Part of what Joecool perceives as the problem with the Amway opportunity is the utter lack of accountability of some upline leaders. They may tell you to trust them, to submit to them and simply copy or duplicate what they have done, and they imply that you will get the same results. Many downlines over the years have put in blood sweat and tears into the business only to suffer massive losses following the system. Upline will then place the blame on the downline. Citing that they either did not try hard enough or they didn't put in enough time and effort. Despite a shockingly low success rate of system IBOs, nobody seems to fault the system as being flawed. And nobody seems to question whether upline is at fault.
In my observations, I would say that many financial systems are similar. Whether it be BWW, N21, WWDB, real estate gurus or other systems, the success rate is low. Many systems that advertise on television will have a disclaimer that a success testimony is a rare or unique experience. I believe it is similar to the systems in Amway. Dedication or continued spending on the system is not the problem. The problem is often the system itself. It can work for some exceptional people. These people were likely to succeed in other venues anyway. The problem is that is does not work for the majority of people.
The bigger problem, is that for many many years, some uplines have lived high on the hog off of the dedicated tool purchases of their downline. All the while, quesitonable or bad advice was given to the faithful downline. Advice such as quitting a job to attend a function, skipping financial obligations such as the rent or electric bills to buy more tools. One upline even said your family can skip a meal because the standing order may contain the one thing you needed to hear to make your business grow. I have personally seen couples lose their homes and go bankrupt because they followed upline advice. Upline to "has their best interest at heart". Granted, the couple has some culpability in these decisions, but uplines who give this advice seem to get a pass.
Where is the accountability? Some of these uplines who give and gave bad advice, are still active today, and some are still giving bad advice to their downlines. Advice that profits upline and drains downline. Even with valid complaints, it appears that many uplines avoid any accountability. For some, perhaps there is poetic justice, such as diamonds having their homes foreclosed. But as many uplines have nobody to hold them accountable, do you really want to do business with these folks? Would you invest your retirement money with a broker who could not be held accountable? Would you have your car repaired by a shop whose mechanics could not be held accountable? I believe the answer is not to these questions, yet many people are asked to trust and follow the advice of an upline who is not held accountable for their advice.
The system is credited for the few successes that are visible, but the individual is held accountable for any shortcomings or failures. IBOs, I encourage you to hold your upline leaders accountable for the advice they give you. If they won't answer tough questions or take responsibility, then one should wonder why the upline should be given your trust.
Monday, August 13, 2018
Friday, August 10, 2018
Your Job Is A Pyramid?
One of ths things I take issue with is how Amway uplines will create an us versus them mentality in the business. Thus friends and family who care about you suddenly become "negative" and association with them should be limited or cut off completely. In some cases, people are discouraged from excellence in their jobs or professions because it takes the focus off of their Amway business. What I was told was to do my job, but my radar should always be on for new prospects. Some cross line IBOs turned down promotions at work because they did not want to have to work longer hours or take the focus off of their Amway businesses.
In some cases, the speaker at open meetings or functions will put down people's jobs. A commonly used acronym was J-O-B = "Just Over Broke". Some leaders also would say that my job was a pyramid because you will never earn more than the boss. A completely ridiculous comparison because someone's job has no relationship with how people view the Amway business (i.e. an Amway pyramid) and in a job, every employee gets paid and has a net gain at the end of the month. Not true in Amway. If IBOs only use KATE for example, an IBO at 100 PV or less will already be at a loss, and that is not considering any other expenses that IBO may have. And while a job may have a hierarchy, or chain of command, the business owner and CEO or manager earns their salary from customers, not directly from the pockets of their employees.
Some uplines will laugh about people's jobs, stating that they wake up at the "crack of noon". What these same uplines may not tell you is that they wake up at noon because they are up at 3:00 in the morning doing nite owls for their groups and looking for recruits. These same uplines possibly can't do much with their downlines since their downlines mostly tend to have 9-5 jobs. An Amway diamond still has a job, but they work the graveyard shift because the mainstream world works during the day. The part about waking up at the crack of noon is because your upline diamond has to sleep in since he's working the overnight shift.
So if you are of the opinion that nobody should criticize the Amway opportunity or IBO behavior, maybe uplines and IBOs should not criticize family and friends who disagree with or are not interested in the Amway opportunity. And maybe the same uplines and IBOs should not criticize people who choose to work jobs. Don't most IBOs rely on their jobs? More than likely their Amway income is not sufficient to even pay for their Amway business related expenses, let alone anything else. It is most often someone's job that winds up supporting their Amway business, which is truly ironic.
In some cases, the speaker at open meetings or functions will put down people's jobs. A commonly used acronym was J-O-B = "Just Over Broke". Some leaders also would say that my job was a pyramid because you will never earn more than the boss. A completely ridiculous comparison because someone's job has no relationship with how people view the Amway business (i.e. an Amway pyramid) and in a job, every employee gets paid and has a net gain at the end of the month. Not true in Amway. If IBOs only use KATE for example, an IBO at 100 PV or less will already be at a loss, and that is not considering any other expenses that IBO may have. And while a job may have a hierarchy, or chain of command, the business owner and CEO or manager earns their salary from customers, not directly from the pockets of their employees.
