Joecool's Blog?

 Over the years, I've had numerous comments left here, some deleted (for racial and abusive language) and the vast majority published.   Many Amway IBOs and/or Amway supporters often calling me names and accusing me of "bashing" Amway. I believe that these folks are misguided. If you carefully read my blog posts, many are not about Amway the corporation, but are aimed at the abusive practices of certain AMOs, or the groups that sell their system of tapes, cds, books, KATE, and functions. I believe that Amway the corporation is somewhat culpable as they did not reign in the abusers, but still, it is certain LOSs who teach bad business practices and give IBOs bad advice, which incidentally, costs the IBOs money.

Joecool was once upon a time, an Amway IBO, and officially quit Amway sometime in 1998. The name quixtar was already floating around. I quit, got on with my life and basically forgot about Amway. But more and more, I discovered that my upline leaders had been liars and had seriously misrepresented the business. I am from the era where upline leaders told us that nobody made a cent from the tools, which is now known as a lie. They told us that diamonds pay cash for nearly everything, which includes homes. We know that is a lie. Based on what I heard about my sponsor, I believe it is still taught as my sponsor, who is a physician, is still renting a small home in a rural area on Oahu. I started to participate on the now defunct Quixtar blog to learn more about the tool scam, and I started blogging to be able to help others learn about what I had discovered. My blog used to get thousands of visitors each day, although that is no longer the case. I have helped many people over the years who benefited by the experiences and information that I have shared. I do not receive any financial compensation for blogging.

For those who call Joecool a loser, let me talk about some things I have accomplished in life sine I quit Amway. I received several promotions at work, and recently got promoted to a new job where I was offered a pretty nice salary.  I am now retired and I'm only in my late 50's as of this writing.   I own my home (I did not pay in cash, LOL). I bowled a 300 game, made a hole in one, and ran several marathons. I'm just an average middle-class citizen in Hawaii. I started Joecool's blog in 2006 or so. My old blog has been deleted as the host did not maintain the site well and I eventually got hacked and sabotaged. I started this current site on blogger in late 2009.

I am not here to "steal" anyone's dream. I am not here to "bash" Amway. But Amway, the business opportunity is one where most people do not make money to begin with. Add in the expenses for tapes, cds, voicemail and functions and you have almost a 100% chance of failure. Yet some upline leaders will promote Amway as a easy shortcut to retirement with a surefire chance of success if you dedicate to the system. But the system does not work. There is no bonafide evidence that the system works. This is what Joecool's blog is about - primarily the systems and its problems.  And to expose the many lies uplines use to bait and hook their faithful downline into buying tools and functions.

An Observation?

 http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=192279&page=8

It's refreshing to see so many good people on this forum telling the truth about Amway. It looks like the pro-Amway shills here and on other sites are becoming increasingly outnumbered and desperate. I've read through this entire thread and think it is hilarious how many times the shill has to move the goal-posts or play word games to make Amway look like an amazing business opportunity.

I was originally introduced to Amway many years ago in my late teens by an uncle of mine. I attended a few of their seminars, and was impressed at first. But the whole thing started to seem ridiculous and unrealistic and so I didn't get involved any further. Also, I'm not that materialistic, so Amway's message doesn't appeal to me. I wish my uncle had been more skeptical.

My uncle was very devoted to Amway for a few years. He bought all their products(especially the tapes and books), tried to get others to buy them, and also tried to recruit all his family and friends into his new religion. He eventually lost money and friends and alienated himself from much of his family.

Already heavily in debt, he eventually fell for another, even bigger get-rich-quick scam shortly after quitting Amway(to Amway's credit, they don't threaten to kill anyone for leaving Amway). This one robbed him of his entire life savings. The scammers got away with it because they knew how to play him right(he met one of them through Amway). His wife divorced him soon after.

As if this wasn't enough, after making a modest financial recovery with his business over the course of several years, he loses it all to yet another scam. He had to borrow heavily from the few friends he had left since no bank would ever give him a loan, and almost no one in the family has anything to do with him anymore. I haven't seen him for 15 years.

One thing I wonder about my uncle is if all those seminars and inspirational tapes and books softened him up to fall for all those other scams he fell for after quitting Amway(he didn't have a reputation for being gullible before joining Amway, though he was never that bright to begin with). If I remember correctly, he tended to blame himself for failing at Amway, and may have never understood that it was a big scam or at least not a good business opportunity.

I still remember those crazy seminars and how they told everyone that joining the Amway cult will likely lead to yachts, exotic vacations surrounded by hot bikini babes, and shiny expensive cars, among other symbols of wealth. Everyone is told at the seminars and in the "tools" that they have all this unfulfilled potential, but to realize this potential we must avoid those small-minded "dream killers"(skeptical family members and friends).

The story about my stupid uncle is true. There are many other people out there just like him who have fallen for Amway and others MLMs. The few people I've met who claimed they were very successful at Amway usually seemed sleazy or I would find out years later they were up to their eyeballs in debt.

The person who said before that the people who regularly attend these seminars are mostly fools and misfits was spot on.

Responsibility?

