Amway Testimony?

 A blog visitor sent me this email in the past. It might be helpful to some people, so I'll post it.  There are some spelling and grammatical errors, but so be it.  

We were part of what im coming to find out as a smaller more unknown team in our region. I’ve run into many Amroids since I first joined until now, and they’ve always seemed to be part of N21 or BWW or WWDB but im not sure if our group was any of those? We were part of something called the UR Association. I believe through some unspoken issues years ago in upline, our group was adopted either to Dexter Yagers organization or from his organization. Its never been fully or properly explained to us. Anyway, my upline always had CDs from multiple organizations teaching systems, and we purchased them all. This was because we partly refused to sign up with URA and partly because we just didn’t have to money for that type of monthly fee. We weren’t on Kate either because of this. When my significant other (SO) and I first joined almost 4 years ago, we were typical for this business; broke, unemployed, and young. We went through the paces or coming out to the meetings as guests for free, attending some product expos, etc, until one day it started costing us as guests (we were still evaluating at the time) to attend the regular open meetings. Foolishly, we figured “well we might as well sign up then!”



Looking back now, all the signs were there for us to see since the start. After we got in, our uplines group slowly fell apart. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen his group grow or be on the rise since I joined. I was told of the glory days just months before of how there were over 100 people in his group attending functions, all the pin levels on his team, the recognitions they’ve received, etc. When we joined and he was on the decline, we thought nothing of it, as it was played off as normal and that “Some Will, Some Wont, So What, Some Where, Six Will, so Stop Whining, and Start Working”. We also attended a major Family Reunion shortly after officially signing up and again, the signs were always there, but we just never noticed. That function that we went to was the largest our upline Diamonds organization was we’d ever see. Our open meetings slowly began getting smaller, and we had to increase ticket costs to “pay for the room”. It went from an open meeting every 2 weeks at $5 to an open meeting once a month at $10. Over the years it started switching locations as well, from one hotel conference room to another, and now it is currently held at a Condo, in the main floors’ lobby room (I believe there is still a cost incurred)



One of the CDs that we were always so “keen” to listen to was one by a young diamond from the US, who built a good portion of his organization in Hawaii and in the western states. He’s young, funny, relatable, and therefore an obvious hit with our young group. Anyway, on his CD he mentions that the only “negative thing that can be found online about Amway is that we allegedly make all our money off books and CDs”. Im loosely paraphrasing, but basically he went on saying “…like that’s a bad thing. Think about it, what's the first thing you do when you are successful at something? Golfing, any sport, a business? Don’t you write a book, cut a CD and go on public speaking events?!” Which of course when twisted around it does seem to make sense, so we never really questioned it. We thought Wow these are totally honest about it! Theres not really much else to write about at this point, like I said earlier, a lot of your blogs were 100% correct about what still goes on. The mind games, what uplines say, what's said at opens, all of it. My SO and I reached a max of I believe 300/400 PV and 200PV respectively. SO had a slightly larger group (we were building it separately at the time) with maybe 5-6 downline at its peak, and I had maximum 2. We’ve been in it for 4 years and have seen no results. Despite having no money for monthly subscriptions to books and CDs, we were core. We tried our best to get the proper 50/150, we always used all the products and promoted it like crazy. We tried contacting all the time and showed plans whenever we could. We listened, read, attended all functions, were accountable, honest, and the only thing we didn’t have was Kate. But the results were never there. Even with the amount of downline each of us had at our maximum, we still never broke more then 300-400PV. It just wasn’t happening. Since we’ve stopped, I have purchased a new(er) car, 2010 top trim, and with a 1 year delayed gratification goal, we saved enough money for a destination vacation paid for in cash. We spared no expense while we were there and bought all sorts of gifts for our friends and ourselves. We are also planning more trips in this coming year.


There are little details here and there im sure i could mention about the really crazy BS we've been through, but perhaps another time :) we're in a phase right now of not thinking about it or dealing with it.

Thanks for reading!

"Anon"

Business Principles Ignored?

 So many IBOs quit and fail, I think the Amway corporation might need a calculator to keep track. And of the IBOs who work and try hard, most of those IBOs also end up in failure and losing money. After years of blogging about Amway, I believe it is because the uplines and the tools they sell to help IBOs are ineffective. When I was an IBO, I don't recall many tools that contained information teaching me how to run a business or how to run an Amway business. There was no talk about tracking income and expenses. In fact, our group was advised to ignore the facts. The scary thing about this is that it is evident that some groups are still teaching this.