Some uplines will laugh about people's jobs, stating that they wake up at the "crack of noon". What these same uplines may not tell you is that they wake up at noon because they are up at 3:00 in the morning doing nite owls for their groups and looking for recruits. These same uplines possibly can't do much with their downlines since their downlines mostly tend to have 9-5 jobs. An Amway diamond still has a job, but they work the graveyard shift because the mainstream world works during the day. The part about waking up at the crack of noon is because your upline diamond has to sleep in since he's working the overnight shift.
So if you are of the opinion that nobody should criticize the Amway opportunity or IBO behavior, maybe uplines and IBOs should not criticize family and friends who disagree with or are not interested in the Amway opportunity. And maybe the same uplines and IBOs should not criticize people who choose to work jobs. Don't most IBOs rely on their jobs? More than likely their Amway income is not sufficient to even pay for their Amway business related expenses, let alone anything else. It is most often someone's job that winds up supporting their Amway business, which is truly ironic.
Thursday, August 9, 2018
Living On Amway Island?
Imagine an a city or island with 100 adult residents. One guy gets sponsored into Amway from a cousin in another area off the island. Well, the island residents are a pretty tight knit group so the one IBO immediately sponsors his six best friends and eventually, all 100 island residents. They are all dead serious about the Amway business so they all work hard, but because everyone is an IBO, they can only self consume 100 PV each. Thus the 100 IBOs move 10,000 PV each month. The group as a whole generates about 30,000 BV and the group receives $7500 in bonus money from Amway. Of course, the first IBO sponsored is now a platinum receiving most of that money with the rest of the group receiving smaller bonuses.
Being serious IBOs, they all get standing order, books of the month, and travel by air to functions. They pay on average about $250 a month for their Amway training/tools. Thus the group pays about $25,000 a month for the training that will one day allow them to retire and quit their jobs. The island community is losing a net of $17,500 ($25,0000 in expenses minus the $7500 in income generated from Amway) from their local economy each month. However, there is one resident IBO who is making a nice income urging everyone one. Let's evaluate the group.
The platinum IBO is making a nice income and will also receive a $20,000 bonus at the end of the year. His 6 downline friends make just about enough to break even (approximately 1000 PV) or lose a little. The rest of the residents have lost collectively, over $200,000 ($17,500 a month). The guy who owned the local grocery store went out of business and all the entertainment related business closed up because the residents had no disposable income to spend money on anything except for Amway related activities. Eventually they all quit, including the platinum because once his group quit, he too, began to lose money.
Now Amway defenders will cry that this could never happen, but it shows that even if you could get everyone in the US to join, this scenario is what would more than likely, happen. I believe the Amway name and reputation is for the most part, saturated in the US. Nearly everyone will have heard the Amway name and/or will know someone who had a brush with Amway. Because of the tool peddlers such as WWDB, BWW, or Network 21, there are likely millions of people in the US who ended up with a bad experience, perhaps tricked into attending a meeting, or lied to about something related to Amway.
While this story is fictional, it is what I believe would happen if there was a city/island where everyone joined the business. It is what happens today. Few people benefit at the expense of their downline. And as usual, it is the tools that drive people to lose money - on Amway island, or anywhere else.
Being serious IBOs, they all get standing order, books of the month, and travel by air to functions. They pay on average about $250 a month for their Amway training/tools. Thus the group pays about $25,000 a month for the training that will one day allow them to retire and quit their jobs. The island community is losing a net of $17,500 ($25,0000 in expenses minus the $7500 in income generated from Amway) from their local economy each month. However, there is one resident IBO who is making a nice income urging everyone one. Let's evaluate the group.
The platinum IBO is making a nice income and will also receive a $20,000 bonus at the end of the year. His 6 downline friends make just about enough to break even (approximately 1000 PV) or lose a little. The rest of the residents have lost collectively, over $200,000 ($17,500 a month). The guy who owned the local grocery store went out of business and all the entertainment related business closed up because the residents had no disposable income to spend money on anything except for Amway related activities. Eventually they all quit, including the platinum because once his group quit, he too, began to lose money.
Now Amway defenders will cry that this could never happen, but it shows that even if you could get everyone in the US to join, this scenario is what would more than likely, happen. I believe the Amway name and reputation is for the most part, saturated in the US. Nearly everyone will have heard the Amway name and/or will know someone who had a brush with Amway. Because of the tool peddlers such as WWDB, BWW, or Network 21, there are likely millions of people in the US who ended up with a bad experience, perhaps tricked into attending a meeting, or lied to about something related to Amway.
While this story is fictional, it is what I believe would happen if there was a city/island where everyone joined the business. It is what happens today. Few people benefit at the expense of their downline. And as usual, it is the tools that drive people to lose money - on Amway island, or anywhere else.
Tuesday, August 7, 2018
Negative Cash Flow?
