I recently read an article on what constitutes wealth. Some say an annual income of $100,000 would make them wealthy, some say assets exceeding $4 million would do it, and some estimated that $2 million would make them "rich". Of course, everything is relative and someone earning $25,000 a year would think that $100,000 a year is wealth, etc. College students might think $40,000 a year is awesome because many have little money to begin with. I'm sure someone like Bill Gates would not consider $4 million to be astonishing. It's all relative. If you are content with what you have, you are likely relatively well off already.
But let's talk about Amway diamonds. I say diamond because it is basically the pinnacle of success. It is the crowning achievement of the 6-4-2 plan (or other variations) that many groups show. The average diamond earns about $150,000, according to Amway. Now $150,000 sounds like a lot of money to young people or to those with lower wage types of jobs, or those who are just starting out in their careers. But we also know that diamonds earn income from the sale of tools. Some groups advertise (verbally) that someone might earn $100,000 a year from the tools/speaking income.
Let's be generous and say the diamond earns $300,000 a year from Amway and tools income. Income tax and medical insurance for the family will eat up about 40% of that right off the top, leaving about $180,000. Fantastic you might say? Well, a diamond certainly would live in a million dollar mansion, which would give you about a $6000 a month mortgage or $72,000 a year, leaving $108,000. (Although many - a - diamond pays for their homes in cash) Fantastic right? Well, diamonds are constantly traveling to various functions, flying first class and staying only at 5 star hotels right? So an average of 1 trip per month with a family, first class and a 5 star hotel would probably cost about $5000 or more per trip, or about $60,000 a year, now leaving $68,000 for this diamond's yearly budget. A good diamond with a family surely consumes 300 PV per month for household goods, or about $900 a month or about $11,000 a year, leaving $57,000 for the rest of the year. A good diamond is often a Christian who would faithfully tithe 10% of his income, or about $30,000 a year, leaving the diamond with $27,000 a year, or about $2250 a month to pay for their monthly electric and utility bills, gas, car payments, meals and entertainment.
Yes, some expenses may be slightly higher or lower, but what I am trying to illustrate is that even an above average diamond with tools income is more likely to be broke than wealthy if they live the lifestyles porttrayed at functions such as dream night or other major functions. Do the math. It is unlikely that diamonds pay cash for everything and it is unlikely that fabulous lifestyles can be sustained on a diamond income. There is plenty of evidence out there. Diamond's homes foreclosed, diamonds behind on income taxes, a prominent triple diamond in bankruptcy proceeding, many diamonds selling off their homes in a bad real estate market.
I truly believe that it is quite possible for many diamonds to be broke or deeply in debt. My numbers certainly won't apply to all diamonds but it certainly paints a picture that diamonds don't want you to see.
The extravagant lifestyle of Diamonds (as shown to those who attend Amway functions) is nothing but glitz and hype. It's not real. It's mere showmanship and fake publicity. Those events are as choreographed and staged as a televised Oscars Night.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose is pure propaganda, to energize and "fire up" the troops. Amway IBOs often report that they are filled with enthusiasm for a month or so after each function. This is what the organizers want.
As for the actual reality of a Diamond's life and finances... it's probably just as ordinary as anybody else's. The telltale sign is that an Amway Diamond NEVER retires. He's always in there recruiting and preaching and drawing the little chalk circles.
If he really were a multimillionaire, he'd be "walking the beaches of the world," as the hackneyed Amway cliche puts it.
I hope one day they are in God's jail
DeleteGreat comments. Yes, would note that Amway diamonds never "walk away" from Amway to enjoy the beaches of the world. They wok perpetually because without constantly recruiting and selling the hype, their business and income would fall apart quickly.
ReplyDeleteI believe that most diamonds, aside from the hype of functions, live ordinary middle class lifestyles. You can argue that their "work" is better than a 9-5 job with a boss, but at the same time, a regular job provides some degree of security that the Amway business completely lacks.
If the downline could actually see a diamond's financials, I suspect they would be sorely disappointed at what they see.
Did you get fired from Amway? Lol so much hate SMH
ReplyDeleteIt wont matter what I say about this article/Blog because the negative mindsets will argue against with illogically bad theory.
