I was debating with (apparently) an Amway IBO last week. I had quoted the average income of an Amway IBO as $202 a month. I decided to verify this and when I visited Amway.com, I saw that the most recent update stated that the average income of "active" Amway IBOs is $183 a month. However, only 53% of IBOs are active. So if we were to count the true average income of all IBOs, that income would be under $100 a month. I might add that the average income also includes diamonds, emeralds and crown ambassadors. Imagine that, with all those Amway "gazillionaires", the average income is $183 a month.
But I will concede that averages can be misleading. My net worth would be multiple billions if you averaged my bet worth with Bill Gates. I believe that the median income, or the average minus the top and bottom 10%. If we were to do that, it is my belief that the average income would be under $20 a month. When you see the common 6-4-2 plan, or some other similar version, that lowest level is the majority and if these IBOs moved 100 PV, they would earn about $10 a month on average. The top IBOs would be disregarded along with the ones who did nothing.
Many Amway defenders will claim that they are different or that they will stick it out and succeed. And that's fine and dandy. I know that some people succeed in Amway and make decent money. But what is the likelihood of that happening for some prospect who joins today? Someone joining today has effective zero percent chance to succeed when rounding to the nearest whole number. The products are not priced competitively, and the Amway name has a damaged reputation in countries where Amway operates. If you can't recruit downline, you can never achieve the highest levels in Amway. People do try to succeed, that's why newbies are calling everyone they know to try and find people to see the plan.
But even if you can manage to show some plans and sponsor some downline, your chances us success are still close to zero because nearly half of all IBOs do nothing and quit. And the majority of IBOs never sponsor any downline. If you can't recruit downline and the products are overpriced, you have such a huge handicap that it's like trying to swim with lead weights tied to your body. You might swim for a while but the weight will eventually win and you'll sink. Same with a new IBO trying to build a business.
The magical goal is to achieve residual passive income. And that brings me to the main point. Residual passive income is like chasing the end of a rainbow. YOu can see it but never touch it. Or it's like Sasquatch (Bigfoot). Nearly everyone has heard about it. Allegedly some people have seen and claimed to have encountered the creature, but there is zero bonafide evidence that they really exist, just like an Amway diamond who built the business, walked away and is living off residual passive income from Amway. Over the years, not one single IBO or Amway defender has been able to name and substantiate a single IBO who's achieved this. I"m still waiting, but not holding my breath.
18 comments:
Joe you continue to ask tough questions of Amway and demand to see financial statements proving diamond income is legitimate. For you to have credibility could you please publish financial statements and the structure of your business when you were 4000pv and upside down due to Amway financial teachings and practices? I would like to follow character and while we have heard alot of rhetoric we haven't seen evidence either way.
Actually, I don't demand to see diamond income. Greg Duncan's bankruptcy cleared all of that up. A triple diamond made just over $40,000 a month from Amway and another just over $40,000 from the tools. He also did not pay for homes in cash as he had homes foreclosed. So it a triple diamond makes just over half a million from Amway, I know that a diamond makes far less.
Amway publishes that a Q12 diamond makes around $500,000 a year or more but a Q12 diamond is the exception, not the rule. Last I saw, an average diamond, according to Amay, made about $150,000. While that's a good income, after.taxes and business expenses, you're not living a life of luxury and excess that diamonds show off.
As to my 4000 PV business, I posted my business income and expenses on this blog before and basically for your benefit, I made about $1000 a month but after busness expenses, I just about broke even. And I did mention that I live in Hawaii and so "major" functions such as Familiy Reunion or FED costed much more because I had to fly from Hawaii ro the West Coast to attend.
I have always been open about my experience in Amway, although I don't have actual receipt to prove my statements anymore. But nobody has contested the the numbers I'veposted about my business and prospective expenses.
If you want to follow character, I suggest you abandon Amway/WWDB leaders who say they pay for everything in cash and are proven wrong, or those who claim Amway ad WWDB saves marriages and end up getting divorced. I can name them if you doubt me.
Cassaundra Wolf, don't get stuck on Joecool's credentials. You can assume he has none if you think that will make the problem go away. But still the problem remains, which part of Amway's reported 183p/m gross for active IBOs, do you think, is hiding the good news? It remains a woefully pathetic number. To think (you mention financial statements) the net must come out of that! Every time I hear that, I shake my head again in disbelief.
"Haven't seen evidence either way". Honestly?? I think if you ignore Amway's own number of 183 we can safely assume you're not the type of person who would let evidence bother you too much. What would make the average look better? What would inflate to a number to something one could live off? Take away top and bottom 10% as Joe suggests? Take away 20%? Median? Modus?