One of the things I am hearing about right now by Amway supporters is the concept that Amway pays you to shop there. The problem with this statement is that many IBOs see this rebate but do not calculate the fact that you can still have a better bottom line simply by purchasing a product elsewhere. For example, if WalMart started some kind of cash rebate program, would you quit Amway and shop at WalMart?
Then when an Amway supporter is cornered with this information, they will switch gears and start to defend quality versus price. It's all very predictable.
Honest question for IBOs. Why do you use KATE instead of the Amway voicemail system? Amway pays you to shop there, your upline profits from and does not pay you to use KATE.
One of the biggest problems with especially new IBOs is they ignore negative cashflow. And I cannot really blame them. They are ususally sponsored by someone they trust and they are often taught to ignore facts or taught that they are investing in their business, just like a real business, even though when recruited, they are told little or ZERO risk. Thus an IBO who intends to make a profit will generally get set up with a website and some other materials. While the cost may not be exorbitant, these few materials already exceed a new IBO's income unless they actully go out and sell some goods or are able to sponsor downline who sell and buy products. And the more dedicated an IBO is, the greater the chance is that the IBO's negative cashflow will be larger. When you start to add in standing order and functions, the cashflow gets more and more negative and there are many testimonies of massive debts built up by IBOs in a few years or less.
What's ironic is that many IBOs incur these debts at the advice of their upline, or if you will, "mentors". Many uplines will teach IBOs to "never quit". It is my guess that uplines will make blanket statements like never quit without knowing an IBOs circumstance. Just as a statement like you "need" to attend a certain certain function, or you need standing order. No assessment of an IBO's business or personal circumstances. It appears that uplines are simply interested in making a sale for their BSM business. You may ask why should a diamond assess a downline's business before issuing these statements. I ask why should downline call them "mentors". In the meantime these downline suffer negative cashflow from their Amway business. Ironically, some upline teaches that "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Attending functions and listening to standing orders while losing money each month is that same insanity.
Then when an Amway supporter is cornered with this information, they will switch gears and start to defend quality versus price. It's all very predictable.
Honest question for IBOs. Why do you use KATE instead of the Amway voicemail system? Amway pays you to shop there, your upline profits from and does not pay you to use KATE.
One of the biggest problems with especially new IBOs is they ignore negative cashflow. And I cannot really blame them. They are ususally sponsored by someone they trust and they are often taught to ignore facts or taught that they are investing in their business, just like a real business, even though when recruited, they are told little or ZERO risk. Thus an IBO who intends to make a profit will generally get set up with a website and some other materials. While the cost may not be exorbitant, these few materials already exceed a new IBO's income unless they actully go out and sell some goods or are able to sponsor downline who sell and buy products. And the more dedicated an IBO is, the greater the chance is that the IBO's negative cashflow will be larger. When you start to add in standing order and functions, the cashflow gets more and more negative and there are many testimonies of massive debts built up by IBOs in a few years or less.
What's ironic is that many IBOs incur these debts at the advice of their upline, or if you will, "mentors". Many uplines will teach IBOs to "never quit". It is my guess that uplines will make blanket statements like never quit without knowing an IBOs circumstance. Just as a statement like you "need" to attend a certain certain function, or you need standing order. No assessment of an IBO's business or personal circumstances. It appears that uplines are simply interested in making a sale for their BSM business. You may ask why should a diamond assess a downline's business before issuing these statements. I ask why should downline call them "mentors". In the meantime these downline suffer negative cashflow from their Amway business. Ironically, some upline teaches that "insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". Attending functions and listening to standing orders while losing money each month is that same insanity.
Monday, August 6, 2018
The Psychology Used By Amway Leaders?
The Psychology Behind The Presentation
I’m not sure whether this plan was carefully crafted out or whether it just evolved, but the way some uplines show the plan is cleverly designed to suck people into their systems. If you aren’t aware or careful, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of the presentation. The presentation is full of deception and I will try to point out these items in my analysis.
The speaker may talk about how he once thought he was “doing okay” in life. That he was making a living and able to meet his financial obligations. But he thought there might be more. One day he saw the plan and it changed his life. He did not realize he had gotten into a rut of going to work and going home every day and looking forward to his 2 weeks off each year. (This is relatable for many) That time and money are so important in life. Control of time and money is the key to success. Many people have lots of money but work all day and nite. Or people have time but are broke and can’t do much. The speaker might mention dreams or goals such as having an extra $500 a month or more. What would you do for an extra $500 a month. What about an extra $50,000 a year? Wouldn’t it be nice to have the wife stay home with the kids instead of leaving the family to go to work? Like the “Leave it to Beaver” days? (This gets the women excited)
The speaker will likely mention something about the economy and how prices always go up. The speaker may mention the 4 “I’s” that suck money out of your paycheck. The four I’s are Interest, Income Tax, Insurance and Inflation. The speaker may talk about how the government will take their cut and so on until you get your “net”. The speaker may mention how so many Americans are dead or broke by age 65, and that social security will collapse. (This instills fear in many people).
