Amway Millions?

 I was sponsored into Amway by a good friend back in the 1990's. My friend had gone "direct" at the time so he recruited me by saying that going direct was "easy" and that he could easily show me how to do it. I had been recruited by an Amway IBO before and it was not a good experience where I was lied to in order to get me to "see the plan". I was in college and a friend had invited me to a "beer bust". I attended the meeting wearing a T-shirt and jeans only to arrive to see people wearing suits and ties and I was thinking WTH? My friend who invited me assured me that we would down some beer after the meeting. I was mad even though I stayed for the meeting.

I didn't join and my friend eventually told me that he may not be able to hang out with me in the future because he would be rich and may not have time to hang out anymore. I went home a bit mad and spoke to my friend who I came with. We talked about whether money could be made in Amway and decided that the Amway opportunity was likely saturated, so we decided not to join.

Fast forward to the 1990's and a friend of mine has gone "direct". I didn't really know exactly what that was, but I knew that the term "direct" meant you accomplished a significant level in Amway. I decided to join and see if my friend could deliver on his promise that he could show me how to go direct. I should have taken it as a red flag when I asked him about his Amway income, and he told me it was none of my business. But he smoothed that over by assuring me that we would both be "Millionaires" traveling the world together in the future.

I worked really hard and managed to sponsor 12 frontline legs in about 7-8 months and I was climbing the Amway ladder. I was considered a "mover and shaker" so I got exclusive time with the upline Diamond. I even got to attend special meetings and house "plans" with the diamond.

The ironic part of their story is that I purchased a home in the year 2000 and I made the purchase for about $300K. My real estate agent also knows my Amway sponsor and contacted him about purchasing a home on Oahu (Hawaii). My former sponsor told the agent that he would only buy a home in cash (Amway/WWDB teaching). Fast forward to 2023 and my $300K home is worth approximately 1.2 million dollars so my home equity alone nearly makes my net worth more than a million dollars. When you add in my cash savings and investments, I am doing quite well.  Sure, nothing to brag about and it's still not a life of excess luxury, but my former sponsor from Amway who is a physician is still renting a home and is nowhere close to retiring. I retired several years ago, with enough cash to live comfortably which includes frequent travel other luxuries.

While I may not be a diamond living the "diamond" lifestyle you see at functions on a slide show, I suspect that I'll be better off that some of the diamonds who live "bouts check to bonus check" trying to portray a lifestyle of "keeping up with the Joneses". Diamonds portray an excessive lifestyle of wealth but I suspect that many of them cannot afford the lifestyle they portray. There have been "factoids" that support my claims. The fact that a triple diamond in WWDB declared chapter 7 bankruptcy and another diamond had a home foreclosed (diamonds pay cash for everything?) shows that diamonds may not be as financially free as they claim.

So who's making millions in Amway?   It's not the rank and file IBOs, although some tenured diamonds might be.

The Pitch?

 Many people have experienced some kind of pitch by an Amway IBO. My first Amway pitch was an invitation to a beer bust while I was in college. I arrived at the meeting expecting beer and pizza only to see people in suits giving a presentation. They spoke about how you could generate income by eliminating the middleman from product distribution. Creating efficiencies was a way to generate money and Amway was it. On the surface, it can seem as if everything the speaker said made sense, although real life practice doesn't bear it out.  A lot of Amway talk is like that.  It sounds sensible until you try it.  For example, they might ask if you want to make money or save money.   For the vast majority of Amway IBOs, they do not make a net profit or save any money.  But of course, saying it makes a lot of sense on the surface.

Sell and use consumables. Consumables need to be re-purchased so obviously it is a good way to run a small business. What wasn't discussed was the higher prices of the products. What many people do not see is that Amway's generous bonuses have to be built into the price of the products. For this reason, Amway cannot compete with big retailers who don't have to add salespeople bonuses into their prices.

But if you look beyond all of this and still think Amway is a good opportunity, then the real Amway pitch comes in. People get excited about working part time, 2-5 years to earn willable and residual income which will allow someone to retire early and leave a legacy to future generations. This is the point where the Amway presenter makes the pitch about people needing training.   You need to invest in yourself so that you get the proper training to accomplish this task right?   Many IBOs do not know that their sponsors are supposed to train them free of charge.  

