This was posted by a former IBO in Hawaii:
"I personally had experience with Quixtar. It is a "tool based business'. Did I buy their books and tapes (yes...back then it was cassette tapes)? Yeah, i did.
I realized there was a problem when things started getting "shady". My gf was a downline of mine. My upline said that buying tools will help build my business. I agree that some of the information they provided could be legit and work for some people. The problem was that I was purchasing tools on a weekly basis, but my gf was not. My upline refused to "teach" me and give me any support unless my gf was buying the tools too!
Are you serious? My gf, who lived in the same house as me, had to buy tapes and books when I was already buying tapes and books?
I got out and soon afterwards, never really heard much about Quixtar or Amway again."
Joecool asked who the upline diamond was and the response:
I believe Matt was the Upline Diamond. The name sounds familiar. He's short? I think he used to be the GM of T&C or something like that.
Are you considering the business?
I wont deny that some people can make money....its just the lies I was told before and while I was in it that made me quit. I hardly even hear about them anymore....or any other MLM for that matter.
Friday, September 30, 2011
Thursday, September 29, 2011
WalMart Beats Amway?
I recently saw an Amway supporter talk about how Walmart is so bad and Amway is good. But let's just look at the details. Walmart and Amway are both billion dollar companies, although Walmart makes Amway look like a midget. Walmart has over 400 billion in sales while Amway last reported about 10 billion.
Walmart eliminates the middleman and sells all kinds of products to consumers at rock bottom prices. Amway adds middlemen to the process, thus making distribution inefficient and the result is $50 cases of water or $80 for a month's supply of double x vitamins. While Amway apologists will make quality and concentration claims, there's no unbiased evidence that organic vitamins have any special advantage over the much cheaper vitamins you can get at Walmart. Even if products may be concentrated, it doesn't necessarily mean they are better or cheaper than Walmart. Walmart will match any advertised price for an exact same product. Thus if Walgreen's has an ad for something cheaper than Walmart, take the ad to Walmart and you get that price. Walmart's slogan is live better, save money. Amway's slogan is "now you know". LOL
Walmart's employees all get paid and have a net paycheck at the end of the month. Amway salesforce of comissioned sales people often make nothing or lose money if the IBO is caught up in the training program (cds and functions) Walmart adds to the local economy by providing jobs and good prices whereas Amway might be a drain on local economies as the profits go to Michigan and/or the tools companies.
Yes, you can google and find all kinds of negatives about Walmart. Walmart sometimes ends up shutting down mom and pop stores, they may have customers slip on their floors. But unlike Amway, Walmart doesn't have the terms "scam" or "pyramid" attached to them when you google their names. Amway does and because of unethical IBOs and tool companies, it would seem that the reputation is well earned over the years.
In the end, Amway is no competition to Walmart, where you live better and save money.
Walmart eliminates the middleman and sells all kinds of products to consumers at rock bottom prices. Amway adds middlemen to the process, thus making distribution inefficient and the result is $50 cases of water or $80 for a month's supply of double x vitamins. While Amway apologists will make quality and concentration claims, there's no unbiased evidence that organic vitamins have any special advantage over the much cheaper vitamins you can get at Walmart. Even if products may be concentrated, it doesn't necessarily mean they are better or cheaper than Walmart. Walmart will match any advertised price for an exact same product. Thus if Walgreen's has an ad for something cheaper than Walmart, take the ad to Walmart and you get that price. Walmart's slogan is live better, save money. Amway's slogan is "now you know". LOL
Walmart's employees all get paid and have a net paycheck at the end of the month. Amway salesforce of comissioned sales people often make nothing or lose money if the IBO is caught up in the training program (cds and functions) Walmart adds to the local economy by providing jobs and good prices whereas Amway might be a drain on local economies as the profits go to Michigan and/or the tools companies.
Yes, you can google and find all kinds of negatives about Walmart. Walmart sometimes ends up shutting down mom and pop stores, they may have customers slip on their floors. But unlike Amway, Walmart doesn't have the terms "scam" or "pyramid" attached to them when you google their names. Amway does and because of unethical IBOs and tool companies, it would seem that the reputation is well earned over the years.