The speaker might also go on to mention how so many marriages are falling apart in the US because of financial stress. That couples work so hard that they have no family time and it hurts marriages. That people work so many hours these days that they are married to their desks. The “manager” of the office is the first one there and the last one to go home. That despite all of this work and effort, people are falling into debt. Credit cards maxed out, loans, trying to keep up with the Joneses. (Many people can relate to this)
But now, because he was looking for opportunity/open minded one day, he saw an opportunity. This opportunity changed his life and can do the same for you! The speaker now wakes up at the crack of noon. His wife stays home with him and the kids. They take nice vacations and they do what they want when they want. (Of course, who doesn’t? But is this true?) The opportunity takes advantage of the internet and allows you to leverage your time and money so that you can create a residual walk away income. (But nobody walks away do they?)
This is approximately the point in the presentation where they mention “Amway” At this point, the speaker will defend Amway, stating that if you can make money, does it matter.? If you can save money, does it matter? The speaker may go into the product line and mention partner stores and will likely show a 6-4-2 plan or a variation of it. In every case, they will show a best case scenario, not what is likely. Many prospects will leave thinking “all I need is six”. They don’t understand how unlikely it is to sponsor six platinums and there is no mention of the retention rates, the income most IBOs can expect, and firm questions will be deflected to the prospect’s inviter. The speaker may also discourage you from speaking to friends and family as they may have a bad experience but the diamond is successful and knows more about Amway than your family and friends.
Joe’s commentary: So the speaker becomes very relatable from the start. His situation in life will be like many in the audience. He will talk about doing okay,. But wanting more or looking for more. He talks about debts and many in the audience will also relate. They get people to think about dream cars or vacations. He talks about walk away income, but doesn’t mention that very very few ever make significant money and apparently, not many actually walk away either. They say you will make money and save money by doing the business. It’s hard to argue against that,.except most people will not make money or save money. In fact most people, if they participate fully or partially in the training system, they will lose money. For the dedicated IBOs, many of them LOSE LOTS OF MONEY. The plan is crafted out to sound sensible and relatable, but many IBOs will give it a try and shortly after, will realize that the system doesn’t work, that the reputation of Amway IBOs is soiled and sponsoring people or even getting people to see the plan is a barrier that most people simply cannot overcome. At least if you know what’s going on, you may be able to avoid the trap.
I’m not sure whether this plan was carefully crafted out or whether it just evolved, but the way some uplines show the plan is cleverly designed to suck people into their systems. If you aren’t aware or careful, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of the presentation. The presentation is full of deception and I will try to point out these items in my analysis.
The speaker may talk about how he once thought he was “doing okay” in life. That he was making a living and able to meet his financial obligations. But he thought there might be more. One day he saw the plan and it changed his life. He did not realize he had gotten into a rut of going to work and going home every day and looking forward to his 2 weeks off each year. (This is relatable for many) That time and money are so important in life. Control of time and money is the key to success. Many people have lots of money but work all day and nite. Or people have time but are broke and can’t do much. The speaker might mention dreams or goals such as having an extra $500 a month or more. What would you do for an extra $500 a month. What about an extra $50,000 a year? Wouldn’t it be nice to have the wife stay home with the kids instead of leaving the family to go to work? Like the “Leave it to Beaver” days? (This gets the women excited)
The speaker will likely mention something about the economy and how prices always go up. The speaker may mention the 4 “I’s” that suck money out of your paycheck. The four I’s are Interest, Income Tax, Insurance and Inflation. The speaker may talk about how the government will take their cut and so on until you get your “net”. The speaker may mention how so many Americans are dead or broke by age 65, and that social security will collapse. (This instills fear in many people).
The speaker might also go on to mention how so many marriages are falling apart in the US because of financial stress. That couples work so hard that they have no family time and it hurts marriages. That people work so many hours these days that they are married to their desks. The “manager” of the office is the first one there and the last one to go home. That despite all of this work and effort, people are falling into debt. Credit cards maxed out, loans, trying to keep up with the Joneses. (Many people can relate to this)
But now, because he was looking for opportunity/open minded one day, he saw an opportunity. This opportunity changed his life and can do the same for you! The speaker now wakes up at the crack of noon. His wife stays home with him and the kids. They take nice vacations and they do what they want when they want. (Of course, who doesn’t? But is this true?) The opportunity takes advantage of the internet and allows you to leverage your time and money so that you can create a residual walk away income. (But nobody walks away do they?)
This is approximately the point in the presentation where they mention “Amway” At this point, the speaker will defend Amway, stating that if you can make money, does it matter.? If you can save money, does it matter? The speaker may go into the product line and mention partner stores and will likely show a 6-4-2 plan or a variation of it. In every case, they will show a best case scenario, not what is likely. Many prospects will leave thinking “all I need is six”. They don’t understand how unlikely it is to sponsor six platinums and there is no mention of the retention rates, the income most IBOs can expect, and firm questions will be deflected to the prospect’s inviter. The speaker may also discourage you from speaking to friends and family as they may have a bad experience but the diamond is successful and knows more about Amway than your family and friends.
