Likelihood Of Success?

 Many people consider the platinum level in Amway as a significant achievement in Amway. While it may be nice to achieve that level and gain recognition from the Amway corporation, I will point out that there was a study done in Wisconsin where the attorney general analyzed and found that platinums on average, lost money. The study is somewhat dated, but I will also point out that today, there are MORE expenses associated with running an Amway business than before. (Voicemail, books, functions, standing orders, shipping). I would guess that it's possible that platinums lose more today than when the Wisconsin study was done.

A typical platinum group often has 100 ore more downline IBOs. Thus, a logical conclusion is that less than 1% of IBOs can reach that level. It is also, apparently rare to maintain that level. My former upline diamond had 7 frontline platinums in his heyday. Actually, 6 of them were ruby level. None of them hold the platinum level today. So you have a less than 1% chance of reaching platinum and then you are unlikely to be able to maintain that level.

What serious prospective business owner would even consider opening a business where you have such a tiny chance of success? Even those who achieve platinum are likely to lose that level. If platinums cannot maintain their level, then it's easy to see why there are former diamonds as well. It seems that people are willing to take a chance on an Amway business because the startup cost is low. But what is the point of doing all of that when the chance of making money is negligible?

To compound the problem, many IBOs spend a lot of time and money building an Amway business that is unlikely to give them any return on their investment. I'd guess that the average serious IBO would spend $250 a month of more on tools. That money invested over a number of years in mutual funds would give you a much better chance of achieving some dreams. Even putting the money in the bank would make you better off than the vast majority of IBOs. A serious business owner would want to know their realistic chance of making money. For some strange reason, prospects and IBOs seem to ignore this reality.

It is because uplines are in the business of selling tools and distributorships. They are not truly interested in your long term sustainable success. If you don't believe me, try to stop purchasing standing orders and function tickets and see how much longer you are edified and given help from upline. Seriously, would a real business owner be interested in a less than 1% chance of success?

Freedom?

Financial Freedom! That was one of the major battle cries when I was recruited for the Amway business. You gain control of time and money by creating residual or passive income. That is true financial freedom. You wake up at noon, no job, and just do whatever you please, whenever you please. I remember the speaker saying that broke/unemployed people also had freedom, but it was different because they were broke and could not afford to go golfing or do other activities that required money on a regular basis. 

I am assuming that this is still the case for many IBOs. Of course, upline leaders may toss in a disclaimer that you don't get rich quick as an IBO, but the pitch apparently still contains the financial freedom and residual income theme, based on my experiences with IBOs. IBOs still think they will be rich. Also, 2-5 years sounds like "get rich quick" to me. 

But hey, financial freedom would be a great thing, don't get me wrong. Who wouldn't want to be 35 years old with enough cash to never have to work again? I mean I could spend some time imagining how fun that would be. It would also be fun to imagine what you would do with all the cash if you hit the powerball lottery as well. But for the starry eyed IBOs, I simply have a few questions for you to ponder. A few realistic questions that you should be asking yourself. The answers to these questions will tell you a lot. 

1. Who in your group or upline truly has achieved financial freedom? Have you seen their financials or simply a display of wealth such as mansions and fancy cars? Mansions and fancy cars could just be a massive pile of debt. Not too long ago, there apparently were diamonds who had their homes foreclosed, and a triple diamond who was in bankruptcy proceedings. Find out if anyone in your group/upline has actually achieved the success that they are using to recruit you. Also, if they are financially free, why do they work at function after function? Traveling and speaking might not be a traditional job, but it is still work, nonetheless. 

2. Even if you find someone who is retired and golfing everyday because of Amway residual income, ask yourself what the likelihood is that you will be able to achieve the same results. If diamonds are still working, what chance do you have of success if you are new or experienced in Amway, and have few or no downline. More than likely, your chance of winning the lottery will be greater than your chance of achieving a significant residual income from your Amway business. Also, I don't know of any Amway retirees who built their business once and walked away with any significant residual income from Amway. Do you?

A Letter To Amway?

 This is an open letter basically explaining Joecool's position and why in my opinion, criticism of Amway doesn't stop. (Reprinted, but still applicable today)

Dear Amway,

Why does criticism of Amway continue Ad Nauseum? Because you have not taken any apparent visible action(s) against higher level IBOs who make their living by ripping off unsuspecting prospects and faithful downline by feeding them lines about how easy it is to build an Amway business and how they can ditch their jobs and live on easy street. I saw it and there are countless testimonies and experiences posted on the internet.  Residual income, passive income or whatever it's called, continues to be a theme that get repeated by IBOs, in particular, newbies.

When I was an IBO in WWDB, we were fed outright lies by upline. Nobody made any money from tools being the biggest. Downline were taught how long they could string out their mortgages or electric bills so they can attend functions and buy more tools. Yes, IBOs have culpability as well, but the culture of these groups is one of trust and loyalty to the diamonds. Amway's owner, Mr. DeVos acknowledged this in his 1983 speech "directly speaking". But despite the speech, no apparent visible action was taken, thus the status quo continued. Even the accreditation system which seemed nice on the surface appears to be a farce. I believe that possibly millions of people over the years have been adversely affected financially because of some of these Amway IBO leaders.

Many of the same leaders who lied to benefit themselves are still at it. A fellow blogger named "Rocket" at one time, reported a possible violation where crown ambassador and IBOAI member, Brad Duncan is caught on tape claiming that IBOs can make "hundreds of thousands of dollars" a month in Amway. The apparent response was to make non sensical remarks and then eventually no response when pressed for one. I also reported a WWDB IBO who was making disparaging and false statements about some competitor's products while making misleading positive statements about Amway products. Your response was no response, and my comment wasn't even published on your "Amway Answers" blog. Ironically, one of the topics on that blog was about how Amway doesn't turn a blind eye to problems. Yeah, you can say it but your actions show something else.

Maybe someone can explain why actions in other countries indicate that the folks who sell Amway tools are scammers. For some reason, the regulatory agencies in the US have not taken notice of the tools business. The Dateline segment in 2004 exposed the tools and systems. It became a big debate on the internet with critics and proponents. While Amway can claim innocence because the unethical actions were taken by IBOs, or "independent" business owners, I still believe that Amway has a responsibility to reign is some of the sales force that represents them.

Food for thought: Joe Paterno was an assistant and head coach, an icon at Penn State University for more than 60 years. He was fired some time ago because he had knowledge of child abuse occurring at the program under his watch. While he was not personally guilty of this, and did many good things for Penn State and the community, still his inactions may have caused harm to befall innocent children. Ultimately, he had the ability and power to stop the wrongdoing but did not. It is a sad ending for a man who many consider a legend. I wish his family well.

Amway can reign in the tool abuse and take control of some of the bad leaders, but apparently has not and will not. The fight goes on......

No Responsibility?

 One of the disturbing things I have noticed about Amway IBOs and IBO leaders is how they will tell downline to trust them. To trust them as they have already blazed a trail. No need to re-invent the wheel. Just ride the coattails of your upline to success. The system is proven. Many IBOs take this to heart and put forth tremendous effort. Then when they ultimately fail, upline will shun them and tell them that the failure is their own. That they are personally responsible for failure.  In other words, upline suddenly has no responsibility for the downline failure despite the fact that the faithful downline may have done everything they were told to do.