Assuming you arrive at a good metric that tells a more fair story..Why doesn't Amway publish that number if it would shut up Joecool and all the rest? Or is there no need because Amway's reputation is excellent?
"Cassaundra Wolf" has come here before, asking the same sort of question about Joe Cool's finances while in Amway. He has posted the basic outlines of his income during his Amway stint numerous times at this blog. His openness and honesty about how much he made (and how much more he lost) are unimpeachable.
"Cassaundra" is merely trying to muddy the waters. She pretends to be some kind of neutral, unbiased, truth-seeking observer who wants to be fair to everyone.
It's a pose.
"Cassaundra" is simply trying to cast doubt upon Joe's credibility by raising the same bogus question about his experience in Amway that she raised in previous posts. She has no interest in the truth or in facts. She just wants to create a fog of doubt in the minds of readers of this blog. Joe Cool (along with the many persons who have come here to comment on Amway's fraudulent practices) has presented endless facts and figures about the Amway scam, and about his own experiences when doing 4000 PV a month.
"Cassaundra" gives the game away when she says "I would like to follow character..." That's a surreptitious way to suggest that Joe Cool has a character problem. What evidence does she have for that insulting implication? Joe Cool has run this blog, without a penny of profit, for many years. He has worked hard and unselfishly to get the truth out about the rotten, stinking, financial fraud that is the Amway Corporation. And this snotty bitch suggests that he has no character?
Cassaundra, go screw yourself. And learn how to spell your first name correctly. It's Cassandra, honey.
Thank you for your comments and support. Yes, it is true that I have posted my Amway business parameters on this blog multiple times for those who are interested.
I've been told that I didn't build the business right, even though I had "eagle" parameters.
Basically, my gross profit at 4000 PV was about $1000 a month but because I was "loyal" and "teachable", two very important virtues in Amway, I did as advised and "reinvested" that into Amway and Amway tools, leaving me at about break even.
Everyone below my level lost money. Had I gone 7500 PV, I would still not make money because I would have had the expectation of then showing long distance plans requiring air travel, and having to attend other functions such as "Go Diamond Weekend" which would also require air travel.
I also stated that because I'm from Hawaii, my expenses were a bit higher than people who lived on the mainland.
I have certainly been much more open about my Amway business than any visitor to this blog.
Not to be critical but this is kind of where I'm having problems with your approach. You make generalized statements but do not post any hard fact. I can say all day long that Amazon business owners do not make any money running an Amazon business and I can say that I run an Amazon business and was broke at the end of the day. I can say that Amazon businesses destroyed marriages because I knew people who owned them that ended up getting divorced . I can claim that my argument is legitimate and that an Amazon business owners are fools because they have no hard fact to prove that you can be successful as an Amazon business owner. But if I am unwilling to post physical factual proof that I did everything it took to make my Amazon business successful and still failed then how can my readers know for certain that I am doing more than posting my opinions? I am looking for functioning business models and doing research on them before I make investments. You make a lot of strong points and while your detractors post little more than statistics I have not seen you do anything else to be completely honest. I looked at the ABOB and from what I can tell how much money you make is less dependent on your total points and more dependent on balancing the structure through which those points flow. For example if you had 40 downline all at 100 points you would make more money than if you sponsored one person at 2500 points and another person at 1500 points. I know it is a little redundant for me to study the structures of how this thing works before I spend my time and energy but I don't wish to invest in another failed business system. So if you are willing to draw out your group, repost the financial statements, and prove that you were putting the five to 10 hours they're telling me this takes into your business then I think that would lay any of the arguments otherwise to rest. I have them responding by pointing out that they have 80 different Fortune 500 companies backing their credibility as well as a plus ratings with the Better Business Bureau. That's impressive but if I had someone with your story backed by evidence not opinions rhetoric or referrals to previous posts it would be much more valuable in my decision making.
As for the other random people who are being hateful because I asked for profit and loss statements and the structure of his business to prove that a business system isn't viable I'm curious what your personal stake is and why you feel the need to comment with childish hateful comments. Honestly making fun of how my given name is spelled?
Cassaundra,
I ran my Amway business 20 years ago. I don't have any "hard records" to post. My blog is to share my experiences.
I have outlined in great detail, the parameters of my former Amway business to the best of my recollection. If you don't believe me then we'll have to agree to disagree.
But conversely, we can still find diamonds talking about the great wealth they allegedly have, or showing off lifestyle pictures and slide shows. And not a single one of them will disclose the kind of information you are asking of me here.