ReplyDeleteHowever besides those people, anyone else who actually wants to know something objective please read on.
1. I am NOT an Amway Distributor. I am NOT a diamond, emerald or have any other vested interest with Amway.
2. I do my research based on an open mind. I listen to the successful, the not so successful and ask questions of both. In other words I look at it objectively, look at the facts, and I dont just look at a few examples.
3. Now the logic in the blog sounds all very logical and correct except for one floor in the thinking. You make assumptions at every step that compound on each other.
4. Your information is inaccurate to begin with then you add to the error with incorrect assumptions and bad thinking.
5. I am absolutely NOT defending Amway or their distributors, nor am I pro Amway or their distributors. I am purely using research and correct thinking.
6. And this is the most effective point of all. IF what you say is true. IF your entire argument is accurate and a diamond's lifestyle wasnt what they are claiming. Given the amazing business training and people skills they have gained along the way, why wouldnt they go and get a job or start a business earning much more money when many thousands of organisations would hire them in a flash with those attributes.
I know for a fact the figures you talk about are way off
You are clearly incorrect in your information.
You make way too many assumptions.
Your understanding of business is either minimal or you have not accounted for it in your summary
and
you need to be very careful about some of the statements you make and the way you make them as it travels very close to a law suit. Again dont argue the point, it is expected of you but dont bother as I am not interested in your opinion after what I have read. Any comment you do make with only confirm what I have said about your mindset already.
I am absolutely not paid by or associated with ANY Amway person or entity. I was not asked to do this by anyone associated with Amway or a distributor.
I just dont like it when you could take away an opportunity that someone may have had for themselves but because they read your inaccurate blog they never had that chance.
I am not saying the Amway Business model doesnt have its issues. It does, just not anything to do with the logic you have put forward.
For instance, this business model will absolutely NOT work when attempted by someone with such a negative mindset.
But then again I dont know of anything that would work with thinking like that.
Oh and just in case anyone reads this that is interested in the business.
Do your own research.
Look at it objectively from your point of view.
Ask yourself what choices do you have.
and it is absolutely NOT a pyramid scheme or a cult.
Buddy 99℅ of people in mlm make no $$$$$$$
DeleteYou have typed a lot of words without actually saying anything. What are the specific findings of your “research”? You only contest the article, but you don’t provide a counter claim at all.
DeleteI was very close with our Diamond upline when we were IBOs. They live a lifestyle that is similar to a $350k annual salary. I know that because my husband and I make $210k now and I can see very specific things about their life and compare to our now non-Amway lifestyle. Diamonds are not as luxurious as they claim. They are constantly working. They are like social media influencers of Amway. They have barely upper class lifestyles and spend in relation to their earnings in a way that doesn’t set them up for long-term success.
I comment as Anonymous purely because I will not waste my time arguing via email or any other means with fools that make comments like this.
ReplyDeleteJoecool
ok so you "believe that most diamonds, aside from the hype of functions, live ordinary middle class lifestyles" ?
and
"If the downline could actually see a diamond's financials, I suspect they would be sorely disappointed at what they see."
First you have NO idea what you are talking about.
I am not "in" Amway, associated with them or a distributor in anyway way not have I any vested interest in saying this other than as an entrepreneur who believes in opportunity. Your comments may take away someone's opportunity of having something for themselves.
Your information is inaccurate.
Your comments are unfounded (fact because you wouldnt make them if you knew the real facts)
Most diamonds and other levels of Amway Distributors dont "walk away" because they have built a business AND a lifestyle they enjoy so why would you walk away from it?
Not to mention the hundreds or thousands of friends you have a relationship with.
So Jo so called Cool
making up stories that arent true are hurtful and most likely will come back to bite you.
I actually feel like starting an Amway Distributorship just to prove you and Anonymous wrong. I would gladly come and show you my financials and even then you would have all sorts of lies and accusations of manipulated books, and ledgers and Im hiding the truth. So you see there is no point in trying.