Now I am not talking about IBOs who sign up and do nothing, or never place an order. I do believe that the fact that many IBOs sign up and do nothing brings concerns about how these IBOs were recruited, but I do not recall ever seeing an IBO do nothing and then complain that Amway was a scam or anything like that.  But there are plenty of IBOs, myself included, that put forth a lot of dedication and effort into building an Anway business.

I have found, however, that many people who are critical of Amway and the systems, put forth much effort, did everything they were told, and did not find the success that upline promoted, or in some cases, guaranteed. My former sponsor was still active, last I heard and has been in Amway for over 25+ years. I do not believe he has ever gone beyond platinum, and I know that he was never a Q12 platinum. Some Amway apologists might see being a platinum as a bonus, but when you are hard core sold out to the systems, platinums can still carry massive losses, although I have heard that platinum is a break even or make a small profit level in the Amway business. Factor in that time spent by husband and wife and these folks are losing money, breaking even or making a fraction of minimum wage. Is this the dream that will allow you to buy mansions with a cash payment? 

What is also disturbing is how people will tout the system as responsible for any success but hide the vast majority that the system doesn't help. Sure, some will succeed in Amway, but for every success, there are hundreds if not thousands who fail. And if you consider diamond as the benchmark of success, the failures could be in the millions. As I said, some succeed, but very very few in relation to the number who try. Going diamond is probably less common in the US than winning the lottery. 

Succeed and the systems and upline will quickly take credit for the success.  But fail or quit and it is your own responsibility. Are these the kinds of leaders or mentors you want advice from?   It's like playing a game of heads I win and tails you lose.  Sadly, many IBOs don't see this BS until they are in quite deep and then the sunken cost fallacy sets in, making it hard to quit sometimes.  Good luck to anyone who reads this and decides to try anyway.

Selling Amway Products?

 There's been much debate recently over the issue of IBOs selling products. Now of course in the IBO world, there are going to be some IBOs who are exceptional at selling products and possibly in foreign countries where Amway has not spoiled their reputation as it apparently has in North America, it might be possible to sell some products. But the experience of a typical IBO probably cannot be one where products flow to customers regularly. Now I do not wish to debate the merits of whether or not downline are considered customers as that is an endless and pointless debate because the bottom line would be that uplines are making their income on the backs of their downline, thus confirming the appearance of a product pyramid. Aside from downline, it would appear that the remaining customers are mostly sympathetic family and friends who buy a few token products.

But why do rank and file IBOs struggle to sell Amway products? Surely Amway has some decent and some good products. But in North America, Amway's goods are generic in nature but sell at premium prices. So, unless you are convinced that their quality is that great for the price, the average Joe is simply going to buy a similar product at WalMart or a Costco. Also, when you must justify and explain to potential customers that you actually provide a better value due to concentration and/or cost per use, it not only becomes labor intensive, but confusing for the average consumer. Add in the past reputation of the Amway name being associated with a scam or a pyramid and you have an extremely tough sell.

Partner stores are often used by IBOs to bring name credibility, but I wonder how many of these products are actually sold to customers.  I suspect that very few products are sold because the price is not that competitive and because many consumers, like myself prefer to touch and feel certain products before making a decision to buy. Even with a money back guarantee, customers don't want to be bothered with returning something via the mail. Also, the term partner store seems odd because Amway IBOs sell partner store goods, but "partner" stores don't sell Amway products. The relationship is not a two-way street, in other words.

Also, while Amway recently started to market their opportunity and goods with national advertising, I believe the advertising is more of a retention issue. IBOs can say "see, we're on TV, we must be credible". I believe it may be too late in North America. In the past. IBOs would say they had greater bonuses because Amway saved money on advertising. Thus IBOs engaged in the most inefficient manner of moving products. They did it person to person and in the past, door to door. The reason why super bowl commercials are so expensive is because they can reach tens or hundreds of millions of people worldwide. But basically, Amway IBOs to sell the products and the opportunity, must do it one person at a time, and they must also overcome the many negative opinions that North Americans have about Amway. Amway sales have been tanking since 2013. Amway revenues have gone from 11.8 billion at its peak in 2013 and dropped each year with 8.6 billion in 2017 being the most recent numbers.

But it is for these reasons that IBOs probably cannot move many products except to some family and friends. In what REAL business can you make a sustainable living, much less fabulous wealth by selling some goods to family and friends? I can't think of any, and you are seriously mislead if you think you can do this with Amway products and earn untold wealth and riches.

Observations About Amway?

 Observation #1: In general, IBOs are less successful in life than others.  Often they are young and in entry level types of jobs.  That is why they are more open to the business and why they can be convinced that there is a shortcut to retirement and perpetual wealth. When I was an IBO, I was not where I wanted to be financially, as I was younger and at the earlier stages of my career. I would not be open to “options” right now, however, many people looking for more in life or a shortcut to retirement may be more susceptible to looking at options. It's just that the Amway opportunity, in my opinion, is a poor option.

Observation #2: The biggest zealots/supporters appear to have the smallest businesses. They talk the talk - but no evidence of walk the walk. Also, any discussion about their personal success with the business is limited and shrouded in secrecy or they will make vague references about their level of success. They will say that their incomes are not relevant to the discussion or will point out a copy of someone's check or show a picture of a diamond's mansion but will never disclose real financials like a REAL business owner would.  

Observation #3: The business has a bad reputation and cannot be marketed to the general public without some degree of deception. It’s why there are so many testimonials of people tricked into attending meetings (including myself). Being straight forward with information will likely get you a resounding “No thanks”.

Observation #4: It would appear that much upline teaching is not focused on actually running a profitable business, but dedication to the system. It’s why so many IBOs don’t seem to know what a profit loss statement is, and don’t bother keeping one themselves. It’s also why the content of many BSMs is to purchase more BSMs. At functions, they will tell you to attend more functions and buy more standing orders, and on standing orders, they will tell you to never quit and to attend more functions.

Observation #5: IBOs in general don’t seem to have planned out their retirement. They are convinced that the Amway opportunity will provide for them when they reach their retirement years. They put down people who are working jobs and investing for their futures. They feel that purchasing function tickets is their investment for retirement. While a fraction of 1% might make some significant money in Quixtar, the vast majority do not. The fact that the majority may not have put forth a Herculean effort is irrelevant in my opinion. The bottom line is that the vast majority will not make an income from this opportunity. To ignore this fact is burying your head in the sand.

***Here is a link to a new Amway blogger. I checked it out and enjoyed the articles:

https://grannyolove.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-dealbreaker.html

My Amway Story?

 I was an IBO back in the 1990s'. Back then I was younger, and I got sucked into the hype that there might be a "shortcut" to riches and early retirement. When you're in your 20's or 30's, the idea of retiring in 5 years with enough money to enjoy life is very enticing. While I was a bit skeptical, I wanted to believe it and because my sponsor was a good friend, I ended up getting involved, believing that my friend would be able to guide me to the promised land. For a while, I appeared successful, sponsoring people and growing my volume (PV). I became what the diamonds called a "mover and shaker". I got to ride to some meetings with the diamond and whatnot. What I didn't realize at the time was that was how the upline nurtured a potential future "platinum" or direct distributor at the time.