I've seen first hand, the financial records of some diamonds who got into legal issues and had their financials made public. It wasn't as pretty as people are led to believe.
But I can tell you this. My story is consistent with what Amway diamonds teach, and you can do simple math looking at the Amway compensation chart and see that my story is in line with the potential earnings at the 4000 PV level where I was at. I had eagle parameters so I was also in line with what upline advised.
I stated that I made some money, which was reinvested into more tools, per upline advice.
You claim I don't post any hard facts. That is true, but the same can be said of Amway IBOs and Amway Corporation. For example, they tell you that a Q12 diamond earns in excess of $500K. But they don't tell you that a Q12 diamond is a rare exception and that a non Q12 diamond's average income is in the 150K range.
Anyway, I'm not even sure what your point is in your comment.
Since you refused to post hard facts and instead make excuses I've done research of my own. After finding out about your multiple fake accounts that you use to backup your posts, mr. Nakamura, I am stepping out of this pointless conversation. I will have to continue my research independently elsewhere since I cannot take advice from you after reading this article:
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/who-is-amway-critic-joecool-and-does-he-owe-me-50000/
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Facebook_Nakamura_Amway3.jpg
From the latest post by "Cassaundra" (2:59 PM), we learn that she is trying to decide on whether Amway is a viable business for her to invest in. Yeah, sure.
Does that actually sound believable to anyone here? Also, why does she bring up the boring old chestnuts about the "Fortune 500 companies" that are allegedly backing Amway, and the meaningless Better Business Bureau rating? That stuff is right out of the Amway propaganda book.
She says "if you had 40 downline all at 100 points you would make more money than if you sponsored one person at 2500 points and another person at 1500 points."
Immediately after that sentence, she realizes that she has made a damaging admission. Only someone well versed in Amway knows a detail of that nature. So she then tries to cover up by adding "I know it is a little redundant of me to study the structures of how this thing works before I spend my time and energy but I don't wish to invest in another failed business system."
That sentence can be translated easily: "I'm not in Amway, but I'm thinking about it." How many times have we had Amway partisans coming here and telling that very same lie?
Cassaundra is in Amway, or is connected with Amway, or is for some other reason coming here to defend Amway with her fake pose of neutrality. She wants to sound like a disinterested and thoughtful potential investor. Asking Joe Cool to produce records from twenty years ago is pure hypocrisy and fakery. If she were really just a disinterested investor looking at business opportunities, why would she be such an obvious defender of Amway?
Also, this isn't the only website to be anti-Amway or anti-MLM. Perhaps if Cassaundra looked at some of them, she'd find the hard statistics and figures she pretends to be so concerned about.
Cassaundra,
The point main points Joe Cool is making in this blog article where he cites Amway stats, does not stand or fall by what you think of his credibility. Like the 183.
No "hard facts"? Citing Amway's 183 per month is quite hard. For me 183 per month (at the time I was pushed it was 202) was strongly suggesting I needed to stay far away from persuing the opportunity.
It's difficult for me to see how your point (or the point made to you which you regard as good enough to quote here) of Amway itself being backed by 80 Fortune500 companies can be more relevant than the average. Legal gambling houses are often well run and financially sound, pay taxes, give to charity, and partner with hotel and fast food groups, car manufacturers, holiday operators and more. That does not mean what they offer to participants will make the participants money. What matters is your expected returns. The expected return for Amway, if you end up in the active group is 183 per month before expenses.
Joecool's own claim for gross is 5 times higher than Amway's claim, so I don't see how discrediting his claim will help to make Amway look like a better opportunity.
Nobody I know of claims that owning an Amazon business saves marriages. Yet I have heard it claimed about Amway. I would then think it is actually quite relevant if very prominent ambassodors of this very claim get divorced. Your reference to Amazon has no equivalence here.
"I can claim that my argument is legitimate and that an (sic) Amazon business owners (sic) are fools because they have no hard fact to prove that you can be successful as an Amazon business owner."
Actually no, you can't claim that. Of course there are many ways to partner with Amazon (referrals, supplier, selling etc). None of the standard agreements are exclusive to my knowledge. I took selling as that was the first that came up. 5 minutes of googling reveals that in 2015 there were 1 million sellers (active/ inactive) on Amazon, selling 2 billion items. That is 2,000 items per seller. If the average cost per item is $20 and the average markup is 25% then the average seller earns $10,000 per year in comms, just from Amazon. I would say since Amazon does not push or make claims about proven plans, the business plans of sellers can differ wildly, and the expected value is less meaningful. In this context, it still happens that the fact that the expected value already far exceeds Amway. Ironic in the light that nobody claims anything about the Amazon opportunity, that it's going to make your dreams come true.