The one good thing out of this is there is no way a negative sad sack like yourself will ever get involved in an Amway business so they are safe from that point of view and there is no way you will likey succeed in anything else anyway (with that mindset) so I dont have to worry about coming across you in any other capacity.
Any business or opportunity takes two things to succeed - commitment and enthusiasm
but in order to get started you have to also have belief.
I commented on here purely because you and your anonymous brother have tried to take opportunity away from those with both the success attributes.
I said something because I am objective (not involved with Amway) but still have a positive attitude.
Maybe my comments will balance yours so someone gets BOTH points of view and does their own research (like I have).
Please let us know how it goes.
DeleteMy husband and I were quite successful IBOs from 2016-2019 and it cost us over $75000 in products and services (none of which we needed or would otherwise have purchased), including the weekly paid meetings we had to attend, the quarterly higher priced ticketed events, and the bi-annual event we had to fly across the country for.
That doesn’t include losing all of our friends, delaying important financial decisions like moving somewhere cheaper, and endless tanks of gas driving to all these worthless meetings.
It’s a cult.
So, yes. Please join. Tell us specifically what in this article you don’t agree with.
You claim that my assessment of diamonds is false is interesting but let's look at the facts that I based that assessment on. Not too long ago, Amway said the average (non Q12) diamond made about $150,000 gross income, before taxes and business expenses. Most of a diamond's income is received in the form of an annual bonus, thus a diamond's income might be $5000 or $6000 a month. With a wife (who doesn't have a job and 1-2 kids, what kind of lifestyle you do think they live on $5K or $6K per month (not counting the annual bonus? Even if you double that income because of the tool scam income, a family where both parents don't work but have a business with expenses and travel costs, will not be living a jetset lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteThey aren't buying mansions and sports cars in cash, nor are they flying first class on fabulous vacations. And I repeat, these estimates with the income disclosed by Amway, do not support a "diamond" lifestyle. The only way a diamond lives a bit more comfortably is with the supplemental income they earn through the tool scam, although the amounts earned from this can vary depending on what system they belong to.
Your claim to not have any vested interest in Amway sounds like BS.
I fully agree with what you’ve written. My husband and I were IBOs from 2016 to 2019 and spent over $75000 (well over, in fact) to be involved. Amway is an expensive thing to be involved with already. He and I had been earning over $150k annually while involved and it felt like we were living paycheck to paycheck.
DeleteWe now make about $210k. We live in a beautiful 4500 square ft home. We travel internationally about twice a year. Our son goes to a prestigious school. We live a fabulous upper-middle class life.
Our upline Diamond was barely a step up from us in terms of lifestyle. His mortgage was no more than $1000 more per month than mine. He drove 1 nice car. Maybe he pays $800 more per month for it. He has three kids in public school. He appears to travel first class on their one trip to Hawaii every year, and maybe travels one additional time per year with family, which I’ll very generously estimate at $25k in added travel expense.
Nothing else about them appeared more expensive than upper middle class. They appear to make about $300k-350k, which is nowhere near enough for me to want to continuously work and try to fluff up my lifestyle until I die. We’re only 3 promotions each from $300k, and that’s historically been 1 per year. We were financially hindering ourselves significantly by participating in Amway.
Joe, you are right on target. This guy is a lying piece of shit.
ReplyDeleteIf he's "not in Amway," and "not associated in any way with Amway," and he is "not defending Amway," then why the hell is he coming to an anti-Amway blog to put up long, argumentative posts?
He accuses you of not knowing the facts, but he doesn't present a SINGLE FACT OR STATISTIC OR PIECE OF SOLID EVIDENCE to back up his claim. This is typical of the Amway freak -- never answer criticism directly and clearly, but just say that any critique of Amway is not true.
I'm certain that this idiot is in Amway -- otherwise why would he be so angry? Why would he come here and join the discussion? Who comes to a specifically anti-Amway website without having any connection or link to Amway?
The guy is just a bullshitting phony.
Just look at the patent absurdities of this Amway defender's postings.
ReplyDeleteHe screams (over and over again!) that he is not involved in Amway at all. But he then says that he hopes others will not be dissuaded from getting involved in the business. Why would he care one way or another?