While it looked like I was successful and climbing the ladder of success, what I saw behind the scenes was making some money but losing it right back because of functions that required air travel (I'm in Hawaii) or because following upline advice, I was investing in books, and tapes (now cds) and doing everything I could to "duplicate" my upline so I too, could be financially free.

At the time, our upline stood on stage and swore that nobody profited from tools. I thought that was odd because at big functions, we paid more than the cost of a rock concert for example, and I know that the rock stars were making good money, or they wouldn't hold concerts. And there's also the smaller functions and I also knew that rock stars made money selling (tapes at the time) cds. So I knew there was money involved but at the same time, our trusted diamonds said nobody profited and at the time I believed them. Eventually, I quit because at 4000 PV, I had no net profits as promised by upline. They kept telling me not to quit, the money will be there. But they also started trying to control my life. For example, they wanted mt to ask permission to get married, or to buy a new car. These were factors in why I eventually quit, plus the lack of a net profit.

Shortly after I quit, I came across a Newsweek article that completely exposed the fact that the diamonds had lied and they they made HUGE profits on tools. Some making more from tools than Amway. And the tools were supposed to be the secret to Amway success, but they were the secret to the diamond's success. And why wouldn't it? The tools had a much larger profit margin than Amway products, and basically only the emeralds and higher were getting any real money from the tools. I eventually forgot about the article and life went on.

Then one day I was googling to see what had happened to my upline diamond and I came across a forum called "Quixtar Blog" (now defunct) and the entire tools scam and diamond lies were exposed. After learning much and finally understanding the scam that was pulled on me, I started a blog to share my experiences. My blog was very successful, with hundreds of thousands of hits. That blog crashed when it was hacked and sabotaged, probably by an IBO, or possibly an Amway zealot of sorts.

Then in 2009, I started this blog. I made some safeguards to prevent hacking and I've been fighting the good fight ever since. I update this blog so unsuspecting prospects or information seekers can google and find information quickly. At least if they decide to join anyway, it's with full disclosure. Many people find what they need and make informed decisions about Amway. I consider it a public service since there aren't many resources out there anymore.

In my opinion, Amway is a bad idea because the company name is soiled with a bad reputation. Their products are generic in quality but carry a premium price, making it hard to impossible to sell at full retail price to make money. And to succeed, you must recruit a lot of downline, something that most people are not suited for. Most people have a better chance at winning the lottery than succeeding in Amway, which is sad because Amway isn't a game of chance, yet success rates are similar to games of random chance. That's why I don't do Amway.

Let's Make Millions?

 I was sponsored into Amway by a good friend back in the 1990's. My friend had gone "direct" at the time so he recruited me by saying that going direct was "easy" and that he could easily show me how to do it. I had been recruited by an Amway IBO before and it was not a good experience where I was lied to in order to get me to "see the plan". I was in college and a friend had invited me to a "beer bust". I attended the meeting wearing a T-shirt and jeans only to arrive to see people wearing suits and ties and I was thinking WTH? My friend who invited me assured me that we would down some beer after the meeting. I was mad even though I stayed for the meeting.

I didn't join and my friend eventually told me that he may not be able to hang out with me in the future because he would be rich and may not have time to hang out anymore. I went home a bit mad and spoke to my friend who I came with. We talked about whether money could be made in Amway and decided that the Amway opportunity was likely saturated, so we decided not to join.

Fast forward to the 1990's and a friend of mine has gone "direct". I didn't really know exactly what that was but I knew that the term "direct" meant you accomplished a significant level in Amway. I decided to join and see if my friend could deliver on his promise that he could show me how to go direct. I should have taken it as a red flag when I asked him about his Amway income and he told me it was none of my business. But he smoothed that over by assuring me that we would both be "Millionaires" traveling the world together in the future.

I worked really hard and managed to sponsor 12 frontline legs in about 7-8 months and I was climbing the Amway ladder. I was considered a "mover and shaker" so I got exclusive time with the upline Diamond. I even got to attend special meetings and house "plans" with the diamond.

The ironic part of the story is that I purchased a home in about the year 2000 and I made the purchase for about $300K. My real estate agent also knows my Amway sponsor and contacted him about purchasing a home on Oahu (Hawaii). My former sponsor told the agent that he would only buy a home in cash (Amway/WWDB teaching). Fast forward to 2023 and my $300K home is worth well over one million dollars so my home equity alone nearly makes my net worth over a million dollars.  Sure, nothing to brag about and it's still not a life of excess luxury, but my former sponsor from Amway who is a physician is still renting a home and is nowhere close to retiring. I have been retired for several years now, with enough cash to live comfortably which includes frequent travel and the ability to fly first class occasionally, when the prices are reasonable.  

While I may not be a diamond living the "diamond" lifestyle you see at functions on a slide show, I suspect that I'll be better off than some of the diamonds who live "bonus check to bonus check" trying to portray a lifestyle of "keeping up with the Joneses". Diamonds portray an excessive lifestyle of wealth, but I suspect that many of them cannot afford the lifestyle they portray. There have been "factoids" that support my claims. The fact that a triple diamond in WWDB declared chapter 7 bankruptcy and another diamond had a home foreclosed (diamonds pay cash for everything?) shows that diamonds may not be as financially free as they claim.

So who's making millions in Amway? IMO, they folks selling CDs, voicemail, functions and books.

Submission To Upline?

  Another cultish teaching that comes from upline diamonds is to submit to upline.  Sometimes it’s called being teachable but as you get more immersed in the system, you are expected to consult with upline did everything, including important life decisions such as getting married or buying a new car.  In retrospect, I believe it’s done because upline doesn’t want you making decisions that could hinder your ability to purchase tools.  

But they make it sound harmless, that checking upline can help you because upline has experience in the business and can tell you how some decisions can impact your business.  Sounds harmless but the upline teaches this more likely for their own benefit than for your benefit.  If you can recognize the game, you can see thru the idiocy of upline teaching.  

Sone upline even “counsel” their downline.  Can you imagine submitting to someone for such important decisions that can affect your life and your uplines qualification to do this is they joined Amway before you.  You could actually be a counselor, but you would be counseled by someone upline with less qualifications simply on the basis that they joined Amway before you.  Does that even remotely make any sense?

When I was an IBO back in the 1990s, I was engaged to be married and my upline advised to to dump my fiancée because I could build the business faster and if I achieved diamond, women would line up to court a single diamond.  By then I had already smelled a rat with regards to Amway teaching so that was the last straw for me. 

I was a 4000 PV IBO at the time, so I told my group what happened and that because of what happened, I had decided to walk away from Amway.  All of my group except 1 or 2 IBOs downline from me walked away when I did.  So my upline and sponsor went from direct distributor to less than 4000 PV and I do not believe he ever requalified at that level again.  

I do know that my sponsor was still active as recently as recently as a few years ago but I’m not sure if he’s still chasing Amway.  Being that he was a physician, I see it as a life wasted on Amway.   Submit to your upline is total BS.  

The Tools Don't Work?

