payment? If this business worked like it said it did, then we would be running into these IBO’s fairly regularly at the very least. The money at the larger pins would simply be gravy at this point and you can bet your bottom dollar that people would eventually be breaking down doors to get signed up.
Think of it; just how “fired up” would an IBO be if this was the case in their own business? Even if they weren’t properly structured at the time, they would be able to associate with many who were and then fix their structure issues no? How receptive would people be if they regularly ran into IBO’s even at this “low level” who were legitimately taking home this kind of money? How hard would it be to build the business if people saw this sort of success?
That’s the point, we don’t and IBO’s refuse to recognize why.
Great comment. Truth be told, if I actually netted $500 a month I may have stayed in Amway. But at 4000 PV, (I had eagle parameters) I was earning about $1000 a month on Amway bonus. But with the standing orders, voicemail, books, local meetings and functions, and a quarterly major function that required air travel (I live in Hawaii and functions are on the mainland), any profit I would have made got spent on these business expenses leaving me at break even or losses when I had to travel.
ReplyDeleteSo you're saying that without the tools and the functions, Amway might be a viable business.
ReplyDeleteNo, the products are way overpriced. You are paying premium prices for generic quality products.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who was recruited about 4 weeks ago by WWDB I have attended 3 meetings and a regional event yesterday where Glen Baker and all his down line told their stories on stage. My interest has shifted if I thought the payout was decent Ibwouldnt mind just doing the Amway part to earn a payback by buying for myself, but I am completely turned off by the WWDB pushing CommuniKate, Tools and events to extract an extra $150 a month from each IBO. I can sell the method they teach, I've learned the whole sales pitch in truth is just having all these IBOS jeep WWDB in business, Diamonds get $5-10 per user who sign up for CommuniKate, what a rip for a VM app. Tools generate more money for them, there's no need for this once you learn the model. Go teach people to extreme budget to get out of debt and only buy their consumables through their website.
ReplyDeleteSo Joe, all that being said, you mentioned because of the prices AmWay charges it's still not worth it, even if you cut out WWDB and just go straight AmWay, so is there another MLM company that offers a better compensation structure? I gotta buy this stuff anyways, why not pay myself along the way even if I don't get rich off it. Is there some other company that is more generous with products pricing and bonus payouts or point values?
I'd also like to know your thoughts on WFG TransAmerica as I am looking into that as well. Appreciate all the info you share and post, I think I dodged a bullet with WWDB
Once you actually LEARN the system by going to a couple if not more of WWDB events/seminars/ Nuts & Bolts, you CAN make money from Amway. Those tools are just there to keep you motivated but like I said, once you learn the system, you can make money.
DeleteActually, stats from Amway and the DSA suggest the opposite of what you are claiming.
ReplyDeleteI have a significant other involved with World Wide Dream Builders, WWDB, and soon to be Amway. I am very worried about her and have done an ample amount of research and read a lot of scary stories about how Amway took over their lives and all Sorry for the length:
ReplyDeleteMy girlfriend of two and a half years got involved with WWDB a little over four months ago. She was approached at her place of work by a woman that showed much interest in her and wanted to meet up later that week at Starbucks to talk further. Well, the first couple times they met, they would meet for hours and my girlfriend would be so excited because this woman showed so much interest in her, gave her books to read and reflect on, and gave her hope. A little side note, my girlfriend is in her early twenties, has multiple sources of income, and lives paycheck to paycheck. I would not say she is a weak-minded, naïve, or vulnerable individual. I would say she is someone that jumped on an opportunity that sounded wonderful without doing her research.
Anyways, at the beginning, my gf would meet several times a week with at first called her “mentor” and they would talk about dreams, goal setting, and overall life. When I asked, she was very vague, like it was top secret, which made me wonder at first, but didn’t think anything of it because I was happy she was happy. Well, weeks passed and her mentor introduced her to the others in the group, about 20 or so, and they all met up at a local restaurant. All my gf could say was she has never been around such “fun, open-minded, humble” people all at once, where she felt like she could be herself. At this point, she was involved for about a month, we still had communication, but she would disappear for hours without telling me where she was at or who she was with, would never text me when around them, and would never allow me to go along with her to meet these “amazing people.” I couldn’t understand why I wasn’t able to be around them, she made it sound so positive and fun, who wouldn’t want to go?
