Success is subjective. Someone making ten dollars might be considered successful, for others, nothing less than a barrel of cash will suffice. One other important point is that there are undoubtably some very successful people in Amway. I am sure that some Amway diamonds are quite well off and enjoy some of the finer things in life. But the reality is that these successes are very very rare and many of these success apparently are not sustainable as many people are led to believe.
But the bigger issue in the Amway opportunity is where the success comes from. Sure, many people want to "go diamond" and live in luxury while barrels of cash roll in. But what is unknown to many, is that the few who enjoy the lifestyle and trappings do so at the expense of their downline. The downline move the volume and the downline purchases the system materials, both of which is profitable for the upline. Because Amway products, admittedly are not commonly sold to people who are not IBOs, then anyone can conclude that upline success comes from the pockets of the downline. Most downline would be better off writing a check for $100 each month to their upline and not participating in the business or buying products at all.
This in itself would not be such an issue if the system actually churned out new successes frequently AND if the downline were not led to believe that the system is the key to their success. But less than one half of one percent of IBOs ever reach platinum and out of those who do, only a tiny fraction of one percent ever attain the diamond level. But the business has tens of millions of people who tried and could never achieve what was promoted. Lack of effort may be a factor, but when that many people try and fail, it's evident that the system is flawed as well.
To summarize, it is possible for someone to achieve a level of success in Amway, but it is so difficult and so rare that IBOs probably have a better chance of winning the lottery or being struck by lightning than they do of achieving a significant level in the Amway business. Some people are successful, but it is usually at the expense of their downline. The catch is that uplines will teach their faithful downline IBOs that attending a function or buying a standing order is success, regardless of whether an IBO is earning a profit. So many IBOs think they're successful but they are simply fooling themselves with the help of their upline.
Success is undeniable, but sadly for the vast majority of IBOs, it is also unattainable, at least in the Amway opportunity.
It is undeniable that JoeCool is a blinking idiot. Why do you continue to bash on the best business opportunity around? Why do you need to put down IBO's and spread your negative crap all over the internet. It is because of people like YOU that my upline tells people to be careful of what they read on the internet. Anyone with an opinion can write anything they want, even if it's not true. You failed in Amway because you quit! Got that? You F-ing QUIT! See a theme there? If you spent as much time building a business instead of tearing it down, you could be a double diamond by now!
ReplyDeleteyikes...my evil twin has struck again!!!
ReplyDeleteWhat's undeniable is that Amquix is worthless. It's said time and again but Ambots won't understand. Sigh, there are other, larger and more established corporations out there which do not have people spouting the negatives about them which Amway does, why is that? Sure, Morgan Spurlock made a movie about the health issues regarding McDonalds food....wait minute, McDonalds never stated that it was healthy in the first place. Yet why did Morgan make the movie...because one can't escape the Golden Arches, no matter where they try to go and that their food can cause issues because of how widespread Mcdonalds influence is.
ReplyDeleteBluntly, if the business worked like it said it did...it would work like it said it did, period. Notice that your next door neighbour doesn't lie about the fact that he drives a car? Or lives in a house or apartment, depending on where you live. You can see it with your own eyes, why does he or she have to lie about something you can see for yourself? He has a 5.0 Mustang, he tells you about it, the benefits and the pitfalls. He owns a truck, the same thing,pros cna cons of ownership. If he owns a smart car, he can tell you about how it sips gas but is very small and can't fit much inside. The evidence is right there before your eyes, he doesn't have to lie about it or spin it as it's right in front of your face!! You think Usain Bolt spins his world record time?
If Amway worked,and I mean if it REALLY WORKED like it was suppsed to, like it was stated on stage, this blog, critics, and the vast majority of negative simply wouldn't exist. Do you think McDonalds tells their new franchisors to 'Watch out for negative people?" They don't have to, their system works. Question for you, why is it that when reading about the vast majority of negative stories, the 'quitters' had a sponsor who wasn't a Diamond or above? Why is it that only IBO's recognize these pillars of success?
In my own life I have indeed met people who make over $100,000, and in many different careers, yet in Amway, the vast majority of people I and others seem to meet are 'just getting started'. Why is that? IF this business worked like it was supposed to, we would see the evidence all around. Negative is only detrimental to the people or situations which have no positive to offset it. There woule be critics, sure, not as much. However, I can tell you this for sure, that there would be even smaller pins, 1,000's, 2,500's, even 4,000s living in anyone's area, who we would see day in and day out, with more money than we had and we all would wonder why. When we asked, they would say it was Amway and that it worked for them. Just like excercise, we wouldn't be able to mistake their apparent success. This is the point you fail to see, this isn't the case. 98% of IBO's fail and the truth is that we see this proven all over North America.