You need tools. After all, a carpenter can't build a house without tools, right? So many people who think Amway will make them rich, start to invest in their "tools". Sure, the Amway functions and some other materials can make you feel good or motivated, but in the end, the tools are supposed to help you generate sales and to increase your business revenue. What goes unnoticed in many cases is that the Amway tools are the reason for an IBO's net losses. The upline will justify this by telling stories about how success is right around the corner or that you should never quit, and you will eventually make it.

But on the other hand, even if a carpenter needs tools, that carpenter doesn't need 43 hammers, 5 drills, and 7 of each kind of tool right?

All of this rhetoric from Upline is nice, but people who don't quit have no assurance of making it. Look at the fruit on the tree.  My former LOS, WWDB, has fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO 30 years ago. My former sponsor is still active in Amway after 30 years and he's not even a platinum. You don't see many new diamonds except for in foreign countries. To me, this is evidence that Amway is saturated and there is little chance of future success. This is why there are mostly tired old diamonds working until they pass away. If the diamonds were so "awesome", why aren't all of their kids and close friends also in diamond club?   Surely a diamond can train their kids and friends to become diamonds right?  LOL

No Crossline?

 No crosslining was something that I was taught as a WWDB IBO and apparently, it is still being taught as a general practice in most, if not all LOSs. But this concept of not crosslining is just a mind control technique used by upline to control information. Uplines don't want their downline to talk to each other and have them accidently realize that they are losing money, primarily because of tool expenditures. Or they don't want them to give each other revelations about how certain practices are bad ideas. For this very reason, IBOs should be able to speak to other "Independent Business Owners". If one truly owns their own business, then it is of no business to the upline who an independent business owner speaks to.  In real business, this is very valuable for business owners to discuss ideas and concepts as a means to improve business.  But apparently not in Amway.

To back up my claim, why would any IBO attend a function, open meeting, or listen to a standing order that was not in their immediate upline or further upline? If that concept is a bad idea, why is it okay for IBOs to attend these meetings, especially when there is usually a cost associated? Why in the past, was it okay for me as an IBO to attend a function with Bill Britt speaking when I was in WWDB? What good would it do listen to a standing order of Paul Miller or some other high level IBO when they are crossline?

Then your upline gives you the line that you can listen but just take what you need from it and dump the rest. Couldn't you make the same argument for speaking to crossline IBOs at a function? Afterall, who would be better to relate to a new IBO than another fairly new IBO. Does an older timer diamond even know how to use a computer? But here he will give speeches on how to run a web-based business, but fellow IBOs are not supposed to speak to other crossline IBOs because they may or may not be affected by what is said. I believe it is for this very reason that many IBOs are discouraged from reading the newspaper and/or from watching the news on television. It would appear that uplines want their groups to become apathetic and only intake positive Amway information. It is for these very reasons that some groups receive the tag of "cult" I would be wary if my church pastor told me I could not visit and listen to another pastor in another church.

It would be odd if I owned a business, attended a business owner convention but was told not to talk business with other business owners. But that is exactly what IBOs are being told when an upline tells them not to crossline with other IBOs. It would appear that upline has something to hide or doesn't want downline to discover any information about the truth of what's going on.

If your group discourages crosslining, you should ask why the rule is in place. As an INDEPENDENT business owner, you have the right to speak to anyone you want to at an Amway convention. Amway has no rules against this. It is the groups such as WWDB or Network 21 that make up these kinds of rules, probably because they are seeking to control your intake of information. The question to upline should be "why".   Their response might be entertaining after you have read this blog post.

Level Playing Field?

 The Amway business is a level playing field. At least that's what my upline told us when I was an IBO. That everyone starts at zero. While that is somewhat true, there were other factors that existed, that most IBOs did not know about. That factor is the possibility of PV manipulation. I believe that groups that are not on direct fulfillment (Groups still calling in and picking up) are able to transfer PV around. Thus, certain groups or favored downline could be manufactured into higher pins. I believe most groups are currently on direct fulfillment, but I did confirm about less than a year ago that some groups still are on call in and pick up.