In the end, Amway is no competition to Walmart, where you live better and save money.
Tuesday, September 27, 2011
Amway Uplines - The Root Of Many Evils?
Over the many years of Amway's existence, their reputation in the US and Canada has tanked. And it's not due to Amway the corporation, but rather Amway IBO leaders who teach and condone unethical behavior. Of course, I don't know of any significant measures that Amway has taken to discipline some of their wayward IBOs, but that's another story.
During my blogging career, I've seen young people who were discouraged from attending college so they could build an Amway business. I've personally seen people go bankrupt and lose their homes because they followed the advice of their all knowing uplines. Sure, people have some responsibility for their actions but I feel as if some of these kinds of actions by some IBOs and IBO leaders is predatory, and focuses on people who can least afford to funnel money into the business and the leech teaching systems such as WWDB or Network 21.
I've seen ridiculous product claims such as people claiming that bottled water could cure ills and make you athletically superior. Of course this water costs about $50 a case when you could buy 10 cases of water at WalMart for the same price. They claim superiority in their vitamins without unbiased scientific evidence to support their claims. Perhaps that is why the Amway vitamins seemingly are consumed nearly exclusively by IBOs themselves.
Despite claims by Amway supporters and IBOs that things are changing in Amway for the better, there is plenty of evidence that nothing has changed. Outrageous income claims. I thought the Dateline show exposed some crazy stuff with an IBO leader claiming that people could eanr $250K per year with a part time effort, but then my friend Rocket finds this gem with an IBOAI member and crown ambassador in WWDB/Amway claiming you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month: http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2011/09/amway-guys-they-sure-say-stuff.html
I wonder if Brad Duncan himself even makes that kind of money. Ironically, his triple diamond brother wasn't even close to that when his bankruptcy papers were exposed a few years ago.
So to Amway prospects and apologists, the Amway corporation itself may be perfectly legal and clean, but the root of many evils comes from Amway uplines and AMO leaders. It is for this very reason that many get turned off just at the mention of the Amway name. Amway can stop them, but will they?
During my blogging career, I've seen young people who were discouraged from attending college so they could build an Amway business. I've personally seen people go bankrupt and lose their homes because they followed the advice of their all knowing uplines. Sure, people have some responsibility for their actions but I feel as if some of these kinds of actions by some IBOs and IBO leaders is predatory, and focuses on people who can least afford to funnel money into the business and the leech teaching systems such as WWDB or Network 21.
I've seen ridiculous product claims such as people claiming that bottled water could cure ills and make you athletically superior. Of course this water costs about $50 a case when you could buy 10 cases of water at WalMart for the same price. They claim superiority in their vitamins without unbiased scientific evidence to support their claims. Perhaps that is why the Amway vitamins seemingly are consumed nearly exclusively by IBOs themselves.
Despite claims by Amway supporters and IBOs that things are changing in Amway for the better, there is plenty of evidence that nothing has changed. Outrageous income claims. I thought the Dateline show exposed some crazy stuff with an IBO leader claiming that people could eanr $250K per year with a part time effort, but then my friend Rocket finds this gem with an IBOAI member and crown ambassador in WWDB/Amway claiming you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month: http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2011/09/amway-guys-they-sure-say-stuff.html
I wonder if Brad Duncan himself even makes that kind of money. Ironically, his triple diamond brother wasn't even close to that when his bankruptcy papers were exposed a few years ago.
So to Amway prospects and apologists, the Amway corporation itself may be perfectly legal and clean, but the root of many evils comes from Amway uplines and AMO leaders. It is for this very reason that many get turned off just at the mention of the Amway name. Amway can stop them, but will they?
Monday, September 26, 2011
Amway And MLMs A Con Game?
Great Thread posted at scam.com:
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=142975
It is stunning to realize the enormity of this con. Multi-million and billion dollar companies, stock exchange listed companies, companies that put on the facade of being a good corporate neighbor and innocent "business" (cough) next door.