Your slagging of Joe only weakens your position and strenghten's his. Notice that McDonalds didn't make a movie slagging Morgan Spurlock? Notice that? The only way to shut up a critic is to succed, but when you have a business model which doesn't work, I guess your hands are tied.
Joecool, show me your diamond ring.
ReplyDeleteLuci (from Canada), what good would it do for me to show you my diamond ring? Why don't you show us that you actually made a profit from Amway?
ReplyDeleteAs Mr Maximum says, if Amway worked, people would be lining up to see the plan. Instead it takes lies and deceit to get people in front of a plan. Also, why are Amway's US sales going down? The answer is obvious but I thought I would ask anyway.
Really, show me a corporation that doesn't have people saying negative things about it...better yet, show me the corporation that is bigger then Amway Global, cash in hand, not on paper...
ReplyDeleteIgnorance is such a funny thing, and in any business, doubt and fear is what makes a man fail, don't blame the business, blame yourself.
This economy is a grand example of that. People want to blame whatever president for the shortcomings of the economy, but aren't we the ones that borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and finally when we could borrow no more said...sorry can't pay you. And we get made at the government for doing the exact same thing because they should have set a better example...
Go whine to mommy and daddy?
People our responsible for themselves, we fight for independence and then all we want we we have back ourselves into a corner is a bail out...
Wow...
Anonymous, there are criticisms of big corporations, yes. For example, WalMart puts mom and pop stores out of business. They may have customers slip on their floors at times. McDonald's has hot coffee and high calorie foods.
ReplyDeleteBut why is Amway's criticism about being a scam and having many upline liars? What about the exorbitantly high prices? You see, there's a difference in what is being critiqued. And why does Amway need rank and file IBOs who aren't even making money defending them? I have never seen a counter person at McDonald's debating the merits of healthy eating choices. I have never seen a WalMart clerk bemoaning the possibility of a mom and pop stores closing because of the retail giant.
Actually, let's do one better, sure we hear about people who bemoan Bill Gates and his 'evil windows' operating system, but try and find just how many computers DON'T run it. Quite a few do, this isn't something I even have to prove, common sense tells every one of us how true it is.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line anon is that your arguement would indeed have merit, if there was some benefit from the Amway Corporation offsetting some of the profound negative. Sure you can talk about which corporation has more money cash in hand (which I bet there are many more than you realize) but for every Mom and Pop store which closes, there are at least 50 -100 jobs created by that Walmart store.
For every unhealthy burger served in McDonalds, there are many, many familes, and people at the very least getting a quick snack since they haven't the time to cook dinner.
Now,for every IBO sponsored.....where's the benefit? Amway apologists love to talk about the intangibles (better attitude, increased efficiency) yet is this worth the money most IBO's bleed hand over fist in the business?
If you want to make Amway out to be like any other corporation out there, them you are unfortunately slitting your own throat, any other large company can stand on it's own too feet and argue with any critic of it's system the benefits they provide which may balance out the cost of their doing business. Where is that benefit with Amway? Well....where is it? Go ahead and tell me that I'm too stupid to see it like any other critic, yet us critics and even Amway apologists can see the benefits to McDonalds, Wal-mart, and even Microsoft. What makes Amway so special that their 'underground success' is still apparent even though everyone else's success couldn't be hidden in a black hole?
Facts can't be ignored, no matter how hard you want to try.
The sad thing is, the Amway business model could work, if you keep your goals relatively modest. It was originally conceived as a way to build a good second income or decent retirement income, for those who live within their means.
ReplyDeleteIt has gotten completely distorted into a "get rich" and "financial freedom" scheme by a small number of high-level distributors who realize gigantic profits from sales of motivational tools, not Amway products. And the company has tacitly gone along for the ride because it's a huge gravy train for Amway Corp.
If you retail about 150-200 PV worth of Amway core product per month, you can have a profitable business. Small but profitable. Then, and ONLY then, is where the "power of duplication" comes in. If your downline follow your example and "duplicate" your PROFITABLE business, your network over 2-5 years will indeed bring you a nice income far exceeding your tiny investment. It won't make you rich, but it wil be a nice second income.
That's the real model. And that's what's been lost. Nobody wants to retail, so their businesses lose money because of the cost of "tools." And downline duplicates a money-losing business. And people quit. And the system keeps churning out money-losing distributors, while the tool profits float to the top of the chain.
My years in the business taught me many valuable things, and I have no regrets. But it's really simple, folks. You don't retail products, you don't make money. That will never change, and it can't be covered up. Until you yourself are profitable, you have no credibility to "sell" this "dream" to anyone.