Keep in mind, she got involved at the beginning of August this year. After the first month went by with so little information, September 1st hit, and that’s when everything hit the fan. All of a sudden, she was saying we need to take a two week break, with no communication, so she could grow and break the emotional attachment we had together. Upset and confused, I agreed. Prior to these two months, we were inseparable, happy, in love and looking forward to our future. To say she caught me off guard is an understatement. A two-week break turned into her saying we need a month a part with no communication or seeing each other. I agreed and respected her wishes and a month went by and she said she needs two-three months more months of space or until I finish college (which is in 8 Months-August 2017). After some more time passed and I demanded to meet for lunch and stop communicating through the phone, it was like talking to someone I didn’t know. She was laughing off everything I was saying, saying meeting with me was a waste of time, saying we are over and there is no us, saying I’m emotional and to not talk to her until my head is clear? UHM! I am emotional because the love of my life wants nothing to do with me for no apparent reason. The love of my life has no explanation for why she is treating me this way besides “I will do whatever my up lines and mentors tell me to do.”
Continued:
ReplyDeleteSome things she would say and actions she would do should help paint the picture: She has completely cut off all ties with family, friends, me, or anything that has a tie to her past, also known as “distractions that are hindering her from reaching her goals.” Everything she does and everyone she hangs out with is involved with Amway or WWDB because “she only keeps positive associations and takes advice from people that have made it and that the multimillionaires and her up lines believe in her.” She has blocked my phone number and several family members, making it near impossible to get a hold of her. She says her mentors will not let her “launch her business” until she is financially stable. Her mentors have helped her rearrange her resume and land a new job, which makes a steady amount of income. She says she will be “financially free” by the time she is 25. She is constantly listening to motivational videos and podcasts. She is always listening to people that “have made it” like Greg Duncan. She said she only associates herself with “winners and risk takers.” At one point, her up-line told her that if I was serious about being involved with WWDB, I would quit college, keep in mind I am a semester away from graduation. That is crazy! I told her absolutely not. She is very skeptical about who she spends her time with. She attended FED in Oregon this past October and multiple seminars locally. She goes out all hours of the night to places all around time. She spends a lot of time at bars and night clubs until 4 or 5 a.m., which is unusual. She is always looking up multimillion dollar homes and cars and putting them on her dream board. She skipped her brother’s wedding last month because it was too much of a distraction and she needed to stay in her town. I also heard that they do not support gay relationships, is this true? Considering we are two women in love? My mind is all over the place. There is much more to this, but this should be enough information to get some answers.
At first I did not believe it when people said pyramid scheme, cult, scam or any of those negative slurs because I wanted to believe in her and her success. I tried to support her. It wasn’t until recently I started doing my research and everything started to make sense and realized other people have similar if not the same story. I have read a short few success stories with Amway, but they definitely outweigh the sad stories I have come across. I love this girl with all of my heart, she is the love of my life, and I planned on spending the rest of my life with her. Although I realize there is no convincing her because she is so heavily influenced and involved, does anyone have any advice or anything to add? Is this normal behavior? How long does it usually take people to realize that nothing is worth choosing your family, friends or significant other over? I am a person who values relationships, so I absolutely can’t wrap my head around all this. This has been an emotional roller coaster for me the past couple of months. My heart is broken for her and it is all I can think about. It is near to my heart because I want to see the best in her and for her. I do not want to see her learn the hard way, lose money, or lose confidence or self-esteem. I know this is something she has to figure out on her own because she absolutely doesn’t listen to anyone that isn’t involved or “has made it.” I am close to letting go completely and walking away. But, after all this, if there is any hope that I can make things work with her, I will work it out. I hope whoever else that is going through what I am going through gets the answers they need.