But let's examine the concept that everyone starts at zero. While this aspect may be true, certain people are simply better at selling, or better and more adept at socializing and talking to others. So, while your PV count may be zero, the skills needed to start and run a business is not a level playing field for most. I believe uplines state this to give prospects the idea that everyone has an equal chance at succeeding in Amway. I just cannot believe this to be true. Even current diamonds, while having achieved a certain level, probably could not "start at zero" again and build a diamond business.

Thus, when you really think about it, the "old timers" of the diamonds should actually be given less credibility than the newer ones. Do you really believe that a diamond or higher pin who built his business in the 1970's can really teach people in 2023 how to build the business in a way to address people in 2023, and the fact that the business is mostly internet based as opposed to the old days, not to mention the advance of social media, text messaging and other modern forms of communication.

It is easy to stand on stage, tell people how great you are, show off material wealth and then tell prospects that everyone starts at zero and that anyone can build the business. I do not believe that it is true. I also strongly suspect that very few (if any) of the current diamonds would be able to "start at zero" and build a new diamondship here in the US, where the reputation and shrinking sales would be handicaps too great to overcome for the vast majority of propsective IBOs. I recall back in 2005 or 2006, WWDB had a commitment for personal growth amongst the diamonds and above. I do not believe much fruit was grown out of that effort. The diamonds had committed to duplicating their groups to prove it could be done. Not a single one of them, as far as I know, advanced to a significantly higher level (i.e. diamond to double diamond).

The diamonds can claim a level playing field but it down work when the rubber meets the road.

Real Or Amway Business Expenses?

 A recent sight visitor posted this link which I found interesting and humorous. I did not post the entire link, so there is more material. Check it out.

http://riles52.blogspot.com/2011/06/selling-soap-as-hobby-amway-ibos-in-tax.html

Selling Soap as a Hobby - Amway IBO's in Tax Court
Roger S. Campbell, et ux. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 2011-42

The Amway distributorship system is well known to respondent and this Court
Friscia Construction, Inc., et al. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 2000-192

I included the Campbell case in one of my group posts. It concerned someone whose Amway activities were considered a hobby by the Tax Court denying them deductions for losses. That portion of the post was picked up by someone who calls himself Joecool and posted on his blog under the title "Do IBO's have a clue about business?". I found that there are quite a few blogs dedicated to pointing out the downside of the Amway experience including Married To An Ambot by Anna Banana :

The other attraction of Amway to some people is that it might allow them to deduct as business expenses things like cars, part of their home or entertainment that they would have spent anyway. That's probably the aspect of Amway that the IRS finds most interesting. Joecool did a post on how some IBO's think of their income tax refunds (generated by Amway losses sheltering other income) as profit.

To me the most interesting thing that I found in my search is this excerpt from the Internal Revenue Manual for examiners who are doing information requests:

.4.4.3.39 — Amway Corporation
[Last Revised: 12-10-2007]
(1) Amway Corporation has waived the hand delivery requirements of 26 USC §7603 and will accept summonses by personal service, mail, or overnight service at Amway Corporation, 7575 E. Fulton, Ada, MI 49355, Attn.: Director, Legal Division. Direct distributors who further qualify for profit sharing bonuses receive the non-cash part of that bonus through a mutual fund account administered by Amway Mutual Fund, Inc., 7575 E. Fulton, Ada, MI 49355, which requires a separate summons

Now I am subject to the AICPA Statements of Standards on Tax Practice, which among other things forbids me from giving clients advice based on what I believe the audit selection process of a taxing authority is. I wouldn't do it anyway, because I think most people who give that type of advice are guessing. Even if you happen to be one of my clients, I'm speaking to you purely as a reader here when I give you this advice:

You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger

And you don't take no Schedule C losses from an arrangement with a company that IRS examiners have on speed-dial.