Joe’s commentary: So the speaker becomes very relatable from the start. His situation in life will be like many in the audience. He will talk about doing okay,. But wanting more or looking for more. He talks about debts and many in the audience will also relate. They get people to think about dream cars or vacations. He talks about walk away income, but doesn’t mention that very very few ever make significant money and apparently, not many actually walk away either. They say you will make money and save money by doing the business. It’s hard to argue against that,.except most people will not make money or save money. In fact most people, if they participate fully or partially in the training system, they will lose money. For the dedicated IBOs, many of them LOSE LOTS OF MONEY. The plan is crafted out to sound sensible and relatable, but many IBOs will give it a try and shortly after, will realize that the system doesn’t work, that the reputation of Amway IBOs is soiled and sponsoring people or even getting people to see the plan is a barrier that most people simply cannot overcome. At least if you know what’s going on, you may be able to avoid the trap.
Thursday, August 2, 2018
Amway And Accountability?
Part of what Joecool perceives as the problem with the Amway opportunity is the utter lack of accountability of some upline leaders. They may tell you to trust them, to submit to them and simply copy or duplicate what they have done, and they imply that you will get the same results. Possibly millions of downlines over the years have put in blood sweat and tears into the business only to suffer massive losses following the system. Upline will take credit for meager success, but place the blame on the downline when success is not there. Upline will claim that they either did not try hard enough, were not teachable enough, or they didn't put in enough time and effort. Despite a shockingly low success rate of system IBOs, nobody seems to fault the system as being flawed. And nobody seems to question whether upline is at fault. I believe it's obvious that the system and the upline advice is severely flawed.
In my observations, I would say that many financial systems are similar. Whether it be BWW, N21, WWDB, real estate gurus or other systems, the success rate is extremely low. Many systems that advertise on television will have a disclaimer that a success testimony is a rare or unique experience. I believe it is similar to the systems in Amway. Dedication or continued spending on the system is not the problem. The problem is often the system itself. It can work for some exceptional people. These people were likely to succeed in other venues anyway. The problem is that is does not work for the majority of people. People who succeed in Amway likely succeed in spite of the system and not because of it.
The bigger problem, is that for many many years, some uplines have lived high on the hog off of the dedicated tool purchases of their downline. All the while, quesitonable or bad advice was given to the faithful downline. Advice such as quitting a job to attend a function, skipping financial obligations such as the rent or electric bills to buy more tools. One upline even said your family can skip a meal because the standing order may contain the one thing you needed to hear to make your business grow. I have personally seen couples lose their homes and go bankrupt because they followed upline advice. Upline to "has their best interest at heart". Granted, the couple has some culpability in these decisions, but uplines who give this advice seem to get a pass.
Where is the accountability? Some of these uplines who give and gave bad advice, are still active today, and some are still giving bad advice to their downlines. Advice that profits upline and drains downline. Even with valid complaints, it appears that many uplines avoid any accountability. For some, perhaps there is poetic justice, such as diamonds having their homes foreclosed. But as many uplines have nobody to hold them accountable, do you really want to do business with these folks? Would you invest your retirement money with a broker who could not be held accountable? Would you have your car repaired by a shop whose mechanics could not be held accountable? I believe the answer is not to these questions, yet many people are asked to trust and follow the advice of an upline who is not held accountable for their advice.
The system is credited for the few successes that are visible, but the individual is held accountable for any shortcomings or failures. IBOs, I encourage you to hold your upline leaders accountable for the advice they give you. If they won't answer tough questions or take responsibility, then one should wonder why the upline should be given your trust.
In my observations, I would say that many financial systems are similar. Whether it be BWW, N21, WWDB, real estate gurus or other systems, the success rate is extremely low. Many systems that advertise on television will have a disclaimer that a success testimony is a rare or unique experience. I believe it is similar to the systems in Amway. Dedication or continued spending on the system is not the problem. The problem is often the system itself. It can work for some exceptional people. These people were likely to succeed in other venues anyway. The problem is that is does not work for the majority of people. People who succeed in Amway likely succeed in spite of the system and not because of it.
The bigger problem, is that for many many years, some uplines have lived high on the hog off of the dedicated tool purchases of their downline. All the while, quesitonable or bad advice was given to the faithful downline. Advice such as quitting a job to attend a function, skipping financial obligations such as the rent or electric bills to buy more tools. One upline even said your family can skip a meal because the standing order may contain the one thing you needed to hear to make your business grow. I have personally seen couples lose their homes and go bankrupt because they followed upline advice. Upline to "has their best interest at heart". Granted, the couple has some culpability in these decisions, but uplines who give this advice seem to get a pass.
Where is the accountability? Some of these uplines who give and gave bad advice, are still active today, and some are still giving bad advice to their downlines. Advice that profits upline and drains downline. Even with valid complaints, it appears that many uplines avoid any accountability. For some, perhaps there is poetic justice, such as diamonds having their homes foreclosed. But as many uplines have nobody to hold them accountable, do you really want to do business with these folks? Would you invest your retirement money with a broker who could not be held accountable? Would you have your car repaired by a shop whose mechanics could not be held accountable? I believe the answer is not to these questions, yet many people are asked to trust and follow the advice of an upline who is not held accountable for their advice.