Many IBOs and prospects are lured into the business by displays of wealth and not because of bonafide and verified business credentials. A friend of mine sold his franchise business a few years ago and part of what he provided to the prospective buyer was the last three years of his tax returns, personal and business returns. But try asking an upline to even see a business profit loss statement or a schedule C business tax return and you are likely to be told it is none of your business. Instead, upline may show off a photocopy of a bonus check which may be an annual or a once in a lifetime bonus. Or upline may show off a sports car as evidence that they are successful. Sadly, some of these uplines might be broke, they may owe back taxes to the IRS and/or they may even be in debt but simply showing off wealth.

Some uplines have the nerve to discourage young people from furthering their education because they would rather, they channel their money into Amway and tools. Some people are told to make family sacrifices to attend more functions or to buy more standing orders. I will grant that not all uplines do this but based on my experience, I would say more uplines do this than not. They will apply subtle pressure on new IBOs and the newbies probably don't know much about Amway or business, so they basically have to choice but to trust a diamond who has allegedly achieved the pinnacle of success in Amway. Then uplines will often betray their disciples by saying that failure is the personal responsibility of the IBO. That advice needs to be discerned by the new IBO and bad advice should be discarded, as if a new IBO would know what good or bad advice is.

I also see experienced IBOs who don't seem to know how taxes work. I see IBOs who were given the impression that Amway is easy and that they will work once and enjoy the fruits of their labor forever. Oddly, I don't know of a single IBO who did the work once and sat back collecting residual income forever. I find it odd that even tenured crown ambassadors continue to keep busy work schedules. I suppose they could just enjoy this lifestyle but still I find it odd that nobody I know of could specifically name an IBO who achieved diamond and higher and sat back collecting income while enjoying the beaches of the world.

Seems that IBO turnover and failure is more common than not in the AMO world. It also appears that incoming IBOs are like fuel to a fire. Without continuous recruitment and replacement of IBOs who quit, the organization would eventually fall apart along with the bonuses that the higher ups enjoy. It is my informed opinion that many IBOs fail because they aren't taught sound business principles. Despite the constant flow of cds, voice messages and functions and meetings, it doesn't seem as if any practical information is passed from upline to downline. Only messages of never quitting and continuing to dedicate themselves to the system. The result is inevitable and the expected result is failure.

Legitimacy?

 I've debated with some IBOs about retail sales to customers in the past. While many Amway IBOs claim to have real customers and to teach retail, the reality seems to paint a different picture. Even an Amway corporate blogger at one time wrote a piece stating that sales to non IBOs were 3.4% of Amway (Quixtar) sales some years back.  I don't even believe that the Amway run blog/forum is even around right now.  Apologists will say that many IBOs are actually customers who only buy stuff and do not build the business. While there might be some IBO customers, I highly doubt that the majority of IBOs are paying renewal fees just to buy soap and overpriced vitamins.

I know some groups have their schtick down. They will say they "teach" their IBOs to have sales to about 20 customers which gives them a monthly income and allows them to qualify for a PV bonus. It certainly sounds great, but I would bet that IBOs with 20 actual regular customers are about as common as a founder's diamond. In many groups, the IBOs are taught to "buy from themselves" primarily. Thus, the income generated for the diamonds simply comes out of the pockets of their downline IBOs. Sadly, "serious" IBOs often wind up paying their upline (via tool sales) to learn that this sham is a good idea.

I can prove right here that IBOs are not focused on selling products. The focus is on selling the opportunity. How can I prove it? Very simple. Every single time I have seen or heard about the Amway business, there was talk about the economy, inflation, etc. The speaker talks about his easy lifestyle, and how he made it big by capitalizing on an opportunity, the Amway opportunity. Then the 6-4-2 plan or some similar variation is shown to the audience. It is shown as "simple", "reasonable" and "doable". The plan is about making money, typically six figures at the diamond level and a decent income at the platinum level. There is little mention about having to sell products, and little or no mention about the actual products that Amway carries. The hype in the meetings is to sell the opportunity. Sure, after the plan is over, a prospect might be given some samples and such, but the emphasis is still on the business opportunity. The products are usually a side note in the presentation.

While IBOs might talk a good game about selling products, the reality is that many active IBOs have very few actual customers. It is my informed opinion that even the few real customers are often sympathetic friends and family of the IBO, rather than people who are genuinely seeking Amway goods and services. I wonder if anyone in Amway has ever "shown the plan" by starting out with product presentations and samples? When you really think about it, unless the business has real customers, all you are doing is exploiting those you sponsor for their personal consumption, which might benefit your business a bit, but won't benefit your downline unless they can dupe others into joining them.

So, take a real look at your business. Are you actually selling goods to outside customers or are you engaged in a personal consumption game? My understanding is that an IBO does not qualify for a bonus without sales to actual customers. Are you legit or not?

You Need Amway To Fight The Four "I's"?