I found 23 cases of IBO's who fought the IRS in Court. (A couple appealed, but I only counted them once)They pretty much all lost. In these type of cases there are really three ways you are denied deductions. The first is substantiation. You didn't prove it. Next is that the expenses are not really ordinary and necessary expenses of the business. When you are talking about cars and business use of the home, those two issues can get blurred together. The third is that there really isn't any business there. Taxpayers fight the IRS and win on that issue frequently even a Vietnamese couple whose "business" was playing slot machines using the principles of Feng Shui. Amway IBO's who take on the IRS on the Section 183 "hobby loss" issue almost always lose.

One of the most common themes is that IBO's seek advice generally only from their "uplines", who of course are not disinterested. They also do not seem to put any energy into trying to control their expenses. I'm going to give you a little snippet from each of the cases and comment a bit on some of them.

LOPEZ v. COMM., Cite as 94 AFTR 2d 2004-7075
Jorge N. Lopez, et ux. v. Commissioner , TC Memo 2003-142

Tax Court properly determined that engineer and wife weren't entitled to business deduction for expenses incurred in connection with their Amway products distribution activity because they didn't engage in activity for profit: although taxpayers showed proof of profit motive, such wasn't sufficient to override govt.'s evidence that included their failure to keep businesslike records, their failure to alter unprofitable methods, their non-dependence on activity income, and their use of activity to socialize with friends and family.

In their own Amway activities, which began in 1996, the Lopezes sold products at cost to both their downline distributors and their customers, which practice eliminated retail sales as a source of gross income. They chose instead to focus their efforts on developing a network of downline distributors to generate performance bonuses. Relying on Amway brochures, the Lopezes concluded that they would need to achieve and maintain a monthly point value of 4,000 for their Amway activities to be profitable. In 1998 and 1999, the Lopezes' point value did not exceed 372 points in any month.


The only advice they sought for their Amway activities was from upline distributors, and when they received unsolicited advice from their accountant, they disregarded it. During the years in question, Mr. Lopez was employed full-time as a petroleum engineer, and Mrs. Lopez was a homemaker.

The tax court ultimately was not persuaded that the Lopezes' primary motive for conducting their Amway activities was for income or profit. It found that the conduct of their Amway activity “virtually precluded any possibility of realizing a profit.” The Lopezes' lack of a business plan for recouping losses and achieving profitable levels of activity indicated the absence of a profit motive. In the face of four consecutive years of losses, the Lopezes still did not change their approach to increase the likelihood of earning a profit. The tax court further found that the Lopezes did not conduct market research to help them assess the potential profitability of their activities. It also noted that, although the Lopezes had no prior business experience, they accepted the advice of upline distributors rather than seeking advice from unbiased, independent business sources.

Since the Mr and Mrs Lopez appealed, they got to lose twice.

OGDEN v. COMM., Cite as 87 AFTR 2d 2001-1299
Michael A. Ogden, et ux. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 1999-397
Contrary to the Ogdens' contention, evidence of profit is not determinative of whether a profit motive exists. See id. at 876 (no single tax regulation factor, nor the existence of a majority of factors, is determinative of whether a profit motive exists). There is overwhelming evidence in the record that, if believed, supports a conclusion that the Ogdens maintained their Amway activity for deductions, personal pleasure and to offset wages. The tax court did not abuse its discretion in denying the motion for reconsideration.

Amway does not have a quota for sales, its products do not have to be sold above cost, and its distributors are not required to sponsor downline distributors. An Amway brochure, The Amway Business Review, states that the potential for earning income increases as the number of distributors in a sponsor's group grows and as sales increase. Distributors devote as little or as much of their time to Amway activities as they desire. The eight page Amway Business Review in large blocks on four of its pages highlights the fact that “The Average Monthly Gross Income for “Active” Distributors was $88.”

We believe Amway distributors may be biased when discussing Amway because they have a natural desire to advance the organization and/or obtain income from a downliner.


ELLIOTT v. COMMISSIONER, 90 TC 960

Deductions denied for business expenses and depreciation connected with Amway distributorship. Activities were conducted in unbusinesslike manner, taxpayers maintained full-time jobs, and little distinction was made between Amway activities and personal social activities. Also, IRS properly imposed penalties for failure to timely file and negligent or intentional disregard of rules.