 One of the things my Amway upline always pushed on us was the tools system. While the tools are said to be optional, they are not promoted that way. They were promoted as vital, necessary, almost as if you were insane to try and build an Amway business without tools. Basically the tools were a defacto requirement. My upline always claimed that nobody ever "made it" without tools. Some Amway defenders insist that the tools work, and that IBOs who were on the system proved it with higher levels of success and product volume. But the tools work for maybe a fraction of 1% of IBOs who try them. The vast majority of people who use tools make nothing or lose money. Similar to a lottery.

IBOs participating in the system (voicemail, book of the month, standing orders, functions, etc) do more PV. I believe this is true, but it is true, only because once the upline can convince you to participate in the system, then that same IBO is also convinced that they should or must do 100 PV as part of the deal. People who aren't convinced that the system is vital, subsequently do not purchase or sell as much PV because they have not been convinced that moving PV will make them successful or wealthy.

Critics and Amway supporters have debated this issue for years, but clearly, the evidence supports my position. Why? Because if there was a true demand for Amway products because of their quality and/or value, then there wouldn't be such a steep drop off in movement of volume when an IBO becomes a former IBO. Many, probably most former IBOs never buy a single Amway product once they leave the business. If the products had true quality and value as Amway supporters claim, why don't people continue to purchase 100 PV per month when they quit? Because they never wanted or needed all of that product in the first place? If former Amway IBOs continued to but products, Amway sales would continue to increase. Amway's sales and revenues dropped more than 25% from 2014 to now (2018).

If someone is convinced that Amway will be their financial savior and that by using tools and moving 100 PV will result in long term financial security and residual income as claimed by upline, then that is what they will do in hopes of achieving the end goal. When that goal or dream doesn't materialize, the former IBOs realize that the tools and products no longer have the value they once thought they had. How many former IBOs will buy standing order or attend functions? If these materials really made you nicer, or saved marriages, why don't any former IBOs keep buying them? Why do they resort to selling them for pennies on the dollar on Ebay or Craigslist? What happened to the great return policy?

Bottom line is that the tools don't work. They only work for the uplines who directly profit from the sale of tools, plus the artificial demand in product sales created by those IBOs who are convinced that Amway wil make them rich. Once the reality sets in that Amway will not make them rich, and that the tools are simply draining their resources, then the demand or tools and Amway products disappears almost instantly. There is no unbiased evidence that I know of to suggest that these tools work, and basically, the miserable amount of new diamonds emerging in the US seems to confirm this fact.

Is Lying A Required Skill To Go Diamond?

 It is my opinion that lying is a required skill in order to make it big in Amway. Before you go all crazy and disregard what I'm saying, let me explain why:

When I was an Amway IBO, diamonds told bold faced lies (I was an IBO in 1997). Back then, the internet was not nearly as accessible as it is now and looking up things was a different task than it is now with google or some other search engine. So, the WWDB diamonds stood on stage and swore that NOBODY made a cent on tools and functions. We were told that WWDB was a nonprofit organization and that any profits made were simply re-invested back into the company to reduce the cost of future events and functions (which never happened). Without easy access to information, most of the audience believed the diamonds. We had no reason to doubt because they "told us" that they had our best interests at heart.

Looking back, those lies were the tip of the iceberg. The diamonds told many lies. They more than likely lied about how much income they made from Amway and I'm certain some of them lied about paying for everything they own in cash. They lied about WWDB having a nearly nonexistent divorce rate compared to the rest of the world. I'm sure they lied about the "trappings" of wealth they claimed to have. A few diamonds in the past, had some financial problems such as home foreclosures and a prominent WWDB triple diamond filed chapter 7 bankruptcy in 2009 or so. When their financials became public record, we could see debt, unpaid taxes and other problems by people we thought were wealthy beyond our dreams. They were not.

The diamonds also taught the troops to lie and be deceptive about Amway to get people to see the plan or to entice them to sign up.  I wrote another blog post which was titled "fake it till you make it", which is about lies and deception taught by upline to help downline to recruit potential IBOs. If the diamonds lie and teach lies to promote Amway, my conclusion is that lying is required in order to succeed in Amway. Apparently, it is a trait that the diamonds I saw, possessed. Even after I quit, I heard numerous lies from IBOs denying that "Quixtar" had nothing to do with Amway, when in fact Quixtar was just a new name for Amway North America. Imagine a prospect asking someone why they were selling Amway products when Quixtar had nothing to do with Amway?

It is my conclusion that lying is indeed needed for Amway success. The better and more convincing the liar you are, the better you can recruit downline and advance in the Amway pay plan. If you don't believe me, name one person who was uber successful by being upfront and open about Amway and any related questions, such as how much they actually make in Amway and how much they make from tools. You will hear crickets more than you hear answers.

Diamonds Are Forever?

 I've seen some interesting discussion about how achieving a diamond pin is like winning a gold medal. That you don't get it taken away from you later even if you don't qualify anymore. The discussion also flowed as to where they mentioned that former US President Jimmy Carter is still addressed as Mr. President. Or that someone with a Superbowl ring can be addressed as a Superbowl champion. While I agree with that to some degree, I think the issue of diamond or former diamond is significant and different from former President Carter or a former Superbowl Champion. Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana don't parade around as if they just won the Superbowl last year.

The diamond pin is a significant achievement for sure. Seems that recently, it's even harder to achieve in North America. I don't know of more than a few new diamonds emerging in the last ten years or so in the US. But if say a diamond qualified in 1988 and never qualified again, how would you as an IBO feel about paying to see this diamond speak function after function and how many would continue to buy standing orders from a guy who may have achieved diamond 20 years ago and never again? Would the audiences be "fired up" to see these speakers? I find this ironic also, because many Amway defenders like to criticize Amway critics for having an outdated experience. Well, conversely, a one time diamond would be basically the same thing. If not then Joecool should command the respect of a 4000 PV Eagle since that was my highest level.

I actually have no issue with Amway allowing the achiever to carry their highest pin as a recognized achievement, but I do believe that those who use their former pin status to exploit and profit from new IBOs and prospects should be stopped. I know I would not have been so excited attending a function where the keynote speaker went diamond for 6 months a decade ago and was no longer qualified. Else, by upline's definition, he will teach me to go diamond and fall apart? I believe there are fewer North American diamonds now than ten years ago. Some diamonds resigned and some outright quit. So much for residual/passive income. Obviously if these things existed, then nobody would quit or walk away from residual income.

BTW, a recent article on an Amway Corporate website says this about passive income:
"Passive income is a term we do not permit distributors to use and it’s not a term the Corporation uses. In our business, there is no such thing as doing no work, and expecting money to still come in.” Link:
http://blogs.amway.com/answers/2010/11/02/unwelcome-words/#comments

Still think there's a free ride at the end of the tunnel?

The Diamond Actors?

 In my opinion, Amway diamonds are nothing more than actors, with some of them bad actors.. They portray a role and while they might be envied by their downline, when the lights are turned off, what remains? I believe most diamonds are simply middle-class, possibly upper middle-class people portraying lifestyles of the rich and famous. We could debate whether or not a diamond has an easy job. Heck, I could concede that speaking at functions can be better than a 9-5 job, but the volatility of an Amway business can make a diamond live under greater stress than someone with a regular and predictable job.