 One of the disturbing things I have noticed about Amway IBOs and IBO leaders is how they will tell downline to trust them. To trust them as they have already blazed a trail. No need to re-invent the wheel. Just ride the coattails of your upline to success. The system is proven. Many IBOs take this to heart and put forth tremendous effort. Then when they fail, upline will shun them and tell them that the failure is their own. That they are personally responsible for failure. The sad thing is that many IBOs believe this and allow their upline a "pass" when it comes to responsibility.

Now I am not talking about IBOs who sign up and do nothing or never place an order. I do believe that the fact that many IBOs sign up and do nothing brings concerns about how these IBOs were recruited, but I do not recall ever seeing an IBO do nothing and then complain that Amway was a scam or anything like that. What does concern me and should concern Amway prospects is that the IBOs are paying for the advice that doesn't work. A dedicated IBO who is on standing order, book of the month and attending functions are paying for these tools in order to be successful, or successful as their upline claims they will be.

What's interesting, however, is that many people who are critical of Amway and the systems, put forth much effort, did everything they were told, and did not find the success that upline promoted, or in some cases, guaranteed. My former sponsor was still active; last I heard and has been in Amway for over 20 years. I do not believe he has ever gone beyond platinum, and I know that he was never a Q12 platinum. Some Amway apologists might see being a platinum as a bonus, but when you are hard core sold out to the systems, platinum is a break even or make a small profit business. Factor in that time spent by husband and wife and these folks are breaking even or making a fraction of minimum wage. Is this the dream that will allow you to buy mansions with a cash payment?

What is also disturbing is how people will tout the system as responsible for any success but hide the vast majority that the system doesn't help. Sure, some will succeed in Amway, but for every success, there are hundreds if not thousands or tens of thousands who fail. And if you consider diamond as the benchmark of success, the failures could be in the millions. As I said, some succeed, but very very few in relation to the number who try. Going diamond is probably less common in the US than winning the lottery.

Succeed and the systems and upline take credit, but fail or quit and it is your own responsibility. Are these the kinds of leaders or mentors you want advice from? It's a matter of "heads I win and tails you lose" (not in yout favor) if you buy into this system.

The Secret Of Amway Success?

  My upline diamond used to say that the key to success is Amway is duplication, or copying.  He would use an analogy of being in grade school and copying someone else’s answers and that if you can master that one skill, you will be successful in Amway.  Even things downline IBOs do should be duplicatable is what upline would day, meaning others need to be able to copy it.  But oddly, the few people who can actually copy or duplicate their way to success is very miniscule.  In fact, it seems like most IBOs wind up copying each other while doing what upline advises and they still lose money in droves.  

Doesn’t that sound sweet and simple?  Just copy as if you’re in school and looking over the shoulder of the class brainiac. Very easy and straightforward right?  But obviously that concept doesn’t work.  If it did, there would be a lot of success constantly churning from the rank-and-file IBOs.  But instead, what we see is a revolving door of people coming and going (quitting) without making a net profit or losing money, generally from business expenses such as tools and functions.  Many IBOs may try for a while but find the process difficult and frankly, frustrating along the way, not to mention the part about the masses losing money on a regular basis.

And it’s no wonder that duplication doesn’t work in real life because the system is too severely flawed.  You are buying and/or selling products that are relatively unknown and generic in nature but being sold at premium prices.  Now that’s not to say all Amway products are bad or are of bad value but overall, you can find better value if you shop at Costco or Walmart.   It’s pretty hard to dispute that unless you’re a fully dedicated and indoctrinated IBO.   I can go to Costco for example, a get a cart full of stuff for a few hundred dollars and the same amount of cash gets you maybe a handbasket of stuff from Amway.

In general, most upline teaching has “core” steps for IBOs to follow and while they are not complicated, they are difficult to follow.  In particular, finding people agreeable to see the plan or to sell products to are difficult tasks and you can’t just duplicate yourself to success.  But what IBOs can do is listen to audios, read books, buy their defacto 100 PV quota, and attend all meetings and functions.  This is what the majority of core IBOs do, based on my own observations from my time in the business as an IBO myself.

Sadly, the steps that are easily copied or duplicated are the ones that cost IBOs money, and the steps that are vital to growth such as selling products and showing the plan are the ones that are nearly impossible to duplicate. And that in a nutshell is why the vast majority of IBOs make nothing or lose money in the Amway business opportunity. And that is my well-informed opinion.  

No Crossline?

  One of the really stupid and hypocritical things that upline taught the group was no cross lining. In other words, if you had a different sponsor or upline diamond, you were not to talk about business with other business owners.  This is stupid because an effective way to learn techniques and to get tips is to talk to other rank and file business owners.  You exchange ideas and tips on how to do things better.  Why would upline discourage this unless they want to control your information intake, in my informed opinion?

If not, why are IBOs expected to attend (and pay for) meetings where a cross line diamond is speaking?  Why would IBOs pay for audios to hear cross line speakers tell them about the business?   The premise is that a cross line doesn’t have a direct interest in your Amway business, but it seems that cross lining is ok if your upline can profit from it via the sales of audios and functions.   