BTW, joecool, I enjoy your posts, but I must correct you: Wal-Mart never put anyone out of business.
Yes, if Scamway were such a great "biz plan" for those who are stupid enough not to see it, then why does IT not DARE to tell their prospects UPFRONT that they are "invited" to a Scamway business????????????? Instead, the prospects are shown a video clip that DOES NOT MENTION A SINGLE WORD of Scamway! After I was "invited" to such a meeting in a big hotel, I decided to visit the house of the IBO who tried to "sponsor" me. Well, I thought he had been a Scamway IBO for 7 years, and if he made any money, as the pimp at the hotel meeting claimed, he too would have obtained success and lived in a nice big house. Really? NO. He has a smaller and older house than mine, who had refused to be part of the Scamway in 1994 when first introduced to this scam. I really wonder aloud if the "sponsors" told their prospects upfront that they were going to a Scamway meeting, how many would go?
ReplyDeleteIf somebody shows a plan saying that it is Amway, 99% of the prospects will not turn up at the meetings. Now the training systems have plan dvds and all the diamonds claimed that all you have to was show the dvd in a laptop or show the plan through the Ibo’s business website through the training system, instead of showing the plan in a “yellow pad and red pen”. All the years prior to that they kept claiming showing the plan in yellow pads and red pen will only bring somebody to a meeting. Like all the claims with the system neither of the above works . Once people know it is Amway, they go online and search for it or talk to their friends about it. Negative about the business is more prevalent than websites like that of IBOFB.
ReplyDeleteWhenever a prospect asks an IBO or the person who showed the plan at the meeting, “how many years have you been in the business?”. It is a very logical question from the point of view of th e prospect- if you want him/her to join your supposedly successful business, they want to know how sucessful you really are and what their odds of success are. But IBOs are taught to dodge these questions with the answers like, we have been in the business for a couple of years and it is going great for us, or we are just getting started. Of course couple of years could be multiples of couples of years and just getting started could be an IBO with the renewed commitment and excitement of a new IBO every 90 days, after attending a fired up function. My upline would always say I am stating 2 indepent facts and it is not really lying. Or they would justify their “couple of years” statements with profound things like, “ we should always look at where we are going, not where we are right now”.
As far as lifestyle through the business, there are people who do enjoy the lifestyle shown in the profile videos. What they don’t show is the number of hours they have to put in to maintain the business and the business is definitely not residual. If a emerald/diamond decides to take a break for even 6 months, half of their business will vanish. What is worse is if there is a rift with the upline, the system income is gone and also, the uplines can let Amway know that a platinum IBO is not servicing their downlines and so should not get their 4% and the upline will get the money instead. All satge talk abt being friends with upline is great, but the fact if you are making some money through the business you have no choice but to be friends with your upline or somebody in your line of sponsorship whether you like them or not, for that income to keep coming.
Why is virtually everyone here so analytical and narrow minded? I feel poisoned by people like you, you're a detriment to my success. I better not associate with people like you if I want to be successful.
ReplyDeleteWell, nobody forced you to come hete and read this blog right? Associating with Amway people won't make you successful either though.
ReplyDeleteAla The Matrix.....
ReplyDeleteThey don't tell you up front about Amway because the teams (good teams) are looking for the Neo's of the world (ala The Matrix).
If your a trustworthy person and ask someone to follow a white rabbit will they follow, or get insecure and raise objections as to why they should just stay put.
Sure you have seen the movie.
the conclusion is, if someone is not game enough to improve their own and other peoples lives they will not react positively to such an invitation, and hence be useless to the project.
It takes fortitude and mental strength. If you've been forged by propaganda then you will protect the status quo regardless,....Sheep that no longer require a sheep dog to maintain status quo.
so?
ReplyDeleteIt takes 83 accounts at 300.00 a piece. Buying everyday goods to get 7500 PV.
ReplyDeleteA church with 83 people would not get noticed by the community either. How much do you spend on everyday goods. Do you get a 25% rebate on everything you purchase? Can you get a rebate on other people's purchases? How much does your credit card rewards cost you? If you had six little churches with 83 people (a month) would people say your weird? Amway says your Diamond. No body has much to say about the small church that gives personal attention to it's members and teaches one another how to be cheerful.
Kudos to all of you. You all have very good arguements on both sides of the field, although I do feel as though the Amway IBOs do have a better arguement - and that said impatially. Good representation!
ReplyDeleteI don't wish to make any further comments on the matter of whether or not Amway is a scheme (I'm not insecure or doubtful about Amway being an honesty business), other than this final staement: ...When you see me, IBO, Ian Santos, with an authentic Amway/LTD Diamond Ring in 5 - 10 years, just know one thing: IT'S REAL!!! = )
real, but gotten through dishonest means. oops, did i just wain on your wittle pawade, ian?