Nework marketing is a flawed and unsustainable business model that effectively is fed and supported by those on the bottom. Those on the bottom work a job to fund their product purchases. Those spoils of war then are divided up by the upline and sponsor company. Those on the bottom, who use funds from their jobs (rather than product sales) to sustain the "business", are an ever expanding rotating door of new recruits.
Although the products may be of high quality and slickly packaged, and give the impression that you are a marketeer of these sundry goods...the reality is much different. You are required to buy monthly quotas for personal use and recruit your ass off to gain entry into the promised land. The product you are really selling is a dubious "business opportunity"...your real market is "opportunity seekers".
A real business markets and sell goods and services. They are sustained by real retail sales. They order only what they know they can sell. From what I see all these mlms push recruiting as the ticket to the good life. Products and retailing mean nothing.
Another major difference is a real business owner holds title to his business...something he can sell. In mlm, you own nothing but your small product inventory.
The nature of this false and flawed business model will always have in its wake a vast turnover at the bottom of the pyramid structure. Its the nature of the beast and can be no other way, all math aside. The many "losers and the quitters" and dreamers who hang in there waiting for their ship to come in are those who support the top and sponsor company. There will always be a relentless drive to recruit at the bottom as it has nothing to do with true product retailing to support the business but finding and recruiting opportunity seekers. The emphisis is always on finding new recruits rather than selling product. And indeed, many of these mlm businesses put restrictions on the associates ability to retail the product...which subtly strengthens its true goal of recruiting as the primary revenue stream...not product sales.
These "businesses" (cough again) are predatory and prey on the many by appealing to dreams of luxury and a life of ease, especially those with troubles in their life. The start money is low to get into the "business", which is unlike a real business that takes more sizable seed money, some knowledge and guidance and a real business plan.
Those few that actually make sizable incomes from these schemes must live with the knowledge that their life is supported by the broken dreams, efforts and losses of those on the bottom. They conveniently set aside any feelings of culpability after stepping on the bodies of their fellow man so they can proclaim that they worked hard and made it.
There simply is no parallel between a network marketing model as a "business" and how a "normal?" business really works. I understand this because I own a real business that retails real product.
Network marketing is simply the greatest con game of all time. They should all be shut down.
http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=142975
It is stunning to realize the enormity of this con. Multi-million and billion dollar companies, stock exchange listed companies, companies that put on the facade of being a good corporate neighbor and innocent "business" (cough) next door.
Nework marketing is a flawed and unsustainable business model that effectively is fed and supported by those on the bottom. Those on the bottom work a job to fund their product purchases. Those spoils of war then are divided up by the upline and sponsor company. Those on the bottom, who use funds from their jobs (rather than product sales) to sustain the "business", are an ever expanding rotating door of new recruits.
Although the products may be of high quality and slickly packaged, and give the impression that you are a marketeer of these sundry goods...the reality is much different. You are required to buy monthly quotas for personal use and recruit your ass off to gain entry into the promised land. The product you are really selling is a dubious "business opportunity"...your real market is "opportunity seekers".
A real business markets and sell goods and services. They are sustained by real retail sales. They order only what they know they can sell. From what I see all these mlms push recruiting as the ticket to the good life. Products and retailing mean nothing.
Another major difference is a real business owner holds title to his business...something he can sell. In mlm, you own nothing but your small product inventory.
The nature of this false and flawed business model will always have in its wake a vast turnover at the bottom of the pyramid structure. Its the nature of the beast and can be no other way, all math aside. The many "losers and the quitters" and dreamers who hang in there waiting for their ship to come in are those who support the top and sponsor company. There will always be a relentless drive to recruit at the bottom as it has nothing to do with true product retailing to support the business but finding and recruiting opportunity seekers. The emphisis is always on finding new recruits rather than selling product. And indeed, many of these mlm businesses put restrictions on the associates ability to retail the product...which subtly strengthens its true goal of recruiting as the primary revenue stream...not product sales.