A further indication of the unbusinesslike fashion in which petitioners conducted their Amway activity was the thin line dividing business activities from personal and [pg. 973]recreational activities. Petitioners offered scant evidence that their Amway activity required them to do anything other than to maintain an active social life. Although they occasionally attended seminars, most of their activity involved giving parties and taking people out to restaurants. While there is no requirement that profit-oriented work be onerous and unpleasant, the evidence presented by petitioners does not indicate activity motivated by a profit objective. On the contrary, the evidence shows that petitioners made some small modifications in their routine social life, kept cursory notes about their activities, and claimed deductions for the cost of nearly everything they owned or did. On this record, we find as a fact that petitioners' activities were motivated by a desire to avoid tax rather than a desire to generate income.

Roger S. Campbell, et ux. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 2011-42

Activities not for profit—profit objective—distributorship and direct marketing activities. Code Sec. 183 deduction limits applied to expenses pro se married real estate and construction business operators claimed in connection with Amway distributorship activity that they engaged in without requisite profit objective. Lack of profit objective was shown by facts that taxpayers commingled expenses, had no idea if they were making profit for any given year until they filed that year's return, didn't keep complete records, and otherwise didn't conduct activity in businesslike manner. It was also telling that taxpayers didn't have experience in this type of activity, didn't seek out independent advice, used activity losses to offset their real estate and construction business income, and stated that they would continue with activity regardless of whether it ever turned profit. Countervailing facts that they spent significant time on activity and increased gross receipts during years at issue weren't dispositive considering overall record

Avoid The Amway Name?

 I often find it comical that to this day, I still see people who like to hide the Amway name when recruiting others. I believe this tactic has been a major factor in why Amway has a bad reputation in North America. When I was recruited, I was lied to as well. I was invited to a "beer bust" only to find out it was an Amway meeting. I went home that night thinking WTH was that? They lie to us and then expect us to join the business. And to this day, I believe this practice continues. They might use another name such as "Liberty Marketing" or "Worldwide Group" to mask the opportunity they are pitching. My question is why?

Over the years, IBOs have tried all kinds of ways to disguise the Amway opportunity. In the past, it was network marketing, e-commerce, online shopping mall and the corporation even changed Amway in North America to "Quixtar". Sadly, the name change to quixtar did not work, probably because the same tactics were used when recruiting new IBOs into Quixtar. Amway eventually changed the name back to Amway. I believe this bad reputation in North America is why Amway, in years past, enjoyed the most business growth overseas where people either do not know the Amway name, and likely because there haven't been enough former Amway/AMO victims to soil the name in other countries. As markets mature and people get to know about Amway, we se what is happening now. Amway revenues have plummeted from 11.8 billion in 2013 to 8.8 billion (global) in 2016. That's a serious decline!

So IBOs, how can you expect someone to trust you and do business with you if you are deceitful or outright lie about the Amway opportunity? Are you ashamed of the Amway name? If you are ashamed or scared to drop the "A bomb" on people, how will you ever be able to show any plans, let alone sponsoring anyone into the business? My former sponsor used to tell our group that the biggest challenge is overcoming the name Amway. To be fair, Amway the corporation is not the reason for the bad reputation. It is the unethical and bad behavior of IBOs that lead to a bad reputation but on the other hand, it's not the like Amway police have been cracking down and visibly taking action against the violators so Amway is also guilty to some degree.

Conversely, people who come right out and talk about Amway are unlikely to net any decent results either because of the past reputation. It's an almost no-win situation for IBOs and prospects. For these reasons, I believe it to be nearly impossible to build and maintain a group, especially if your goal is to reach diamond. It seems as if more diamonds have left Amway in recent years than there have been new diamonds. I believe this to be spot on for WWDB, my former LOS. So IBOs, are you ashamed of Amway? If not, why are there still so many IBOs using trickery and deception in recruiting prospects?

If you avoid using the Amway name, what are you ashamed of?