The system is credited for the few successes that are visible, but the individual is held accountable for any shortcomings or failures. IBOs, I encourage you to hold your upline leaders accountable for the advice they give you. If they won't answer tough questions or take responsibility, then one should wonder why the upline should be given your trust.
Wednesday, August 1, 2018
My Debate With An Amway Drone
I apologize for the length of this post but it's actually quite humorous and I will also post the link in case you wish to follow along or perhaps leave your own comments. The classic Amway defense is used here, including unsubstantiated income and lifestyle claims. He also calls me a liar but never identifies what I'm supposedly lying about. Enjoy!
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/penn-and-tellers-verdic-on-mlms-bs/#comment-48347
Malachy:
“, FAILED system”?? Yeah. Right. 8 billion annually no sticks no dent. 60 merchant partners and double digits growth in North America these past 2 years.
(Oh yeah. And #1 selling nutritional supplier world wide. Aha. )
Joecool
8 billion annually. Down more than 25% from 2013 when Amway did 11.8 billion. No debt? How do you know Amway has no debt? That’s an old talking point that was proven wrong in the past if you know how to use google. And #1 selling nutritional supplier worldwide is a HUGE lie.
The #1 selling nutritional supplier in the world is Nestle. In he Americas alone they exceed 40 billion. You are just repeating lies that uplines tells without verifying for yourself. More than likely you are repeating income claim lies from upline as well.
Nestle: https://www.nestle.com/investors/annual-report
Malachy:
Nobody went black or lost their homes BECAUSE OF AMWAY. (Gee by your logic maybe Greg (Duncan) couldn’t afford the tapes books & travel to all those functions?
Dude Matt (Tsuruda)was making $90,000 a month as an EDC.
He probably makes 4-5 times that now
Joecool
It’s not how much you make, but what you do with it. $40K per month and (Greg Duncan) winds up bankrupt?
Malachy:
FYI there are 3500 college players who graduate or declare for the draft before they graduate. Know how many are drafted in the entire NFL? 254. That means there’s only a 7% chance of getting drafted
Then there’s several walk ons who are undrafted who show up to training camp. Then you have OTA, mono camp, training camp, and preseason in which 90 or so men all hope to make the roster (of which there are really less than 50 possible openings in a maximum 53 man roster (a half a dozen maybe ten or so of which are already taken by the superstars like Tom Brady or Beckam or Gronk.
So it’s about a 3% chance of even MAKING a roster, and that doesn’t guarantee the big money but only minimum scale if you’re on the practice squad.
Then there’s the chance of getting injured ending a season (or a carreer)
Average length of an NFL carreer? Less than 7 years.
And how much money do you make after you leave, quit, get cut, or injured out of the NFL?
Zero (except maybe some pension depending on how long you played & what money you made. )
Tracey Eaton had to play a preseason game with a flu & high fever, just to prove himself make the team. At Arizona.
Know what happened after he left the NFL with $300,000 on the bank & had to try & make it as a stock broker?
He ended up $400,000 in debt & had to sell his house!
Thank God Wolgamott came along & he asked Wolgamott how he managed to sleep in every day & be rich.
Now they are free as diamonds & have a beautiful high rise condo in Seattle and paid Cash for a second home on the river.
Eaton makes more money than he ever made in the NFL & is not subject to injuries, age, or roster cuts
Yeah we know all about the odds.
(Then there’s also Superbowl champion Tim Foley in Miami, Hal Greer from the NBA and numerous other world class championship athletes who make their living from amway or endorse the nutrilite Brand. (see Kurt Warner- another walk on who had what it takes in character & went from walk on back up quarterback to Superbowl champion. Yeah. He believes in nutrilite & amway)
Not everybody who plays the game is a winner or a champion. Only those who got what it takes (which obviously you didn’t!)
Joecool
July 30, 2018 10:00 am
7% is a whole lot more success than Amway IBOs. A platinum is allegedly where you start to break even more make a small profit, depending on your commitment to the system. A platinum is already in the top fraction of 1% of IBOs. What serious business owner prospect would want to join and opportunity where the likelihood of success is so low?
Arena football players know the deal before they sign up. They are signing up because someone told them about residual income for life if they play arena football.
Again, how do you know what Tracy Eaton makes? Did you show you his financials? You have no idea but you keep making those kinds of claims. All you are saying is that he lacks integrity and is able to sell people on lies to make his living. 2-5 years, walking the beaches is a lie. One that has serious consequences for many who get involved.
Malachy:
woww. Once again you demonstrated a difficulty understanding (or paying attention to) what people actually say.