These "businesses" (cough again) are predatory and prey on the many by appealing to dreams of luxury and a life of ease, especially those with troubles in their life. The start money is low to get into the "business", which is unlike a real business that takes more sizable seed money, some knowledge and guidance and a real business plan.
Those few that actually make sizable incomes from these schemes must live with the knowledge that their life is supported by the broken dreams, efforts and losses of those on the bottom. They conveniently set aside any feelings of culpability after stepping on the bodies of their fellow man so they can proclaim that they worked hard and made it.
There simply is no parallel between a network marketing model as a "business" and how a "normal?" business really works. I understand this because I own a real business that retails real product.
Network marketing is simply the greatest con game of all time. They should all be shut down.
Friday, September 23, 2011
Amway Is Cheap And Low Risk?
One of the stupid things said by IBOs and Amway apologists is that the Amway business is cheap and low risk. While it can be true, it is not a good reason to get into business. While upfront costs can be somewhat cheap, these same people often to do not mention the ongoing costs and the cost of tools, which can add up to tens of thousands of dollars after a relatively short period of time.
Even if the opportunity is cheap to get started, wouldn't a bigger factor in starting a business be how likely you are to succeed? Amway's own numbers reveal that the opportunity is a poor one. That the average IBO earns $115 a month and that about one half of one percent of IBOs reach the Gold/Platinum level, where you might earn about $1000 a month or so. So one out of more than 200 IBOs reach a level where you earn close to minimum wage equivalent earnings (gross).
Even if something is cheap, it doesn't mean it's a good idea. Wha if you were being sold a car? The car is dirt cheap, but it looks like it may have trouble running and may have mechanical problems. Would you jump in and buy it because the salesman says it's cheap and low risk? Or would you decide that it's not worth it, even at a very low cost?
Many Amway leaders and/or those who show the plan, like to show the very best case scenario to IBOs, without giving the prospect a realistic and likely result. It's like saying the lottery is a good way to make money because the lottery winners can show off mansions, sports cars, and other fancy things they bought with their winnings. While the Amway business is not a game of chance, the presentation is done in a similar manner. A diamond is probably a 1 in 20,000 proposition, yet it is presented as if everyone in the room can go diamond. It is mathematically impossible. What is truly sad is even if that one diamond were truly wealthy (I have my doubts though), nearly all of that diamond's downline is losing money.
Cheap and low risk might sound like justification to get started, but people should ask if their small investment is worth it. Most people, the vast majority, would be better off taking the family to a movie or a nice dinner.
Even if the opportunity is cheap to get started, wouldn't a bigger factor in starting a business be how likely you are to succeed? Amway's own numbers reveal that the opportunity is a poor one. That the average IBO earns $115 a month and that about one half of one percent of IBOs reach the Gold/Platinum level, where you might earn about $1000 a month or so. So one out of more than 200 IBOs reach a level where you earn close to minimum wage equivalent earnings (gross).
Even if something is cheap, it doesn't mean it's a good idea. Wha if you were being sold a car? The car is dirt cheap, but it looks like it may have trouble running and may have mechanical problems. Would you jump in and buy it because the salesman says it's cheap and low risk? Or would you decide that it's not worth it, even at a very low cost?
Many Amway leaders and/or those who show the plan, like to show the very best case scenario to IBOs, without giving the prospect a realistic and likely result. It's like saying the lottery is a good way to make money because the lottery winners can show off mansions, sports cars, and other fancy things they bought with their winnings. While the Amway business is not a game of chance, the presentation is done in a similar manner. A diamond is probably a 1 in 20,000 proposition, yet it is presented as if everyone in the room can go diamond. It is mathematically impossible. What is truly sad is even if that one diamond were truly wealthy (I have my doubts though), nearly all of that diamond's downline is losing money.
Cheap and low risk might sound like justification to get started, but people should ask if their small investment is worth it. Most people, the vast majority, would be better off taking the family to a movie or a nice dinner.
Wednesday, September 21, 2011
A Better Way To Do Amway?