  One of the Amway pitches used by upline was the four Is.   The upline would give a recruitment speech about how the four Is (I) would suck the life out of you.  Now you might be wondering what the heck I’m talking about?   Well, the four Is are insurance, interest, income tax and inflation.  Each of these factors basically made your job futile as you would never be able to overcome these issues because of the limitations of a job.  Or at least that's what Amway leaders want you to believe.

Most everyone has various types of insurance, typically car, home (or renter's insurance) and possibly life insurance where you pay for something you hope you will never need to use.  This expense is depicted as a necessary evil that helps make people broke.  Next you have interest.  As many or most people are in debt, you wind up paying interest.   You pay interest on any debts you have but receive very little of it for your money in the bank.  Uplines often claim diamonds pay cash for everything, loans are stupid because you need to pay interest, and Amway will make you debt free and living a cash only lifestyle.  Total BS.

Then you have income tax.  The government makes sure they take a piece of your earnings to provide public services and taxes seemingly only go up but never down.  You can’t escape paying taxes.  It’s the only sure thing in life besides death.  Lastly there’s inflation.  Luckily with interest rates, they seem to be slowly coming down and inflation is also starting to get under control, but the common denominator is that all of the four Is take pieces of your income.

What gets weird from here is how upline will toss you a pitch to justify how someway somehow, Amway levels the playing field and by doing Amway you can overcome the four Is.  I find it odd how so many IBOs miss the fact that they are cash negative directly attributable to Amway and the related Amway tool and function sales.  But somehow this important point gets missed by so many IBOs sitting in the audience as if it goes right over their head, or upline downplays it as a nothing burger.

While the uplines may give a slippery way of pitching Amway, anyone with common sense and the ability to do some basic general math should be able to see right thru the charade.  How can a cash negative proposition help you with the four Is?  The answer is it can’t, but you need to be able to discern the forest from the trees to see through upline deception.   Also, when you sit and think about it, how does an Amway business help you to deal with these issues?    It only makes things worse if you have more negative cash flow.  This is why I've stated that doing nothing is likely better than Amway.  LOL

Most Do Nothing?

 I saw some recent discussion and some people were debating the average income of Amway IBOs and how $202 a month (average IBO income) as reported by Amway is a lot considering most IBOs do little or nothing. Well, that $202 a month average income survey many years old. Somewhat laughable when Amway defenders like to hang their hats on the possibility that Amway critics claims are outdated. Maybe Amway defenders should complain that Amway's own information is old and outdated. I wonder what updated numbers would reveal.  An even smaller average income?   

Also, what many people are not aware of is that the average income figure as published by Amway, excluded IBOs who did nothing. It only counted "active" IBOs, although Amway's definition of active can leave you scratching your head. Amway describes active as someone who attended a meeting or attempted to sell products. However, we know that unless you actually sell something, you won't make anything and certainly attending a meeting takes money away from you and is not a way to earn money in Amway. Let me also add that Amway diamonds are also a part of the average income, so the "average" is very likely inflated by the six-figure income of the diamonds.

To me, the biggest question is why do so many IBOs get interested enough to sign up and then do nothing? It is my informed opinion that there are several reasons why this happens. I believe that some IBOs are such pests, that their prospects sign up just to get their IBO sponsor to leave them alone. While it may not be common, I believe it happens. Also, I believe some IBOs go into shock when they see the prices of some products. This will cause newbies to realize that the business is nearly impossible before they even get started. Or, a new IBO will go and talk to family and friends about Amway and will get shot down because in North America, just about everyone seemingly had, or knows someone who's had a bad experience in Amway. Sadly, the experience may not be a result of Amway the corporation, but of unethical IBOs who may lie, cheat or trick people into attending meetings. Some IBOs actually get started but soon realize that that Amway opportunity along with the systems such as N21, WWDB or BWW, simply becomes a money pit with the tools and system expenses exceed the monthly Amway income. A few IBOs will bite hard and stay dedicated for a few years or more. Many of these IBOs end up reporting losses that may exceed tens of thousands of dollars.

Sadly, many IBOs and prospects are recruited by family and friends. Thus, even if they quit or have a very bad experience, they just quit and disappear. Folks generally will not file complaints with Amway or the Better Business Bureau (BBB). So IBOs, even if you did little or nothing in Amway, if you got ripped off or treated unethically, you may want to consider filing a formal complaint with Amway or with the BBB. So why do so many IBOs do little or nothing? I believe the answer is crystal clear. Most IBOs do little or nothing because it's not worth the effort for most as very few IBOs will ever attain any kind of significant income. In fact, doing nothing is likely to get you a more favorable result than someone who attends the functions or who subscribes to standing order because doing nothing is cheaper than being an IBO and paying for tools and functions.

Why Joecool Blogs?