Then he says that persons in Amway have gained "amazing business training and people skills." Huh? I thought he wasn't involved in Amway. How does he know that Amway people have been trained well?
He claims that what Joe Cool has said is "inaccurate" and "unfounded." But he won't explain why or how -- in fact, he says that he won't even try to answer anything that Joe Cool says. Wow, what a moron -- he thinks the best approach in an argument is to simply deny what the other guy says, without providing any reasons or counter-arguments.
The man is definitely an Amway member or paid operative, sent here to cause trouble. He's lying through his teeth about "not being involved" in the Amway pyramid racket. He's in it up to his eyeballs.
Congratulations, Joe Cool -- your blog is obviously still causing grief and chagrin to the Amway assholes. The tone of that guy's postings proves that he is outraged by what we say here, and is desperate to attack you. To bad he's intellectually incapable of doing so.
They are after there time, money.
ReplyDeleteHa! No vested interest but yet the brainwash is quite obvious. Round 1 goes to Joecool
ReplyDeleteIf someone tries to invite me to an amway reunion I say no way I am not falling for that lie ever again i spent so much time an money and my up line said to me lie if you have to just bring them to the meting and I said that is it I am out .
DeleteHey Annonymous - I am not the guy typing that I am not in Amway and defending it by attacking the blogger... (I am however Pro Amway) I just don't like how some of these IBO's address the Blogger or the visitors to the Blog. However I noticed that Joe's Arguments may not be 100% congruent, by that I mean it looks like someone is altering the argument.
ReplyDeleteI posted a response to Brandon (another IBO with amazing people skills "supposedly") on another BLOG Topic. In that I asked Brandon to stop acting like a jerk and I attached all the Amway Business expenses expected of the downlines in the Diamond Group. I also pointed out that Joe Cool would like to educate potential downlines of any Diamondship to know what he experienced (Remember stories are the best way to teach) to help fight what he believes is his new mission.
Yet in defense of Pro Amway IBO's who are busy scouting negative sites (me included) instead of getting out there and meeting new people, you will notice that the comment I am referring to (came in 2 parts) has been removed from this site.
Looks like all Pro Amway statements with facts will be removed, as they counter Joe's Mission (No Offense intended Joe). With that in mind, this Amway Asshole (aka Me) is going out to find new prospects and not continue a pointless argument.
Anonymous @ 5:11 PM is lying. I rarely ever remove any comments because I moderate them to begin with. And I will add that I publish all comments, even comments that are insulting to me, as long as there are no threats or racially offensive or completely inappropriate comments. Explain to me why there are comments on my blog personally attacking me while many pro Amway blogs don't accept any comments.
ReplyDeleteYou are lying and I doubt you wil be back to explain.
Joe Cool I am sorry that I came back, I guess although I don't like to argue... I also don't like my integrity challenged. So just click on this link to see that I am telling the Truth.
ReplyDelete-Robert Faulkner
https://amwayscheme.blogspot.com/search?q=Robert+Faulkner
My Posts in response to Brandon are no longer on your Blog.
This guy (Anonymous at 5:11 PM) is very strange. In the five or six years that I have been visiting this site, I have never found that Joe Cool has deleted comments by pro-Amway persons. It's much more effective for the anti-Amway cause to leave them up, in all their ungrammatical stupidity, and to shoot them down with solid counter-arguments.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the guy is completely foggy about why pro-Amway people are coming to this site. Amway up-line forbids visiting the internet, and specifically forbids IBOs from reading anti-Amway websites. So what the hell is going on? If he's "pro-Amway," as he says, why is he here commenting? If he thinks Brandon is such a great IBO, why is he attacking him? What kind of schizophrenia is he suffering from?
I notice that when pro-Amway persons come here to post, their comments fall into one of two categories. The first and bigger category is simple abuse and freaky outrage against Joe Cool and anyone else who questions the wisdom of Amway. The second and smaller category is composed of persons who are trying to pretend that they are "fair" and "open-minded" and "reasonable," and who use this disguise to soft-pedal and tone down any damaging critiques of Amway that appear at this site.