One of the major reasons why I think Amway is not such a good opportunity is because of the unfair multi tiered compensation plan. I have heard that Amway pays out about 32-33% to their IBOs, but I find it unfair in that you get rewarded for sponsoring people who move volume more than you do for actually selling products. I believe this is why so many IBOs are desperately trying to sponsor people and in some cases, deception and trickery is used in recruiting, which contributes to Amway's bad reputation.
This multi tiered compensation plan also rewards a few people at the expense of the masses. If an IBO works really hard and sold 100 PV worth of goods, that IBO would get $9 or $10 in a bonus from Amway and layers of upline would split up about $90. I fail to see how that is fair, especially when IBOs seemingly say "do the work and get paid". In this case, you do the work and your uplines get paid.
I think Amway would be more efficient by giving all IBO's 20-25% back as a bonus, with the remaining 8-13% in bonus (33 - 20 or 25) going to certain levels os achievers. I believe that this would truly allow someone to change their buying habits and gain some value. It would also be good for retention of IBOs because a 100 PV would get you a monthly bonus of about $60. If you sold 100 PV to customers, you would get the retail profit plus the bonus. I believe there would be less of an emphasis on sponsoring and more of an emphasis on selling. It would put less pressure on IBO's to recruit and sponsor, and I believe that Amway's reputation could be repaired in this manner. While you would have less emphasis on "going diamond", those who did achieve it could still get handsome bonuses.
I believe implementation of this type of compensation would also eliminate the endless need for cds and seminars. Sure, product expos and some teaching on salesmanship might help, but I believe that compensating the "majority" of IBOs would keep them interested in doing business and would lessen the need for tools. I believe this is a win-win for the majority of those in the business.
I'm sure some Amway apologists will find fault in my line of reasoning, but I believe this is a long term sustainable solution for Amway.
This multi tiered compensation plan also rewards a few people at the expense of the masses. If an IBO works really hard and sold 100 PV worth of goods, that IBO would get $9 or $10 in a bonus from Amway and layers of upline would split up about $90. I fail to see how that is fair, especially when IBOs seemingly say "do the work and get paid". In this case, you do the work and your uplines get paid.
I think Amway would be more efficient by giving all IBO's 20-25% back as a bonus, with the remaining 8-13% in bonus (33 - 20 or 25) going to certain levels os achievers. I believe that this would truly allow someone to change their buying habits and gain some value. It would also be good for retention of IBOs because a 100 PV would get you a monthly bonus of about $60. If you sold 100 PV to customers, you would get the retail profit plus the bonus. I believe there would be less of an emphasis on sponsoring and more of an emphasis on selling. It would put less pressure on IBO's to recruit and sponsor, and I believe that Amway's reputation could be repaired in this manner. While you would have less emphasis on "going diamond", those who did achieve it could still get handsome bonuses.
I believe implementation of this type of compensation would also eliminate the endless need for cds and seminars. Sure, product expos and some teaching on salesmanship might help, but I believe that compensating the "majority" of IBOs would keep them interested in doing business and would lessen the need for tools. I believe this is a win-win for the majority of those in the business.
I'm sure some Amway apologists will find fault in my line of reasoning, but I believe this is a long term sustainable solution for Amway.
Tuesday, September 20, 2011
Amway Complaints?
Over the years, I have seen literally hundreds (if not more) blogs and testimonials about Amway. Most of them decry the pitfalls of being an Amway IBO. Most of the complaints cite the fact that Amway in general has higher prices than comparable retailers and the fact that the system consisting of voicemail, books, cds and seminars ate up any profits the IBO may have made and resulted in net losses for most. One particular Amway apologist bemoans the fact that the internet is full of bad testomonials about Amway. The reason why there are so many negative testimonials about Amway is because over the years, thousands, possibly millions either had a bad experience for the reasons I cited above, or personally know of someone who had a bad experience.
Amway defenders will often cite the fact that many IBOs sign up and "do nothing" as their defense to this. But I will easily point out that I haven't seen anyone say they signed up, failed to do anything or order products, quit and started blogging about a bad experience in Amway. These defenders will also compare Amway to the gym where people sign up and "do nothing". Whether true or not, I also do not see people who sign up and "do nothing" complain about not receiving health benefits by simply signing up. It is a very weak defense. Conversely, I have seen numerous accounts of folks like myself who did put in effort, some for many years, who did what upline advised and did not see the financial rewards that is promoted in "the plan".