My former diamond used to live in an ordinary middle-class neighborhood and he told the group that he was buying a property in an exclusive gated community and was going to build himself a nice home. He said his home would be on a hill right above a nice beach where he could enjoy his hobby of spearfishing and the ocean. I don't know if he ever built that home but last I heard, he is living in the State of Washington. Makes me wonder why he would move there when he was allegedly building his dream home in Hawaii near one of his favorite beaches. (Maybe the cost of living is cheaper there?)

Think of the diamond this way. It is a fact that most diamonds are not Q12 (which means they have diamond qualifications for all 12 months of Amway's fiscal year). A Q12 diamond averages about $600,000 from Amway (source: Amway.com) but only a small percentage of diamonds are Q12. The other average non Q12 diamonds average about $150,000 a year and they augment that income with tools scam income. So an average diamond might make in the range of $250,000. You may think they are "rich" but after business expenses are considered, plus taxes and family medical and dental insurance, and other miscellaneous business expenses, a diamond is not financially capable of buying homes in cash, having exclusive golf club memberships and buying ferraris in cash. What is likely is that a diamond lives a middle class lifestyle while acting like they are rich. I had a conversation with a former emerald who told me that most of her emerald income (or diamond for that matter) comes in the form of an annual bonus so her monthly income was relatively small.

There might be diamonds who are wealthy. But if they truly are, it is because they are at a level higher than diamond and they are also very likely to have income from sources other than Amway. We know that back in 2009, Greg Duncan a WWDB triple diamond filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy in Montana and it is public record. He had homes foreclosed. This man stood on stage when I was an IBO and told the audience that anyone who makes a loan is "stupid". I wonder how Mr. Duncan felt when he reneged on his multiple home loans, despite having a triple diamond income from Amway of about $40,000 a month?   By the way, wouldn't most IBOs and other think a triple diamond would make much more than $40 a month?  A great income but you aren't buying mansions in cash or flying on your own private jet with that kind of income.

For these reasons, I say Amway diamonds are just actors. Some better than others, but in the end, when the lights and shut off, they are not much better off financially than someone with a good paying job. In fact, I have read in several places that truly rich people don't show off their wealth. That is food for thought isn't it?

Bad Leaders?

 Over the many years of Amway's existence, their reputation in the US and Canada has tanked. And it's not due to Amway the corporation, but rather Amway IBO leaders who teach and condone unethical behavior. Of course, I don't know of any significant measures that Amway has taken to discipline some of their wayward IBOs, but that's another story. However, it's apparent to me that some Amway leaders really are just not good people. They will do and say anything even lie to recruits to make a buck off them. They will sell false hopes and dreams to make their living.

During my blogging career, I've seen young people who were discouraged from attending college so they could build an Amway business. I've personally seen people go bankrupt and lose their homes because they followed the advice of their all knowing uplines. Sure, people have some responsibility for their actions but I feel as if some of these kinds of actions by some IBOs and IBO leaders is predatory, and focuses on people who can least afford to funnel money into the business and the leech teaching systems such as WWDB or Network 21. Downlines are taught to trust in their upline and to follow their advice, and to make it worse, the uplines then blame the IBOs for any failures.

I've seen ridiculous product claims such as people claiming that bottled water could cure ills and make you athletically superior. Of course this water costs about $50 a case when you could buy 10 cases of water at WalMart for the same price. They claim superiority in their vitamins without unbiased scientific evidence to support their claims. Perhaps that is why the Amway vitamins seemingly are consumed nearly exclusively by IBOs themselves. Nobody except IBOs buy the stories and the prices of Amway diamonds.

Despite claims by Amway supporters and IBOs that things are changing in Amway for the better, there is plenty of evidence that nothing has changed. Outrageous income claims. I thought the Dateline show exposed some crazy stuff with an IBO leader claiming that people could earn $250K per year with a part time effort, but then my friend Rocket finds this gem with an IBOAI member and crown ambassador in WWDB/Amway claiming you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month: http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2011/09/amway-guys-they-sure-say-stuff.html

I wonder if Brad Duncan himself even makes that kind of money. Ironically, his triple diamond brother (Greg) wasn't even close to that when his bankruptcy papers were exposed a few years ago.

So to Amway prospects and apologists, the Amway corporation itself may be perfectly legal and clean, but the root of many evils comes from Amway uplines and AMO leaders. It is for this very reason that many get turned off just at the mention of the Amway name. Amway can stop them, but will they?

Sponsoring New Downline?

 When I was an Amway IBO, I often found myself buying more goods than I needed because a single person simply has no practical use for 100 PV worth of Amway goods on a consistent month to month basis, save for eating double x for breakfast lunch and dinner or something like that. In general, Amway's prices are higher than many retailers, because the cost of the IBO bonus is built into the price of their goods. Probably more than 30% additional markup is needed for Amway to cover all of the IBO bonuses paid to layers upon layers of upline and downline.

Because of this "disadvantage" that IBOs have, it is a very rare IBO that is able to sell enough goods to make a retail sales income. There's some documentation that Amway sells only about 4% of their goods IBOs (Http://mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.com/2012/03/chairman-and-ceo-of-amway-have.html). This supports my claim about the prices. Because of this disadvantage, the only other way an IBO can build PV volume is to sponsor downline who will hopefully consume their 100 PV or more. You basically can't build a sustainable and profitable Amway business without downline.

But sponsoring new downline is a big problem. Most IBOs are unable to sponsor others. This is where many IBOs have become their own worst enemy. I was once tricked into attending an Amway meeting, and many others have left comments on blogs and forums expressing the same experiences. Others were outright lied to about the business or were deceived. These practices, while not employed by all IBOs, have saturated North America. It is hard to find someone in the US who has not experienced or knew of someone who had a bad experience with an Amway IBO. Because of how some groups operate, there are also allegations of cult-like behavior, and some groups greatly exaggerate the amount of upfront cash needed to register. I understand that signing up to be an IBO can be less than $100 but some groups charge $200 or more, and I saw a prospect who said a network 21 group charged over $600 to register in Amway.

You add in all these factors such as high prices and a spotty reputation and it's easy to see why IBOs cannot move volume and cannot sponsor downline. New IBOs are almost assured of this fate when they register. It is only a rare few who can overcome these major handicaps. And even those who "make it" are often unable to retain their levels for very long. Is this truly a way to generate "residual" income? I think not.

IBO Integrity?

 I used to follow the blog of a former WWDB IBO named "Shaun". He runs the blog called "Expeditions Of Truth" http://expeditionoftruths.com/ It sure looks like Shaun has quit Amway and has disappeared. His blog is no longer running, and his other twitter accounts indicate no sign of Amway.  He used to be very active and often spoke about how he was going to retire his wife.  A noble gesture and I wish him no ill will.  But it clearly illustrates how nice and hard working people can be sucked into the Amway vortex until they catch on a realize that it doesn't work as advertised.

He seemed to think that not only is he in business with people full of integrity, he also thought that he was going to retire in November 2011. Is this now July 2023? While I think doing business with people of integrity is a good thing, I also know of many successful people in business who are ruthless. So are Amway and in particular, WWDB people full of integrity or are they just as ruthless as other businesspeople? Does it matter? In my opinion, it doesn't matter except for the fact that WWDB people seem to think that they have integrity filled leaders.