The problem with this second category is that the persons who try it are always forced into self-contradiction and absurdity. The evidence of the basic fraud and unfairness of Amway is just too massive and overwhelming to dismiss. The other thing that they do is pretend that they are "not involved personally in Amway" -- a really stupid lie, since why the bloody hell would they be here at this niche website, arguing for a company that they aren't part of?
Joe Cool, you are having a major effect. The downward spiral of Amway sales in North America is solid proof of that. Keep punching!
Robert Faulkner, I went back and looked at your link. No comments were deleted and I did not find it in my spam folder. If you feel inclined, you may leave your comments and they will be published. As I said, I don't censor and rarely delete any comments. I even published the ones where my life was threatened. It makes my case more than the pro Amway side to be honest.
ReplyDeleteRobert Faulkner in response to (Anonymous September 1, 2018 at 10:52 AM). I had posted all of my Amway Business Expenses and how much I made in comparison, as I too am a 4000 PV earner. I looked for the original post (It was so large I had to do it in 2 parts) and I was unable to find it… so I figured that the comments must have been removed or deleted. Perhaps they got buried beneath many more comments, who knows? Regardless of the fact, I can’t find those posts anymore.
ReplyDeleteI can understand your argument, yet it deals with “People”. The typical person doesn’t know how to keep quiet or stick a foot in their own mouth when they get upset about something (especially online because there is no fear of personal injury), then the emotional person (angry, upset, ect.) comments before letting go of those emotions. This is a weapon those people against Network Marketing, because the typical person is irrational and can be bated easily. (I am no exception) See: Joe Cool called me a liar and then said that I most likely wouldn’t be back. (It’s an example of the perfect bait – and I fell for it, obviously). You most likely will use this as a way to point out my stupidity, but I digress.
Not foggy on why People come here… they want to make sure they didn’t make a mistake, so when the business isn’t going the way they want it to they look online for a short cut or someone to relate to their story. Then they find this site and because they aren’t seeing any results they relate to Joe Cool or others online and they quit. (Yeah another Person saved, assuming Joe Cool is Right) Not suffering from schizophrenia – the only thing my upline forbids is crosslining and lying to people. Yes my upline AMO (not Amway the business) recommends that I don’t read anti-amway websites, or spend hours on Facebook because it depresses most people. When we are feeling negative all we want is everyone else to feel as miserable as we do. So instead of making a proper change and working harder we could join a family of people online who didn’t make the business work and can spend our valuable time convincing others that it won’t work either…
and you and Joe Cool could be right...
I don’t know for sure.
What I do know is that I earn money above and beyond my AMO Tool expenses and I have never helped anyone achieve the Fast Track Paycheck program. I respect Brandon because he chose to pursue his dream with a Network Marketing powered business, just as I respect Joe Cool because that person believes they are helping other people, but if you could still read that post you would see that I was calling Brandon out, he was lashing out (which if he was learning people skills from his team shouldn’t have happened). But he was most likely upset by Joe Cools personal experience.
TBH, I don't alway check my spam folder so it's possible a post went there but I checked for Robert Faulkner's post and it wasn't there.
ReplyDeleteIf you are one who earns more than your tool expenses, congratulations because you are in the top one half of one percent on Amway IBO.s. Amway's disclosures say that "active" Amway IBOs earn an average of about $200 a month. If you take the average of all Amway IBOs, the average income is less that $100 a month. That average includes the crown amasssadors and diamonds but does not count the diamond bonuses and such. Thus factoring in the average income, a diamond making 10k in a month would mean approximately 99 IBOs make nothing to in order to balance out the average.
And “active” IBOs spend about $1000 per month in overpriced crap they don’t need (I certainly did), so they’re $800 in the hole right there.
DeleteLying is an intrinsic part of the entire Amway operation. You lie to potential recruits. You lie to your IBOs. You lie to associates ("Fake it till you make it"). You lie to customers abut the "high quality" of your shitty Away products.
ReplyDeleteEverything that comes out of an Amway freak's mouth is a fucking LIE.