Amway defenders will then try to justify themselves, saying that the better business bureau (BBB) receives few formal complaints about Amway. I will agree with this. Many IBOs never bother to file formal complaints to the BBB or to Amway because in many, probably most cases, the person who quits and may have had a bad experience, was sponsored into the business. The sponsor was often a friend or family member of the IBO who left the business. Many will simply leave and forget the episode and chalk it up to a learning experience in life. Some will complain, but really have to ne venue to voice their remorse about joining. Some of us have found the interent to be quite effective in sharing our experiences and our opinions on why the business did not work. This is what one Amway defender calls the "internet war". What I have pointed out is that critics most often simply point out what the IBOs themselves have done. In many cases, the IBO is his own worst enemy. Afterall, critics didn't deny Amway and Quixtar had a connection, nor did critics make up claims about perfect water, etc.
It would appear that most of the problems has a root in the AMO systems, such as WWDB, BWW, LTD, or N21. Now, not all upline leaders are unethical, but it appears that many are, and new IBOs have no way to identify the good from the bad. It also appears that some of these upline leaders will issue bad avice. Advice that is detrimental to the IBOs, but financially beneficial to themselves, such as telling IBOs to never miss a function, or to buy more cds. In many cases, these unethical uplines do not care about IBO success, their goal is just to move as many support materials as possible, so they can fund their "diamond" lifestyle. Sadly, it is also apparent that the diamond lifestyle may be a facade in some cases. An illusion of wealth portrayed as a recruiting tool.
If you recognize some of these warning signs, ask tough questions of your potential sponsor and visit this or some of the blogs linked to this one for more information.
Amway defenders will often cite the fact that many IBOs sign up and "do nothing" as their defense to this. But I will easily point out that I haven't seen anyone say they signed up, failed to do anything or order products, quit and started blogging about a bad experience in Amway. These defenders will also compare Amway to the gym where people sign up and "do nothing". Whether true or not, I also do not see people who sign up and "do nothing" complain about not receiving health benefits by simply signing up. It is a very weak defense. Conversely, I have seen numerous accounts of folks like myself who did put in effort, some for many years, who did what upline advised and did not see the financial rewards that is promoted in "the plan".
Amway defenders will then try to justify themselves, saying that the better business bureau (BBB) receives few formal complaints about Amway. I will agree with this. Many IBOs never bother to file formal complaints to the BBB or to Amway because in many, probably most cases, the person who quits and may have had a bad experience, was sponsored into the business. The sponsor was often a friend or family member of the IBO who left the business. Many will simply leave and forget the episode and chalk it up to a learning experience in life. Some will complain, but really have to ne venue to voice their remorse about joining. Some of us have found the interent to be quite effective in sharing our experiences and our opinions on why the business did not work. This is what one Amway defender calls the "internet war". What I have pointed out is that critics most often simply point out what the IBOs themselves have done. In many cases, the IBO is his own worst enemy. Afterall, critics didn't deny Amway and Quixtar had a connection, nor did critics make up claims about perfect water, etc.
It would appear that most of the problems has a root in the AMO systems, such as WWDB, BWW, LTD, or N21. Now, not all upline leaders are unethical, but it appears that many are, and new IBOs have no way to identify the good from the bad. It also appears that some of these upline leaders will issue bad avice. Advice that is detrimental to the IBOs, but financially beneficial to themselves, such as telling IBOs to never miss a function, or to buy more cds. In many cases, these unethical uplines do not care about IBO success, their goal is just to move as many support materials as possible, so they can fund their "diamond" lifestyle. Sadly, it is also apparent that the diamond lifestyle may be a facade in some cases. An illusion of wealth portrayed as a recruiting tool.
If you recognize some of these warning signs, ask tough questions of your potential sponsor and visit this or some of the blogs linked to this one for more information.
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