Well, lets look at some of these leaders. Back in the 1990's, the current batch of WWDB leaders swore that nobody made a profit on tools. Nobody knew the truth at the time. We now know that this was a lie. Is this integrity? We know that Greg Duncan (triple diamond) was in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings. Not paying for your obligations is integrity? We know that Greg Duncan and David Shores had homes foreclosed (Public information). Is that a move filled with integrity? With the tons of money Duncan and Shores make, couldn't they have made an effort to pay off their debts?

If you look at a blog linked to this one "Rocket's Rants", there's a youtube video of "crown" Brad Duncan telling rank and file IBOs that they can make "hundreds of thousands of dollars" a month. First of all, I wonder if Brad Duncan has achieved this himself, let alone any others? Even if someone had achieved it, it would be illegal or unethical to portray that kind of success as achievable to a prospect.

Brad Wolgamott used to talk about how WWDB had a low divorce rate. Is it full on integrity for WWDB leaders to separate or divorce when they talk about integrity and how Amway and WWDB saves marriages? What about Dean Kosage? Another divorcee? Are they full of integrity?  What about Howie Danzik whose website doesn't mention that he was once married to Susan? Is it integrity to say you built the business as a single when Howie previously built the business with his former wife?  In fact I attended a Howie and Susan Danzik function.  Howie is now married to Teresa and apparently re-wrote history to exclude Susan as if she never existed.

Amway's owner Rich DeVos acknowledged that the "tools" were likely a pyramid scam and Amway did nothing after sales dropped following some attempts to clean it up. Is that an integrity move? I don't know, but it sure seems as if WWDB and Amway have issues where integrity is concerned.

The "Buy From Yourself" Nonsense?

 As an IBO, our group was often told that selling products were not that important. Just buy from yourself and get others to do the same. When prospecting, you ask if someone likes selling and if they say no, you say "great, this business is perfect for you". Or if someone says they like selling, you say "great, this business is perfect for your". Keep in mind that a business exists to sell a product or service for a profit. I believe Amway folks forget about this fact.

People naturally do not like selling stuff to people, thus the adaptation to being your own best customer or buying from your own store. While it's fine to support your own business, it is not true that a McDonald's owner would never eat at a Burger King or other sill claims. Do you believe that a McDonald's owner would only eat food sold at his own restaurant? I guarantee you that isn't true. I know someone who owns a very popular pizza franchise and she says she never eats at her own restaurant because she's sick of eating pizza. You make money selling pizza so you can have other options.

Another things that Amway IBOs are probably not aware of is that buying from yourself and getting others to do the same without real sales to actual customers is running a illegal pyramid scheme. Another MLM company Herbalife, was investigated by the FTC and while they were not shut down, they were fined and had to change their operations because the FTC found that they lacked sales to legitimate customers. Herbalife is now forced to track retail sales with a compliance monitor watching their moves. There are stories of Herbalifers trying to fudge sales and Herbalife higher ups encouraging people to sign up as preferred customers instead of business builders. That suggests to me that Herbalife is basically admitting they are a sham. If they had legitimate demand, they would run a campaign to recruit more business builders who would in turn, sell products to customers who want their products.

So Amway IBOs, are a majority of your PV sales to yourself or to customers? Are your customers your family anf friends who are somewhat reluctantly buying products from you, if at all? If you are just buying and using your own products, you are actually not entitled to an Amway performance bonus. On the bright side, it seems that Amway just ignores this requirement and pays bonuses anyway. But without legitimate demand, sales and revenues dry up when the markets begin to get saturated. Amway's sales hit a peak at 11.8 billion in 2014 and has gone into a downward spiral since. In 2016, Amway sales dropped 7% to 8.8 billion which was preceded by a dounble digit drop in 2015.

With sales and revenues down, that can only mean there are less sales and volume, therefore there are less Platinums and diamonds that can be supported. But Amway prospects will never know because once you earn diamond recognition, Amway never updates it. Once a diamond, always a diamond, if you will. Thus the leaders that are Bing worshipped on stage might not even be diamonds anymore.

In the end, I write this post to give you food for thought. Too many prospects and IBOs are not aware of these issues but they certainly should be,

Joecool Is Cruising?

Joecool is going on a European cruise this week so I'll be gone for at least a week before any new articles will be posted.  In the meantime, enjoy this reprinted article I posted in 2013:

 When I was an IBO, I often found myself buying more goods than I needed because a single person simply has no use for 100 PV worth of Amway goods on a consistent month to month basis, save for eating double x for breakfast or something. In general, Amway's prices are higher than many retailers, because the cost of the IBO bonus is built into the price of their goods. Probably more than 30% additional markup is needed for Amway to cover all of the IBO bonuses paid to layers upon layers of upline and downline.

Because of this "disadvantage" that IBOs have, it is a very rare IBO that is able to sell enough goods to make an income. There's some documentation that Amway sells only about 4% of their goods IBOs(Http://mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.com/2012/03/chairman-and-ceo-of-amway-have.html). This supports my claim about the prices. Because of this disadvantage, the only other way an IBO can build PV volume is to sponsor downline who will hopefully consume their 100 PV or more. You basically can't build a sustainable and profitable Amway business without downline.

But sponsoring is a big problem. Most IBOs are unable to sponsor others. This is where many IBOs have become their own worst enemy. I was once tricked into attending an Amway meeting, and many many others have left comments on blogs expressing the same experiences. Other were outright lied to about the business or were deceived. These practices, while not employed by all IBOs, have saturated North America. It is hard ti find someone in the US who has not experienced or knew of someone who had a bad experience with an Amway IBO. Because of how some groups operate, there are also allegations of cult-like behavior, and some groups greatly exaggerate the amount of upfront cash needed to register. I understand that signing up to be an IBO can be less than $100 but some groups charge $200 or more, and I saw a prospect who said a network 21 group charged over $600 to register in Amway.

You add in all these factors such as high prices and a spotty reputation and it's easy to see why IBOs cannot move volume and cannot sponsor downline. New IBOs are almost assured of this fate when they register. It is only a rare few who can overcome these major handicaps. And even those who "make it" are often unable to retain their levels for very long. Is this truly a way to generate "residual" income? I think not.

Debating A Zombie IBO?

  I apologize for the length of this post but it's actually quite humorous and I will also post the link in case you wish to follow along or perhaps leave your own comments. The classic Amway defense is used here, including unsubstantiated income and lifestyle claims. He also calls me a liar but never identifies what I'm supposedly lying about.  It's a bit dated, but I call it an oldie but goodie!  Enjoy!

https://amthrax.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/penn-and-tellers-verdic-on-mlms-bs/#comment-48347

Malachy:

“, FAILED system”?? Yeah. Right. 8 billion annually no sticks no dent. 60 merchant partners and double digits growth in North America these past 2 years.
(Oh yeah. And #1 selling nutritional supplier world wide. Aha. )


Joecool

8 billion annually. Down more than 25% from 2013 when Amway did 11.8 billion. No debt? How do you know Amway has no debt? That’s an old talking point that was proven wrong in the past if you know how to use google. And #1 selling nutritional supplier worldwide is a HUGE lie.
The #1 selling nutritional supplier in the world is Nestle. In he Americas alone they exceed 40 billion. You are just repeating lies that uplines tells without verifying for yourself. More than likely you are repeating income claim lies from upline as well.
Nestle: https://www.nestle.com/investors/annual-report

Malachy:

Nobody went black or lost their homes BECAUSE OF AMWAY. (Gee by your logic maybe Greg (Duncan) couldn’t afford the tapes books & travel to all those functions?
Dude Matt (Tsuruda)was making $90,000 a month as an EDC.
He probably makes 4-5 times that now

Joecool

It’s not how much you make, but what you do with it. $40K per month and (Greg Duncan) winds up bankrupt?