ReplyDeletedouchebag.
**proud Amway hater**
I'd like to throw my 2 cents in. I have been an Amway IBO for about 9 months and I can see both sides of the argument. It ultimately comes down to the IBO themselves. Sure Amway could do something about the bad ones but if they do that would not be a smart decision. I can't really fault Amway for that.
ReplyDeleteAs far as my business goes, I for one was one of those people who didn't buy products I didn't want simply to make PV. My upline Emerald, who has been teaching me and helping my team personally, has specifically said selling products is a must. He gives us CD's to borrow for free. He does say we should eventually tap into the training materials, but only after we start turning a retail profit, and only so we can then lend them to our downline free of charge.
I don't know what association causes these negative reviews, but my organization, BWW, and specifically my upline mentor, has taught me to not spend money on things just for the sake of making a PV b/c the whole point of Amway is to make money and not lose it. He does recommend the conventions, meetings, and seminars, but should I decide to not go to every meeting he doesn't bother me. In the few months I have made a profit about $1,300 and now I have a customer base to the point I'm making 150 PV just from customer orders, which is full retail profit. Now I'm teaching my downline how to grow a customer base so they can do what I'm doing. I hope this helps clear up the vast misconceptions of Amway.
For the record I do mention Amway during my business plans and I have the brochures that have the Amway name printed on it. I explain who they are, who I am, I have them meet my fiance, who always comes with me, and tell them the reasons I am doing this (it's about having a financial security for my future wife, and hoping I can help others do the same). Anyone in BWW, when they come to the big conventions, would see that. I was skeptical with the misses at first but now it's a different story. I'm all about morals and integrity so I can be considered one of the good guys. Parents didnt raise me to hurt people.
For the record my name is Jose and I live in NY.
This is a realistic view.
DeleteU know I read all these things about Amway and dishonesty and I was scared at first. Now that I'm in it and I see the way my upline has treated me personally, I don't understand where this hate is coming from. Is there that many bad reps out there causing all the hatred? I don't understand why people would do things to hurt others. And since I wasnt raised that way it fustrates me b/c all I'm trying to do is help people but b/c of people I know nothing about it makes my job of just having people give me an hour with an open mind that much more difficult. It's Jose from NY again :)
ReplyDeleteIt is because of the deceitful ones or ones that quit. Go with your upline and stick at it.
DeleteHi Joes, and thanks for commenting. Your story does not add up and I do not believe you for a minute.
ReplyDeleteJose, it's good that you want to help people, but your stiry odesn't add up and if you simply do the math, you can see that Amway cannot work except for a few people, and those people are usually the ones speaking at functions. The rest are cannon fodder losing money to keep the diamonds in the money.
ReplyDeleteI am a marketing person. don't fall for this mlm stuff. by design, mlm's are set up for failure before they begin. please educate yourselves before you go out and con your family and friends. 15,000 since the 1950's. 15 lasted over 10 years. do the math.
ReplyDeletewow that's sad...
DeleteI'd just like to point out. How many thousands upon thousands of people, millions even, have gone to college and either failed, quit, or dropped out? I suppose that perhaps college is a flawed system as well to steal your money? You're taught your entire life to go to college, to get an education for what, $70,000+ of debt at the low end? I guess that's the biggest scheme that life has to offer then. Man has everyone been fooled so far. How about this, you talk about your uplines scamming you, how about your boss? You know the manager that runs wherever you work? They get paid for your work and they get paid for more than you do just on each person. Yet I don't see them trying to teach you to become financially free or giving you all expenses paid incentive trips.
ReplyDeleteSuccess is also what you make it. It's a lifestyle, a mindset. You don't have to be an IBO to know that. Let any successful person, rich person tell you about it. Success is undeniable if you have a big enough dream and are willing to make it work. Let's just educate you about a couple things:
- Albert Einstein was unable to speak until he was four years old and didn't read until he was seven. His teacher described him as "mentally slow, unsociable and adrift forever in his foolish dreams."
- A sports expert once said of Vince Lombardi: "He possesses minimal football knowledge. Lacks motivation."
- Beethoven preferred playing his own compositions instead of improving his violin technique. his teacher called him hopeless as a composer.
- R. H. Macy failed seven times before his department store in New York caught on with the public.
- The great baseball player Babe Ruth hit 714 home runs--but he also struck out 1,330 times.
- Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace, flunked out of college. He was once described as "both unable and unwilling to learn."