The real reason the diamonds don’t want you talking to others is because the absolute truth might come out.  That you may have been highly dedicated to Amway and the systems for years and did everything that was asked of you only to suffer a net loss of income.  Or that you did everything that upline taught you, but you were still unable to sponsor a single down line.  In my case also, my sponsor committed an "Amway sin" by bouncing a bonus check to my business.  I'm sure that's taboo to speak about.  

Another thing is that the rank and file might compare what they’ve been taught and begin to realize that they’re being scammed.  I once spoke to a cross line IBO and that’s when I started to realize how stupid some of our practices were.  I was an IBO in the old days where you call in your orders and pick up the products.  Our group’s practice took hours and hours because you had to go to your sponsor‘s house and read off your list as they filled your order.  My cross line friend said their upline just put all your stuff in a box and noted anything that was not yet fulfilled. You paid and left in minutes. 

So, this is just another example of stupid business practices taught and perpetuated by upline.  But the main reason is they just don’t want the rank and file to speak the truth about what’s really going on in the business.  When you have this kind of teaching, you’re better off running as fast as you can in the other direction. 

Merits Of The System

 Amway has been around for a long time. When the company first began, it wasn't uncommon for people to go door to door, perhaps with products in a radio flyer to sell them as a way to make some extra money. There was no extensive training program that I know of and certainly, there wasn't the stigma that the company has now. But in today's world, when people refer to Amway as being a scam, what they are usually referring to the motivational leaders and the associated systems. I believe that the systems were first invented as a genuine way to train distance groups, but the income and power of systems seduced some upline leaders into becoming conmen. Thus, I believe that many if not most systems are corrupted. I witnessed personally and still hear of stories where IBOs are encouraged to go into debt or sacrifice basic family needs in order to purchase more system materials. Amway's involvement in this is knowing that these abuses occurred and not taking any substantial action.

But what are the merits of the program when broken down? Many Amway defenders are quick to point out that many IBOs "do nothing", which may be true, but for the sake of argument, let's not even consider the ones who do nothing. Take the 6-4-2 plan that many use in recruiting. It involves 1 IBO with 78 downlines, all of whom do 100 PV. This plan also generally assumes that IBOs will be a part of the system apparently, because non system IBOs generally do not have the dedication to keep moving and selling products. This is because many systems teach IBOs that they are successful when they lose money! In 6-4-2. you have one platinum, allegedly the break-even point for system IBOs, and 78 non platinum, spending money on products, and winding up with a net loss, if they are dedicated to the system.

Of course, system expenses vary, depending on which system you are a part of. I have heard IBOs mention that their system expenses may be as low as $75 a month, to over $1000 month for hard core fully dedicated IBOs. I have issued a challenge, which no one has ever undertaken, to shows an actually platinum group where the collective group made a net profit after system expenses were accounted for. Noone has ever come forward to disprove this point. I believe a retailing group could show a net profit, but I do not believe that a group of prosumers or buy from yourselfers could ever collectively net a profit.

So for Amway IBOs and prospects, please keep in mind that it is the system that is often the downfall of many IBOs. A dedication to any system is very likely to nearly guarantee that you will end up with a net loss as an IBO. Can someone still succeed? Sure, but your chances are similar to that of someone hitting a big jackpot in the lottery.

Low Overhead?

   One of the major selling points for the Amway business was low overhead (basically business expenses) and the ability to make quick profits.  But is this true or just another list of lies told by the diamonds?   Basically when you’re being pitched on Amway, you're told that you can sell stuff to make money, and that you can save money by purchasing from yourself.   On the surface, who doesn't want to make money or save money?

Then because you have low or no overhead expenses, Amway just makes sense.  But it’s all just a selling point because the upline diamond will then sell you overhead.  In other words, they will sell you on the vital necessity to purchase tools and functions.  I questioned this as a prospect and was told that so and so diamond was a multi millionaire and feels that tools are as vital as breathing air but I was welcome to go it alone and succeed where nobody else has (without tools).   So to the newbie or prospect, the tools are defacto required when framed in that manner.

This claim that Amway has little to no overhead is an outright lie because in the Amway business, the tools are your primary business expenses, or overhead.  Even if you manage to sell a few products to actual customers for a profit, more than likely you will still wind up with a net loss because the ongoing use of tools and functions can become expensive over time.  Many former IBOs have indicated that you can pile up thousands of dollars in losses over a few months and much more if you remain dedicated to the system and the teaching.  

Now the cost of tools and functions would be worth it if the system was churning out success stories on a regular basis. To try and up sell this, diamonds will show you examples of a new platinum or other pin, but won’t mention that a bunch of other big pins may have failed to requalify for their current t levels.  If you go and look up Amway revenues for the last handful of years, you will see that revenues were flat or in decline, which means business was not growing.  

So what does this all mean   Simple, it means joining Amway makes it highly likely, nearly assured that you will have a net loss of income if you join Amway and participate in the system of tools and functions.  Also now with covid 19, I can only imagine that the ability to recruit down line or approach others to sell products is greatly hampered by state or local restrictions.  Good luck to you if you read this and join anyway.