Interesting BLOG. I didn't do the math in calculating the expenses at the top of the post, but I think the taxes would probably be reduced by writing off the travel costs as business expenses. Other than that, it looks spot on. I put together a spreadsheet recently whereby I worked backward from one of their fabulous payouts, to see how many people and what volume of product sales it would take. I don't know how the bonuses work, but I read somewhere that you get paid 4% of what your down-line rolls up if they're direct, and 17% on product sales otherwise. If those figures are correct, and if "everybody makes money", the model quickly shows that for one distributor to make this fabulous money, their total down-line has to exceed Amway's annual gross revenue. I wouldn't bet my model is correct, I'm sure the math is wrong somewhere. But I can't model a scenario where 6-4-2 can makes you fabulously wealthy, it isn't mathematically possible. Math doesn't lie. Again, great BLOG.
ReplyDeleteThe Amway model "works" in the same way that betting on the Powerball lottery works. Your chances of hitting the right numbers in Powerball are infinitesimal, but the chance does exist, and a very small group of lucky persons will actually win.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Amway assholes will try to deny it, chance plays a VERY big role in becoming a Diamond. It depends on where you live, what kind of persons you manage to lure into your down-line, how much energy they have, the attitudes of your immediate up-line, and a dozen other factors which are not under your control.
In a real business, you can actually make a difference in your profits by your own efforts and ideas and decisions. But Amway is not a real business. That's why your up-line tells you not to think, but just follow orders and duplicate.
I would like to add my side to the Amway dream I spent more than 10 years of my life believing I could succeed at the Amway business I am now 58 years old and have developed a very successful business outside of Amway I have not seen one individual that brought me into that concept successful they all have jobs .
ReplyDeleteI have seen the homes they live in their very mediocre And the diamonds that would put on those seminars made so much money off of me buying tapes books in attending those functions I would like to say I gained some knowledge of how to run a business outside of Amway but as for Amway I feel sad for people who believe they can achieve their dreams in that model of business conventional business is a great way to succeed
Won't say who but some diamonds kept saying stuff that was true, I went t to many shows and I remember one diamond saying you want a million dollar business? Didn't say he made a million , Later I found out he only mad a quarter of that. I made 25% off my business I didn't have to sell motivation bullshit! Where some of there income came from! Liars cheating there wives and there so called goody two shoes bullshit
ReplyDeleteI tried to do Amway. I went to Springforward, Weir Conference, Summit. The feeling I got when I herd the Diamonds and Double Diamonds speak was “Jobs SUCK and I’m rich” I saw Doug Weirs Bentley and got to watch these videos of the life style that the diamonds had. I believed it at first. So I went out to prospect day in and day out. Ignoring my professional football career, not putting the time and energy into working out. I made fun of people with the saying “if you put the energy that you put in your job; you would of became successful in Amway.” The biggest and most used phrase I would use was “when I become a diamond.” But when I checked my bank statements every single month… It was just the same. Still on debt and told to remain positive while my Upline got the money I deserved. He barely did a thing. Amway isn’t a scam but it’s not a setup for success as they want you to think. I watch documentaries about MLM and the people they target most are extremely vulnerable people in debt. Hoping to find a way out of it like they did with me. If you are wanting to start an Amway business I suggest you do ALOT of research and think about it extremely hard. You may not know what you are getting into when you sign up.
ReplyDeleteThe phrase you mentioned “if you put as much energy in Amway as in your job”. Well, my husband and I did that and it kept either of us from being promoted. We left Amway in 2019 and focused on our jobs and getting rid of credit card debt. We now have zero debt and make a combined $210k annual. Our uplines wanted us to buy crap to make sure THEY made money and just hoped we’d strike gold trying to fool someone else to get involved.
DeleteWhen we left, our Diamond called us repeatedly, but then everyone stopped contacting us. I just wish they knew that Amway was the problem, not the solution; that without Amway we were able to start putting huge amounts in savings; without Amway we could afford to have a child (and spend time with him); without Amway I don’t have any debt; without Amway, I can afford to travel all over the world. Even a Diamond should be jealous of my lifestyle because I live just as attractively as they do, yet I can take weekends away from work.
Thank you for sharing your story. Hopefully it helps someone who is seeking information.
ReplyDelete