Malachy:

FYI there are 3500 college players who graduate or declare for the draft before they graduate. Know how many are drafted in the entire NFL? 254. That means there’s only a 7% chance of getting drafted
Then there’s several walk ons who are undrafted who show up to training camp. Then you have OTA, mono camp, training camp, and preseason in which 90 or so men all hope to make the roster (of which there are really less than 50 possible openings in a maximum 53 man roster (a half a dozen maybe ten or so of which are already taken by the superstars like Tom Brady or Beckam or Gronk.

So it’s about a 3% chance of even MAKING a roster, and that doesn’t guarantee the big money but only minimum scale if you’re on the practice squad.

Then there’s the chance of getting injured ending a season (or a carreer)
Average length of an NFL carreer? Less than 7 years.

And how much money do you make after you leave, quit, get cut, or injured out of the NFL?
Zero (except maybe some pension depending on how long you played & what money you made. )
Tracey Eaton had to play a preseason game with a flu & high fever, just to prove himself make the team. At Arizona.
Know what happened after he left the NFL with $300,000 on the bank & had to try & make it as a stock broker?
He ended up $400,000 in debt & had to sell his house!
Thank God Wolgamott came along & he asked Wolgamott how he managed to sleep in every day & be rich.

Now they are free as diamonds & have a beautiful high rise condo in Seattle and paid Cash for a second home on the river.
Eaton makes more money than he ever made in the NFL & is not subject to injuries, age, or roster cuts
Yeah we know all about the odds.

(Then there’s also Superbowl champion Tim Foley in Miami, Hal Greer from the NBA and numerous other world class championship athletes who make their living from amway or endorse the nutrilite Brand. (see Kurt Warner- another walk on who had what it takes in character & went from walk on back up quarterback to Superbowl champion. Yeah. He believes in nutrilite & amway)
Not everybody who plays the game is a winner or a champion. Only those who got what it takes (which obviously you didn’t!)

Joecool
July 30, 2018 10:00 am
7% is a whole lot more success than Amway IBOs. A platinum is allegedly where you start to break even more make a small profit, depending on your commitment to the system. A platinum is already in the top fraction of 1% of IBOs. What serious business owner prospect would want to join and opportunity where the likelihood of success is so low?
Arena football players know the deal before they sign up. They are signing up because someone told them about residual income for life if they play arena football.

Again, how do you know what Tracy Eaton makes? Did you show you his financials? You have no idea but you keep making those kinds of claims. All you are saying is that he lacks integrity and is able to sell people on lies to make his living. 2-5 years, walking the beaches is a lie. One that has serious consequences for many who get involved.


Malachy:

woww. Once again you demonstrated a difficulty understanding (or paying attention to) what people actually say.
If 7 % get drafted that doesn’t necessarily mean they will make the roster by end of preseason and if they do make the roster half of them will NEVER make a million a year

Many have ENDED up broke after being retired (average carreer is less than 7 years and they don’t pay you or even guarantee your salary if you’re not playing. Many get injured and most contracts have team friendly incentives that only pay based on how many snaps you play in the year.)

Tracey Eaton lasted a handful of years after busting his @$$ to make the team during preseason only to end up broke & having to sell his house after retirement. None of hos NFL income was secure or willable to his children

Now he makes more than he did in the NFL and it’s all willable to his children and most of it is passive ongoing income streams.

He paid Cash for his second home. (did you?

Joecool

I understand completely. But anyone who gets drafted receives at least a signing bonus of about $100k or more, even if they fail to make the team.

Most Amway IBOs make nothing and if they attend functions, almost all of them LOSE MONEY.
Tracy Eaton can tell you he paid cash for his home. I paid cash for my home. See how that works? Talk is cheap. Greg Duncan also said she paid cash for his homes. Then we see foreclosures. Guess what? Homes that are paid for can’t get foreclosed.

“None of his NFL income was secure or will-able to his children” Total bullshit. All of his guaranteed income could have been secured and will-able to his children.

You know why Amway diamonds might quit or resign but they never “walk away? They have to keep working the business. Most Amway IBOs do little or nothing and quit. If you stop building your Amway business, people will continue to do little or nothing and quit. You cannot build a sustainable income where the attrition rate is so high unless you are constantly working it. The never quit that upline teaches applies to the upline as well. If they quit, their business will fall apart faster than a cheap Amway suit.

Malachy:

Name one example of an NFL contract which says they continue to get their bloated salary after they’re no longer able to play?
No such thing! It’s all based 100% on their own ability.
Amway isn’t based on ability. It’s based off an asset which continues to generate revenue and therefore earnings for you or your beneficiaries
Ever hear of an “integrated Diamond”?
(Oh. I’m sorry. So now Georgia Lee (Puryear) no longer gets any income since Ron died? )
Better tell Jim to go get a job ha.

Joecool

So why don”t diamonds walk away and retire? Because their business will crumble apart once they stop working. In Amway, you need the ability to recruit and lie to recruits so they will sign up and buy Amway stuff and tools and functions.
I don’t know. Georgia Lee didn’t show me (or you) her financials so I don’t (and you don’t) know what or if she’s still making money from Amway.
You do know that Amway diamonds invest in other things besides Amway right?

Malachy:

I’ve never been lied to by anyone in the Amway company or WWDb. You on the other hand lie all the time & make up stuff to support your excuses why you quit. LOSERS do that & we don’t do that in our family.

Joecool:

What have I lied about? I share my personal experience. Whether you like it or not is another story but these are not lies.

You make up all kinds of stuff. You quote income from people you don’t know. You pretend to know how much income and expenses the diamonds have. The truth is you don’t know.
You bought into the lie that buying from yourself can turn into profits.
You still haven’t answered why not a single diamond walked away to enjoy residual income. Instead, they are on the job until they pass away. That’s not freedom.

Transparency?

 Apparently, Joecool has a new fan. A WWDB IBO who runs the blog called "Transparency Of A Dreamer". http://transparencyofadreamer.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/transparency-how-do-you-filter-online-information/

This blog is run by Cameron, who is apparently a WWDB IBO. I used to follow a blog called WWDB Expeditions Of Truth authored by Shaun Guthrie. Both apparently hail from Canada. What I find humorous is how Cameron uses the word "transparency" in his blog title. Cameron, like Shaun, does not allow comments on his blog. I find it odd how pro-Amway blogs often do not allow comments unless they are positive about Amway. What are they afraid of? Hmm.