Webretailer provides loads and loads of further statistics. And I do mean, loads and loads.And then some more.
Of all the business that you could choose, one linked to Amazon was probably the worst example. The industry teems with stats and facts. Also an Amazon business can sell through any channel they like, they can advertise all they like. That puts a stange perspective on the "independent" "I" of IBO.
"I can say all day long that Amazon business owners don't make any money". You can but it would sound silly. The stats (I casually referenced the tip of the iceberg here) empathically shows otherwise. The Amway stats shows 183.
Cassaundra said, "You make generalized statements but do not post any hard fact."
Joe has gone out of his way to do the math involving his former "Amway Business". If you chose not to read it, then that is different, but to suggest he sits here makes vague or "generalized" statements is ridiculous.
Cassaundra said, "I can say all day long that Amazon business owners do not make any money running an Amazon business and I can say that I run an Amazon business and was broke at the end of the day. I can say that Amazon businesses destroyed marriages because I knew people who owned them that ended up getting divorced . I can claim that my argument is legitimate and that an Amazon business owners are fools because they have no hard fact to prove that you can be successful as an Amazon business owner."
What the heck are you talking about? Amazon never came up, and it is a completely different business model. I can personally say, before I was asked to join Amway, that an Emerald told me, in not so many words, that it was either Amway or your fiance (now wife). Not only is my story not unique, but I'm fairly certain no other "business" requires you to choose when it comes to this subject. As for the other crap you spewed, there are very valuable statistics, and Amway's OWN figures, that show 99% fail. How is that not hard proof?
Cassaundra said, "I am looking for functioning business models and doing research on them before I make investments. You make a lot of strong points and while your detractors post little more than statistics I have not seen you do anything else to be completely honest."
I would highly recommend investing in a college education. You can't even type paragraphs. Posting statistics is literally the most accurate way to get a conclusion based on the data presented. I'm guessing you are already a shill for Amway, because this is the same BS rhetoric they espouse about stats and how they are bad. Statistics are objective, they are better than anyone's anecdotal opinion, they incorporate a wide variety of subjects, they get more accurate as more data is entered. Enough with this, statistics are not valuable BS, they are more important than anything else.
Cassaundra said, "For example if you had 40 downline all at 100 points you would make more money than if you sponsored one person at 2500 points and another person at 1500 points."
This is one of the biggest issues that keeps coming up with these stupid compensation plans. If you spent $100.00 on feathers and $100.00 on bowling balls, then which would cost more? Obviously neither, as that is the same dollar amount. Why then, would it matter how you get to a certain gross amount of dollars spent if it is 40 people or 2 people? The answer is, it doesn't, it's just a game they play to swindle "distributors". To make matters worse, that encourages, or rather forces, "distributors" to focus on recruiting instead of selling products, because you are literally saying, the dollar amount sold doesn't matter, but rather how it is split among the members. This is completely backwards.
Cassaundra said, "I know it is a little redundant for me to study the structures of how this thing works before I spend my time and energy but I don't wish to invest in another failed business system."
Oh stop it! First of all, that isn't "redundant" (I don't think you know what that word means), and second of all, it is necessary to understand a business opportunity in its entirety. The main point is, no IBO's ever take this much time to "study" this unless they are already involved, and even then most don't know the jargon laced mind numbing rhetoric you are using. Therefore, it is safe to say, you are already a shill for Amway.
Cassaundra said, "I have them responding by pointing out that they have 80 different Fortune 500 companies backing their credibility as well as a plus ratings with the Better Business Bureau."
Who cares? Fortune 500 companies will say anything to make a dollar, and Amway has been utilizing their "distributors" as a marketing base for selling products outside of the Amway product line for years. They love to use the word "partnering", but it isn't, it is just another disguise for selling to their "distributors".
Oh, and the BBB is not a completely reliable source. In fact, I would never go there to try and get an idea about a company because their requirements for an "A+" rating are ridiculous. It doesn't matter how many complaints are filed, as long as the company responds to them, then they will not receive negative marks.
Cassaundra said, "As for the other random people who are being hateful because I asked for profit and loss statements and the structure of his business to prove that a business system isn't viable I'm curious what your personal stake is and why you feel the need to comment with childish hateful comments."