Ok so in 2017 a “single mom” (she has a husband but he doesnt help her with amway due to his parents large construction company that he owns) went Diamond Mandy Yomamto and Terry and Jen Brown went Diamond too.
DeleteThis year 2 couples went diamond again a couple in their 50’s and a couple in their late 20’s.
All four of the above couples were once at 4000 pv BUT !!!! Unlike Joecool they continued on to Diamond earning 250k to 500k
Things have changed where all the tools are digital
It only costs me around 200 canadian for Kate, and my tools
15/ month for a meeting and 30 for a regional
And yes 4 times a year for major functions it costs me $3000
If a double eagle ruby 15000 points makes 120k per year WHO CARES ABOUT 5k in business expenses????
People who dont and have never owned business HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT what a traditional business costs to run!
I am a tradional business owner who laughs at the thought of ONLY 3-5k per year in bus expenses.
Thats a Joke!
Bottom line?
If joe cool was joe non-quitter he would be a double eagle ruby or diamond and would not give a rip about pennies of over head/expenses. That is the bottom line
Imagine an olympic athlete hanging only around people who are athletes... birds of a feather baby! She has chosen to do something awesome with her life and to hang around average people who are not going to donanything major with their lives other than work a 9-5 WOULD BE STUPID!!! grow a pair and go do something awesome with her dude!
DeleteThanks for sharing your story and I hope it will help others see thru the scam called WWDB.
ReplyDeletehey. I've been with amway, wwdb for a 4 months now and ive spent so much money on this, almost ruined family relationships. missed job opportunities due to boardplans etc. i feel like until you have a massive organization you gotta waste money on products, books etc. is that true? should i leave and do other things?
ReplyDeleteAre u dumb? Asking a quitter if you should quit????
DeleteWhy dont you go ask a double eagle ruby if u should quit???? They make 70k-150k
If you are operating at a net loss, a question you should consider is what will change that will make you profitable? And how long will it take?
ReplyDeleteAmway is supposed to be low risk and low overhead, but the LOS like WWDB are the reason why so many IBOs operate at a loss.
Get out of Amway AS FAST AS YOU CAN, pal.
ReplyDeleteYou will be drained of cash for years and years if you remain. Amway's own published literature says that 99% of those who become IBOs do not make any money.
Seriously, you would make more money standing on a corner begging for loose change than you will ever make in the Amway rip-off.
I made the mistake of attending three board plans and a few sessions with BWW IBOs. I remember asking very early on, what kind of monthly financial output would my husband and I have to make in order to maintain the 150-300 PV requirement the group suggested. The elder sponsor brushed over her response and kept focusing on the points, saying she doesn’t really look at pricing and the focus should be on points, and having customers would make it easy. Unfortunately I was maneuvered into signing up last Friday and I was finally able to see the IBO pricing and PV/BV per product. Needless to say I was shocked and disgusted to see high priced items and low PV, even worse we are outside the US and the exchange rate provided by the upline was to multiply the US price by 9! Our country’s exchange rate is not near that for US currency, even if there are additional components such as duties, transportation costs. In addition to this we are expected to spend 3-4 hours at nightly meetings on Friday, Sunday, and Monday nights. How do we prepare ourselves for work at the beginning of the week when you are already exhausted from information overload and severe repetition of content that has no real business value? One of the first things I did was set up a cash flow statement to track income and expenses and already I see a major problem if we continue in this business. I already contacted the sponsor and told her that we have changed our minds and do not wish to continue. I suppose she wants to call in her upline to “coach” us but we see that this is a business that drains you financially, mentally and emotionally. I have always considered myself to have strong individuality and hate the idea of being indoctrinated into a group, which I told the sponsor very early on. My husband and I even joked about the cult atmosphere but now we realize this really is a cult and a brainwashing organization who revere and idolize “Diamonds” where uplines hold god-like status, and people are told what to do in all aspects of life. We know we could never offer this to our friends and even worse we could never use the manipulation and maneuvering tactics to recruit strangers.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments. The Amway leaders are very insidious. They will give you self serving advice. You are right, 150 to 300 PV can be a major expense for a couple. It can cost about $450 to $1000 a month for Amway products and that doesn't include what they will charge you for voicemail, cds, books, meetings and seminars. You would easily be able to spend $1500 a month on Amway just to earn a $10 bonus.