Amway Saves Marriages?

 http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/will-amway-make-you-annoying/comment-page-12/#comment-92192

■DoAsISay on January 8th, 2012 9:31 pm
I finally decided to search the web after being out of Amway now since February 2011. I was hesitant to do so because I had been told not to so many times by my uplines that there is negative on the internet even about Mother Teresa. That was the “line” that they used to trick me into not doing my research. I am a college graduate with a bachelors degree in accounting and I was taught to always research a company to learn more about them if you are going to be involved with them. Anyways, I am glad that I did because I now realize that I am not the only one who disagrees with Amway and their approaches to “the business”.

A little more background about my situation which I’m sure is not unique to many others who have been in Amway. My girlfriend and I were introduced to this business by a friend of my girlfriend and her husband. From the presentation that was shown to me I thought that it sounded VERY easy to do. I was told that I only needed 3 friends out of my 200 contacts in my phone to want to save money and make money at the same time. That was the first lie that I later found out. First of all, we didnt save any money. We threw away over $7000 and saw under $300 return. How exactly am I saving money? Secondly, IF, IF you get (trick) 3 friends to signed up, you have alot more work to do than that. Try 50 people and by the time u get 50 people involved, 48 of those will have quit once they finally realize that you took advantage of them and weren’t straight forward with them.

So Time went on and I hung around and observed the behaviors of people in Amway and how they talked. I said to myself, I want to be nothing like these people. They all sounded the same to me and it was just a little weird. Finally I realize that they have all been brainwashed how to think, how to spend their money, who they spend their time with, and how they spend their time. Amway with the help of the “EDUCATION” has completely taken control of the lives of many, many naive, weak minded, gullible, ignorant, or too trusting (you fill in the blank) individuals who worship their upline like they are God. Sure I thought it was cool that I knew a millionaire and got to hang out at his house and all, but Im not going to empty my bank account for anyone! How about this line…”You don’t make money FROM your friends when they get involved, Your making money WITH your friends”. WHAT?!? Last time I checked anyone you sponsor in the business, you collect their business volume from the stuff they buy and get a kickback from those purchases. I believe that’s called making money FROM your friends. They have another sneaky tactic that they use to conceal the truth. “You’re not making money from your friends, Amway is paying you for driving volume to their website. Ok, Yeah that’s still making money from your friends. Im not an idiot and your blender of words and phrases don’t have any effect on me.

Back to November 2010, I got married to my girlfriend I was in the business with and shortly after she became an Ambot as I’ve heard people refer to it. In February 2011, i had enough of it and decided to cut my loses and get out. My wife didn’t share the same thoughts and feelings though because she had been soaking in every last drop of the expensive “Education” we were receiving. Up until the point of me getting out of the business since I had known her, we NEVER had an argument. We were inseparable and much in love. That all changed as time progressed. We started disagreeing and this horrible person came out of her as I never seen before. She physically hit me on 3 occasions and we would fight, mostly her, as I like to be calm and collective. I rather reason things out by gathering the facts and explaining my perspective. Her reasoning went out the door with her mind because everything out of her mouth was something about the business.

I spent many nights home alone waiting for her to get back from those stupid waste of time meetings. Eventually in October I had enough. We got in another fight and she asked me to leave, so I did! Now supposedly when a woman says leave, that means dont leave in translation, but I took it at face value and left. We are currently separated and in the process of filing for a dissolution. I never thought Amway could destroy a marriage like that, but I’ve read so many sad stories where has done just that. Like I said, I’m sure my story isn’t a unique one, but I just wanted to share in hopes that I can TRULY HELP people steer clear of this plague. Not only will it empty your bank account, waste time you could be living your life and enjoying the company of family and true friends, it will destroy your relationships with the ones you love. These people that were in our business call themselves Christians, yet they can easily let a marriage be destroyed and not even flinch. Greed and lies are all I see in these people!

I would like to sit my wife down and show her some information so maybe, just maybe she will snap out of it, but I feel like she is so programmed at this point that I won’t be able to get her to read it. If anybody actually reads my entire story (I know its long) and has any advice on getting her out let me know. I got nothing to lose at this point since I’ve pretty much lost the love of my life.