Let's not get emotional Cassaundra. There are a lot of reasons to be mad at Amway. These people have been wronged, and they are entitled to their opinions, especially since they are accurate. Also, you have appeared to be less than genuine, as you have acted like you aren't a full-fledged adherent, but you continue to use pro-Amway rhetoric. Joe's profit/loss statements aren't going to affect the outcome of your decision. You are putting out a false narrative. Why would you put so much stock into Joe's opinions, if you have already gotten this deep in the Amway koolaid? This is just another fruitless attempt to try and attack Joe and his blog by a disgruntled IBO.
"Cassaundra Wolf" was clearly a shill for Amway, sent over here to try and do some damage control. This is in fact a very promising sign.
Cassaundra posed as a "thoughtful investor," merely interested in "the truth about Amway." By doing this she hoped to deflect other visitors to this blog from taking the critiques posted here seriously. She was putting on a dog-and-pony show, or what intelligence agencies call "a false-flag operation."
It backfired on her, because she was careless in her rhetoric. Her language was pure Amspeak, and she made an abstruse reference to PV structure that could only have been known by an experienced IBO. Cassaundra is probably in WWDB or Network.
Why is this promising? It shows that Amway is SCARED SHITLESS. This website alone will soon have over a million page views. Hundreds of people have been warned off Amway and MLMs in general. Amway's sales in North America are tanking at the rate of nearly 10% per year. It's getting close to impossible to recruit new IBOs, except among the very ignorant and hopeless.
That's why Amway is trying to send operatives like "Cassaundra" here, so as to fight surreptitiously and in disguise. In this case it failed -- we flamed her ass and she won't be back.
But more of this stuff is coming. Just wait and see.
"Cassaundra" said, "Since you refused to post hard facts and instead make excuses I've done research of my own. After finding out about your multiple fake accounts that you use to backup your posts, mr. Nakamura, I am stepping out of this pointless conversation. I will have to continue my research independently elsewhere since I cannot take advice from you after reading this article:"
Wow! Not only are you a MLM shill, but you are referencing material from IBOFightback a.k.a David Steadson. Are you joking? That guy is one of the worst Amway shills of all time, and yet you want to act as though he has the answers you are seeking? You didn't even bother to reference Amway themselves? What a joke! You are a propaganda whore!
I also have it on good authority that "Steve Nakamura" is an alias. I can't believe people like you are still exist and are trying to damage people's lives. Joe's anonymity has no effect on your life, and there is absolutely no excuse for anyone to try and dox someone, especially over Amway. You are the lowest of Amway cretins, and you deserve to lose all of your money to the Amway scheme.
P.S. If this is the real David Steadson pretending to be "Cassaundra Wolf", then you can, from the bottom of my heart, go f*** yourself.
FYI for my reading audience,
I first started blogging about Amway on a forum (now defunct) called "Quixtar Blog". Prior to that, I saw other Amway related sited where people were "outed" or threatened, or cyber bullied if you will. So I created a pen name or pseudonym "Steve Nakamura", which is a very common name in Hawaii where I live. Funny that "Cassaundra" didn't find the article where an Amway employee identified David Steadson as a cyber bully for some of his "work"
It's funny that "Cassaundra" points to some article that claims I have fake accounts because on Statcounter.com, I usually label the IP address of troublesome commentators on this blog and I found that "Cassaundra" used to post comments as an IBO named "Rick" in the past. Isn't that an interesting find?
Yes, I remember "Rick." He would come here and whine that we were wrecking the chances of his Amway business. Now we find out that he's the mysterious "Cassaundra Wolf."
I take back my suggestion that Amway sent him here to cause trouble. Amway wouldn't choose somebody that dumb for a job of that nature.
Joe --
Unbelievable! This idiot shill "Rick" from "Liberty Marketing" is still commenting on your blog! I should have known, especially when he was using that ridiculous thought-stopping rhetoric. Only true Amway believers talk like that, and even when he tried to pretend to be an objective investor, he couldn't hide his true nature and passion for Amway.
It is interesting that Rick chose to pose as a woman. Maybe this says something about some of his darker secrets and the identity he wishes to hide from the world. It's funny how he tried to be more polite under the "Cassaundra" identity until his plan started to backfire and he went back to his old ways. I bet he thought doxing you would be his ultimate "win". Totally pathetic.
By the way, I'm not sure why that other comment posted under the alias "Ben Dover", but that was supposed to be from me. I must have had a different e-mail logged in at work.
Welcome back Rick! Unreal! And a bit pathetic too I'm sorry to say. I didn't think anyone in Amway suffered integrity issues Rick?? But here you are as Caussandra???
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