ReplyDeleteThe only way to profit is to sponsor enough downline who will then absorb your losses until you can profit.
To update you further, as expected our sponsor wanted to meet and brought the uplines for support. It so happened we met with the upline first and made it clear that had we been told up front the actual cost of 150-300PV orders we would have said no to signing up. PV/BV mean nothing to someone from outside looking at the business, but of course we know that obfuscation is the name of their game. By then the sponsor arrived, and while I presented questions regarding the cost of products, value, availability etc, they could only counter with quality and high concentration which had not been proven ( I used the detergent according to instructions and had to rewash my towels because they weren’t clean). In good conscience how could I try to market something like that to informed consumers? Then I raised issues like operating costs for chasing after prospects, and said I opened a cash flow statement, there was a pause, no one could say when these would be recouped, when there would be a possible break-even. I actually started feeling bad for the sponsor when she couldn’t express a single independent thought, and began rehashing what she heard from DVDs. It occurred to me how desperate they sounded and clearly they could not be doing as well as they portray in meetings. They have probably spent so much money that they have no choice but to continue chasing the elusive diamond. The last thing I remembered hearing was that the toothpaste was a great way to introduce the product to customers. We couldn’t get out fast enough. For the first time in weeks my husband and I literally sighed when we realized what we escaped. We can’t even tell our friends that we even entertained the idea of being IBOs.
ReplyDeleteSorry it didn't for for you.
DeleteThanks for the update!
ReplyDeleteFunny how you show them numbers and a negative cash flow and their only and typical response is high quality and concentration. How important is high quality when it comes to household products? But while we're at it, Proctor and Gamble products as just as high (or higher) quality than Amway products to begin with.
You were righto ask when you could even begin to recoup some of your cash outlay. The fact that they could not give you a straight answer is reason enough to run the opposite way!
Amway is really 2 businesses. One is the Amway soap/household product business and the other is the training business. Many IBOs pay into bot but only get small rewards from the Amway side and nothing from the training business. Most people never see this/ I'm glad you did. Good luck in your future endeavors!
Best of luck to you as well and I hope your blog can reach many people before they fall prey to these people or before they become destitute.
ReplyDeleteWow trading a life of building a massive legacy for a 9-5 job while being a quitter who blogs
ReplyDeleteNice tomb stone
I had a chance to do something great but quit and wrote about it all the days of my life online.
RIP
So tell me what diamond has a "massive" legacy outside of the Amway world? LOL
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think being a diamond in Amway is some great achievement?
To "JoeNONquitter" --
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, you're an asshole. Let's clear that up right away.
Second, you haven't provided a shred of evidence that what you claim is true. You spend three to five thousand a year in your Amway overhead expenses? OK, fine. Now tell us how much actual profit you have made from your Amway business. Or are you afraid to tell us?
You talk about other people being Diamonds and Double Eage Rubies and whatever the hell else other "pin" you can name. But tell us: WHAT ARE YOU? Where the hell are YOU in the Amway hierarchy? What's your name, and what's your "pin"?
And by the way, asshole, tell us what this "major thing" is that you're planning to do with your life. Attend stupid functions and listen to rah-rah speeches? Buy crap you don't need to meet a monthly PV? Listen to the same mindless motivational tapes week after week? Use an obsolete communications system like Kate? Kiss your up-line's ass for the next fifteen years?
Is that going to be your "massive legacy"?
And by the way -- if you're doing so well in Amway, how come you're still a "traditional business owner"? If you're some big-shot Amway "pin," why do you need income from a traditional business? Or are you in need of some real money to offset you monthly losses from the Amway scam?
You're not just an asshole, pal. You're a moronic asshole.