If 7 % get drafted that doesn’t necessarily mean they will make the roster by end of preseason and if they do make the roster half of them will NEVER make a million a year
Many have ENDED up broke after being retired (average carreer is less than 7 years and they don’t pay you or even guarantee your salary if you’re not playing. Many get injured and most contracts have team friendly incentives that only pay based on how many snaps you play in the year.)
Tracey Eaton lasted a handful of years after busting his @$$ to make the team during preseason only to end up broke & having to sell his house after retirement. None of hos NFL income was secure or willable to his children
Now he makes more than he did in the NFL and it’s all willable to his children and most of it is passive ongoing income streams.
He paid Cash for his second home. (did you?
Joecool
I understand completely. But anyone who gets drafted receives at least a signing bonus of about $100k or more, even if they fail to make the team.
Most Amway IBOs make nothing and if they attend functions, almost all of them LOSE MONEY.
Tracy Eaton can tell you he paid cash for his home. I paid cash for my home. See how that works? Talk is cheap. Greg Duncan also said she paid cash for his homes. Then we see foreclosures. Guess what? Homes that are paid for can’t get foreclosed.
“None of his NFL income was secure or will-able to his children” Total bullshit. All of his guaranteed income could have been secured and will-able to his children.
You know why Amway diamonds might quit or resign but they never “walk away? They have to keep working the business. Most Amway IBOs do little or nothing and quit. If you stop building your Amway business, people will continue to do little or nothing and quit. You cannot build a sustainable income where the attrition rate is so high unless you are constantly working it. The never quit that upline teaches applies to the upline as well. If they quit, their business will fall apart faster than a cheap Amway suit.
Malachy:
Name one example of an NFL contract which says they continue to get their bloated salary after they’re no longer able to play?
No such thing! It’s all based 100% on their own ability.
Amway isn’t based on ability. It’s based off an asset which continues to generate revenue and therefore earnings for you or your beneficiaries
Ever hear of an “integrated Diamond”?
(Oh. I’m sorry. So now Georgia Lee (Puryear) no longer gets any income since Ron died? )
Better tell Jim to go get a job ha.
Joecool
So why don”t diamonds walk away and retire? Because their business will crumble apart once they stop working. In Amway, you need the ability to recruit and lie to recruits so they will sign up and buy Amway stuff and tools and functions.
I don’t know. Georgia Lee didn’t show me (or you) her financials so I don’t (and you don’t) know what or if she’s still making money from Amway.
You do know that Amway diamonds invest in other things besides Amway right?
Malachy:
I’ve never been lied to by anyone in the Amway company or WWDb. You on the other hand lie all the time & make up stuff to support your excuses why you quit. LOSERS do that & we don’t do that in our family.
Joecool:
What have I lied about? I share my personal experience. Whether you like it or not is another story but these are not lies.
You make up all kinds of stuff. You quote income from people you don’t know. You pretend to know how much income and expenses the diamonds have. The truth is you don’t know.
You bought into the lie that buying from yourself can turn into profits.
You still haven’t answered why not a single diamond walked away to enjoy residual income. Instead, they are on the job until they pass away. That’s not freedom.
https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/penn-and-tellers-verdic-on-mlms-bs/#comment-48347
Malachy:
“, FAILED system”?? Yeah. Right. 8 billion annually no sticks no dent. 60 merchant partners and double digits growth in North America these past 2 years.
(Oh yeah. And #1 selling nutritional supplier world wide. Aha. )
Joecool
8 billion annually. Down more than 25% from 2013 when Amway did 11.8 billion. No debt? How do you know Amway has no debt? That’s an old talking point that was proven wrong in the past if you know how to use google. And #1 selling nutritional supplier worldwide is a HUGE lie.
The #1 selling nutritional supplier in the world is Nestle. In he Americas alone they exceed 40 billion. You are just repeating lies that uplines tells without verifying for yourself. More than likely you are repeating income claim lies from upline as well.
Nestle: https://www.nestle.com/investors/annual-report
Malachy:
Nobody went black or lost their homes BECAUSE OF AMWAY. (Gee by your logic maybe Greg (Duncan) couldn’t afford the tapes books & travel to all those functions?
Dude Matt (Tsuruda)was making $90,000 a month as an EDC.
He probably makes 4-5 times that now
Joecool
It’s not how much you make, but what you do with it. $40K per month and (Greg Duncan) winds up bankrupt?
Malachy:
FYI there are 3500 college players who graduate or declare for the draft before they graduate. Know how many are drafted in the entire NFL? 254. That means there’s only a 7% chance of getting drafted
Then there’s several walk ons who are undrafted who show up to training camp. Then you have OTA, mono camp, training camp, and preseason in which 90 or so men all hope to make the roster (of which there are really less than 50 possible openings in a maximum 53 man roster (a half a dozen maybe ten or so of which are already taken by the superstars like Tom Brady or Beckam or Gronk.
So it’s about a 3% chance of even MAKING a roster, and that doesn’t guarantee the big money but only minimum scale if you’re on the practice squad.
Then there’s the chance of getting injured ending a season (or a carreer)
Average length of an NFL carreer? Less than 7 years.
And how much money do you make after you leave, quit, get cut, or injured out of the NFL?