- Fred Astaire took his first Hollywood screen test. The memo from MGM's casting director read, "Can't act. Slightly Bald. Can dance a little."
- WInston Chruchill was a poor student. But after a lifetime of defeats and setbacks he rose to become prime minister of England at the age of sixty-six.
- John Grisham's first novel was rejected by sixteen agents and twelve publishing houses. Today he is lauded as one of the best fiction writers of the twenty-first century. Over 250 million copies of his book have been sold worldwide.
Where would our world be if the critics had been right about those men? What if those men hadn't had a dream and followed it no matter what anyone else said? What if they listened to the critiques and didn't take advantage of opportunities? What if those men were you? It'd be a sad and different world. You are entitled to your own opinion but you need to check your facts and beliefs before ranting about a 10.9 billion dollar company who has given out billions of bonuses and incentives to people across the world. Or maybe the fact that we are the most recommended and most lauded MLM business in the world? I'm sorry you don't have a dream and that you're to weak minded to take advantage of an opportunity and I hope you can give me your email or something cause I'd love to send you a picture of my progress in checks as I go along in the business.
I'd just like to point out. How many thousands upon thousands of people, millions even, have gone to college and either failed, quit, or dropped out? I suppose that perhaps college is a flawed system as well to steal your money? You're taught your entire life to go to college, to get an education for what, $70,000+ of debt at the low end? I guess that's the biggest scheme that life has to offer then. Man has everyone been fooled so far. How about this, you talk about your uplines scamming you, how about your boss? You know the manager that runs wherever you work? They get paid for your work and they get paid for more than you do just on each person. Yet I don't see them trying to teach you to become financially free or giving you all expenses paid incentive trips.
ReplyDeleteSuccess is also what you make it. It's a lifestyle, a mindset. You don't have to be an IBO to know that. Let any successful person, rich person tell you about it. Success is undeniable if you have a big enough dream and are willing to make it work. Let's just educate you about a couple things:
- Albert Einstein was unable to speak until he was four years old and didn't read until he was seven. His teacher described him as "mentally slow, unsociable and adrift forever in his foolish dreams."
- A sports expert once said of Vince Lombardi: "He possesses minimal football knowledge. Lacks motivation."
- Beethoven preferred playing his own compositions instead of improving his violin technique. his teacher called him hopeless as a composer.
- R. H. Macy failed seven times before his department store in New York caught on with the public.
- The great baseball player Babe Ruth hit 714 home runs--but he also struck out 1,330 times.
- Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace, flunked out of college. He was once described as "both unable and unwilling to learn."
- Fred Astaire took his first Hollywood screen test. The memo from MGM's casting director read, "Can't act. Slightly Bald. Can dance a little."
- WInston Chruchill was a poor student. But after a lifetime of defeats and setbacks he rose to become prime minister of England at the age of sixty-six.
- John Grisham's first novel was rejected by sixteen agents and twelve publishing houses. Today he is lauded as one of the best fiction writers of the twenty-first century. Over 250 million copies of his book have been sold worldwide.
Where would our world be if the critics had been right about those men? What if those men hadn't had a dream and followed it no matter what anyone else said? What if they listened to the critiques and didn't take advantage of opportunities? What if those men were you? It'd be a sad and different world. You are entitled to your own opinion but you need to check your facts and beliefs before ranting about a 10.9 billion dollar company who has given out billions of bonuses and incentives to people across the world. Or maybe the fact that we are the most recommended and most lauded MLM business in the world? I'm sorry you don't have a dream and that you're to weak minded to take advantage of an opportunity and I hope you can give me your email or something cause I'd love to send you a picture of my progress in checks as I go along in the business.
Comparing college to Amway is a joke. While some people fail college, at least about half of the students graduate. How many IBOs make a cent? Less than a fraction of 1%? Oh, and college students later become doctors, lawyers, and fill other roles in society. What do Amway folks do?
ReplyDeleteIBO's help others to be successful. Not everyone can be doctors and lawyers etc. What other opportunity is there? Sure McDonalds doesn't have the rap that Amway does but how many can franchise them? At least as an IBO you can start-up for a lower cost. Like any business not everyone succeeds. Jose's article is pretty accurate.Those that waste money on 'tools' have to re-think.
DeleteThe problem with the pro Amway argument that admits that lower level IBOs lose money but it's ultimately their choice whether or not they make money forgets one thing. That thing is that the only way for the IBO to become a high level IBO who makes money is to bring on lower level IBOs who by the pro Amway arguers own admission will lose money.
ReplyDeleteHow do those IBOs choose to make money? Exactly, being on even more people who lost money. That's why as a profitable Platinum I could no longer justify building this business.