 Over the years, I've had comments left here, some deleted and some published, with IBOs and/or Amway supporters calling me names and accusing me of "bashing" Amway. I believe that these folks are misguided. If you carefully read my blog posts, many are not about Amway the corporation, but are aimed at the abusive practices of certain AMOs, or the groups that sell their system of tapes, cds, books, KATE, and functions. I believe that Amway the corporation is somewhat culpable as they did not reign in the abusers, but still, it is certain LOSs who teach bad business practices and give IBOs bad advice, which incidentally, costs the IBOs money.

Joecool was once upon a time, an Amway IBO, and officially quit Amway sometime in 1998. The name quixtar was already floating around. I quit, got on with my life and basically forgot about Amway. But more and more, I discovered that my upline leaders had been liars and had seriously misrepresented the business. I am from the era where upline leaders told us that nobody made a cent from the tools, which is now known as a lie. They told us that diamonds pay cash for nearly everything, which includes homes. We know that is a lie. Based on what I heard about my sponsor, I believe it is still taught as my sponsor, who is a physician, is still renting a small home in a rural area on Oahu. I started to participate on the now defunct Quixtar blog to learn more about the tool scam, and I started blogging to be able to help others learn about what I had discovered. My blog used to get thousands of visitors each day, although that is no longer the case. I have helped many people over the years who benefited by the experiences and information that I have shared. I do not receive any financial compensation for blogging.

For those who call Joecool a loser, let me talk about some things I have accomplished in life sine I quit Amway. I received several promotions at work, and recently started a new job where I was offered a pretty nice salary.  I am now retired and I'm only in my 50's as of this writing.   I own my home (I did not pay in cash, LOL). I bowled a 300 game, made a hole in one, and ran several marathons. I'm just an average middle-class citizen in Hawaii. I started Joecool's blog in 2006 or so. My old blog has been deleted as the host did not maintain the site well and I eventually got hacked and sabotaged. I started this current site on blogger in late 2009.

I am not here to "steal" anyone's dream. I am not here to "bash" Amway. But Amway, the business opportunity is one where most people do not make money to begin with. Add in the expenses for tapes, cds, voicemail and functions and you have almost a 100% chance of failure. Yet some upline leaders will promote Amway as a easy shortcut to retirement with a surefire chance of success if you dedicate to the system. But the system does not work. There is no bonafide evidence that the system works. This is what Joecool's blog is about - primarily the systems and its problems.  And to expose the many lies uplines use to bait and hook their faithful downline into buying tools and functions.

Integrity?

 I used to follow the blog of a WWDB IBO named "Shaun". He runs the blog called "Expeditions Of Truth" http://expeditionoftruths.com/..  The blog is not running as Shaun has now quit Amway (imagine that?  He swore he would be a double eagle ruby making will over 100k.  What could possibly go wrong?)  Now to be fair, Shaun was likely a hard working guy trying to do what was best for his family.  But he got duped into selling out for Amway and probably saw the light and quit.

He seemed to think that not only is he in business with people full of integrity, he also thought that he was going to retire in November 2011. Is this now March 2026?  While I think doing business with people of integrity is a good thing, I also know of many successful people in business who are ruthless.  Sometimes in business, you have to be that way to survive and thrive.  So are Amway and in particular, WWDB people full of integrity or are they just as ruthless as other business people? Does it matter? In my opinion, it doesn't matter except for the fact that WWDB people seem to think that they have integrity filled leaders.

Well, let's look at some of these leaders. Back in the 1990's before the easy access of information on the internet, the current batch of WWDB leaders swore that nobody made a profit on tools. Nobody knew the truth at the time. We now know that this was a lie. Is this integrity? We know that a triple diamond in WWDB  was in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings. Not paying for your obligations is integrity? We know that the same triple diamond and another lesser diamond had homes foreclosed (Public information). Is that a move filled with integrity? With the tons of money that diamonds  make, couldn't they have made an effort to pay off their debts?
If you look at a blog linked to this one "Rocket's Rants", there's a YouTube video of a "crown" telling rank and file IBOs that they can make "hundreds of thousands of dollars" a month. First of all, I wonder if this crown has achieved this himself, let alone any others? Even if someone had achieved it, it would be illegal or unethical to portray that kind of success as achievable to a a prospect.  

A prominent double diamond used to talk about how WWDB had a low divorce rate. Is it full on integrity for WWDB leaders to separate or divorce when they talk about integrity and how Amway and WWDB saves marriages? What about other WWDB diamond divorcees?  Are they full of integrity? What say you diamonds in WWDB?  Is it integrity to say you built the business as a single when the diamond previously built the business with his former wife?  (The Danziks)

Amway's owner Rich DeVos acknowledged that the "tools" were likely a pyramid scam and Amway did nothing after sales dropped following some attempts to clean it up. Is that an integrity move? I don't know but it sure seems as if WWDB and Amway have issues where integrity is concerned.