Zero (except maybe some pension depending on how long you played & what money you made. )
Tracey Eaton had to play a preseason game with a flu & high fever, just to prove himself make the team. At Arizona.
Know what happened after he left the NFL with $300,000 on the bank & had to try & make it as a stock broker?
He ended up $400,000 in debt & had to sell his house!
Thank God Wolgamott came along & he asked Wolgamott how he managed to sleep in every day & be rich.
Now they are free as diamonds & have a beautiful high rise condo in Seattle and paid Cash for a second home on the river.
Eaton makes more money than he ever made in the NFL & is not subject to injuries, age, or roster cuts
Yeah we know all about the odds.
(Then there’s also Superbowl champion Tim Foley in Miami, Hal Greer from the NBA and numerous other world class championship athletes who make their living from amway or endorse the nutrilite Brand. (see Kurt Warner- another walk on who had what it takes in character & went from walk on back up quarterback to Superbowl champion. Yeah. He believes in nutrilite & amway)
Not everybody who plays the game is a winner or a champion. Only those who got what it takes (which obviously you didn’t!)
Joecool
July 30, 2018 10:00 am
7% is a whole lot more success than Amway IBOs. A platinum is allegedly where you start to break even more make a small profit, depending on your commitment to the system. A platinum is already in the top fraction of 1% of IBOs. What serious business owner prospect would want to join and opportunity where the likelihood of success is so low?
Arena football players know the deal before they sign up. They are signing up because someone told them about residual income for life if they play arena football.
Again, how do you know what Tracy Eaton makes? Did you show you his financials? You have no idea but you keep making those kinds of claims. All you are saying is that he lacks integrity and is able to sell people on lies to make his living. 2-5 years, walking the beaches is a lie. One that has serious consequences for many who get involved.
Malachy:
woww. Once again you demonstrated a difficulty understanding (or paying attention to) what people actually say.
If 7 % get drafted that doesn’t necessarily mean they will make the roster by end of preseason and if they do make the roster half of them will NEVER make a million a year
Many have ENDED up broke after being retired (average carreer is less than 7 years and they don’t pay you or even guarantee your salary if you’re not playing. Many get injured and most contracts have team friendly incentives that only pay based on how many snaps you play in the year.)
Tracey Eaton lasted a handful of years after busting his @$$ to make the team during preseason only to end up broke & having to sell his house after retirement. None of hos NFL income was secure or willable to his children
Now he makes more than he did in the NFL and it’s all willable to his children and most of it is passive ongoing income streams.
He paid Cash for his second home. (did you?
Joecool
I understand completely. But anyone who gets drafted receives at least a signing bonus of about $100k or more, even if they fail to make the team.
Most Amway IBOs make nothing and if they attend functions, almost all of them LOSE MONEY.
Tracy Eaton can tell you he paid cash for his home. I paid cash for my home. See how that works? Talk is cheap. Greg Duncan also said she paid cash for his homes. Then we see foreclosures. Guess what? Homes that are paid for can’t get foreclosed.
“None of his NFL income was secure or will-able to his children” Total bullshit. All of his guaranteed income could have been secured and will-able to his children.
You know why Amway diamonds might quit or resign but they never “walk away? They have to keep working the business. Most Amway IBOs do little or nothing and quit. If you stop building your Amway business, people will continue to do little or nothing and quit. You cannot build a sustainable income where the attrition rate is so high unless you are constantly working it. The never quit that upline teaches applies to the upline as well. If they quit, their business will fall apart faster than a cheap Amway suit.
Malachy:
Name one example of an NFL contract which says they continue to get their bloated salary after they’re no longer able to play?
No such thing! It’s all based 100% on their own ability.
Amway isn’t based on ability. It’s based off an asset which continues to generate revenue and therefore earnings for you or your beneficiaries
Ever hear of an “integrated Diamond”?
(Oh. I’m sorry. So now Georgia Lee (Puryear) no longer gets any income since Ron died? )
Better tell Jim to go get a job ha.
Joecool
So why don”t diamonds walk away and retire? Because their business will crumble apart once they stop working. In Amway, you need the ability to recruit and lie to recruits so they will sign up and buy Amway stuff and tools and functions.
I don’t know. Georgia Lee didn’t show me (or you) her financials so I don’t (and you don’t) know what or if she’s still making money from Amway.
You do know that Amway diamonds invest in other things besides Amway right?
Malachy:
I’ve never been lied to by anyone in the Amway company or WWDb. You on the other hand lie all the time & make up stuff to support your excuses why you quit. LOSERS do that & we don’t do that in our family.
Joecool:
What have I lied about? I share my personal experience. Whether you like it or not is another story but these are not lies.
You make up all kinds of stuff. You quote income from people you don’t know. You pretend to know how much income and expenses the diamonds have. The truth is you don’t know.
You bought into the lie that buying from yourself can turn into profits.
You still haven’t answered why not a single diamond walked away to enjoy residual income. Instead, they are on the job until they pass away. That’s not freedom.
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