Cameron says on his blog:

Dream Builder training and mentorship system while being “transparent” in my success’ but MOST IMPORTANTLY my non-success. As a dreamer I identify myself as wanting and desiring more for myself, my family, my friends and my associates. Thus – Transparency of a Dreamer.

When I chose the name of this blog I chose it because I felt that there was a lack of integrity and transparency in how information / experience was shared.

My question to Cameron is why doesn't he allow comments, or transparency on his own blog?

He openly criticizes me because he feels I have some hatred towards Amway and WWDB. That is not true. I don't hate anyone. My blog is about my experiences in Amway and WWDB and some of the bad practices that WWDB leaders employed. Based on my observations of Shaun Guthrie's blog, I can say some of the same practices I saw over ten years ago still happen now. Shaun's blog is now gone (because he quit??) but he spoke of getting out of debt (which is good) but he did so by selling his home and cashing out his 401K. He spoke of buying homes in cash, and abut a 2% divorce rate in Amway/WWDB which is a dicey claim at best. I often hear how Amway/WWDB has changed but here we have the same leaders teaching the same stuff. What exactly has changed? I might add that WWDB leaders in my day LIED and said nobody made a profit from tools. Now that the lie has been exposed, they admit profit is made on tools but none of the liars were ever held accountable.

Let's examine Cameron's business:

Business Level: Founders Belivers Pin almost 2 years straight + additional consecutive months to today’s date (Mar – Apr 2014 as of this post)
Highest PV Bonus Bracket: 9% BV over our organization + Retail / Personal Use Volume.
Personal Width: 1
Depth: 2 wide on one sponsored leg.

Cameron is around the 6 to 9% bonus bracket. With his premiere membership and assuming he attends functions, he is LOSING MONEY! 6-9% will pay you around $100 a month (gross) which will leave you at a loss when factoring in business expenses. That doesn't account for time spent in the endeavor. Cameron says he is not in debt, but he doesn't mention that he profits from Amway. Most likely because his job covers his Amway/WWDB losses.

For the record, I did as an IBO, witness WWDB leaders offer advice such as having your family skip a meal to buy another tape/cd, or quitting your job to attend a function, after all, you can just get another job. You can skip paying your mortgage for about 3 months before the mortgage company forecloses (so you can attend a WWDB function). Greg Duncan taught us how stupid it was to take out loans (can you say hypocrite). I wonder if Mr. Duncan paid off all of his loans yet? LOL Brad Wolgamott taught about the 2% divorce rate (can you say hypocrite?).

Cameron then tries to discredit me by linking to David Steadson's blog. (Steadson aka IBOFightback). Steadson has already been discredited as a liar and referred to as a a cyber bully by Beth Dornan, who ran an Amway corporate blog.

http://blogs.amway.com/amwayinsider/2008/01/15/cyber-bullies-not-welcome-here/

As those who frequent the Opportunity Zone know, our conversations here are governed by a philosophy we call "civil discourse."

Civil discourse means we agree to disagree, but not to be disagreeable. In other words, I accept your right to have an opinion that differs from my own and ask that you do the same. In a word, it means respect. Bullies aren't allowed.
I was disturbed to read that someone who has been critical of this business has been harassed and disparaging information about him posted by a cyber bully.

Steadson, aka IBOFightback is the ONLY ONE who wrote disparaging articles about Amway critics.

Cameron then criticizes the fact that I occasionally use profanity on my blog. I have and I allow some of it. But nobody gets a handful of dirt in their face without dishing it out first. I've been threatened and had IBO's slander and libel my name. That is why I use the pseudo name "Joecool", to protect my true identity.

Why does Amway and WWDB continue to receive criticism? It's not because of Joecool or any other Amway critic. Amway and WWDB receives criticism because of the actions and behaviors of their IBO's. People are still lied to and tricked into meetings. People still overstate the income and effort needed to build Amway. People give the best case scenario without informing prospects of the typical IBO's experiences. The internet is still loaded with legitimate complaints about Amway and WWDB and their only response is to attack the critic rather than fixing the problems that leads to the criticism.

Good luck Cameron, I know you've been reading this blog. You've been an IBO 3 years and you have one leg with a few more downline. A WWDB leader once said insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Were you shown a 2-5 year plan? Maybe it's time for you to sit down and come to grips with Amway and WWDB yourself. I truly hope you won't quit and take your blog down like all other WWDB IBO's I've encountered.

The Amway Warrior?

 I received this comment by a fired-up Amway and WWDB IBO some years ago. I think re-posting it now will be quite humorous. It might in interesting to note that I took "Bryant" up on his offer and friended him on facebook. After a week or two, he stopped responding to my comments and questions and a few months later, he unfriended me on facebook and apparently quit Amway. When I looked him up, he was not posting Amway stuff anymore and just reverted back to his "quitter" or Broke loser" lifestyle.  I am posting it for your reading enjoyment. BTW, I was downline of the infamous WWDB Duncans as an IBO. I wonder if Greg Duncan recovered from his chapter 7 bankruptcy in 2009?

Bryant Xxxxxx July 31, 2015 at 4:29 AM

Dear Joe,

First, wow do you sound like a quitter; have you ever dedicated yourself to anything? Sorry that was an attack at you, I’m new to WWDB, and I enjoyed reading your quitting words and how you inspired more quitters to quit. I personally have researched WWDB before I came to the WWDB group because I seriously thought it was Amway and I’ve been approached 5x by Amway. Guess being a cage fighter gives me a great personality.

I would also like to call you out on your line ups since I know the Duncan’s beside their children could never possible be your uplines. Brad is very selective on who he mentors and it is usually the non-quitters that he mentor, the diamonds and emeralds, My upline Fenton and Susie Eng are mentored directly by Brad and Julie.

Before I was a Dream Builder, I was chasing the money; I sold drugs, damn right, just like the cartel blood that flows thru my veins. I was proud to be a drug dealer, finally I was a cool person, and then I woke up and realized ever one fronts that they have money but no one really knows how to get it. I held a regular job, sold drugs and trained every day to fight in a cage. Wow my life was in utter chaos, then my best friend asked me to meet her sponsor and mentor, Jerry Liu and Fenton Eng (emerald mentor) so with one foot out of the door and my right ass check of the chair ready to bolt, I sat down and meet them. First there was never any offer made in fact I had an application process to go thru and win my mentorship which I am so glad and happy I fought for it. I guess we all come from different paths and what im really trying to say is I would love to sit down and speak to you face to face and prove that your wrong about world wide dream builder, I haven’t paid out a single cent and I’ve so far been receiving the Kate messages for free and haven’t need to buy a single thing, yes I will because that apart of this program.

Did you expect money to fall from the sky? If you would have listened to your mentor, you would have learned one of the key parts to this entire program. Without HARDWORK you get nothing. Hard work is the key that slipped past you obviously! I have permanently been changed by the world wide group and will defend WWDB with my dying breath that’s what it means to not quit and not give in. I would love you to meet ALL of Fentons teams, Las Vegas and Atlanta and Bellingham Washington. Everyone of them would look at you and shake their heads, you were in and I don’t understand how you could leave. Unless…wait for it….. you’re a quitter. Hmm I was tired of being a loser and a quitter to now I am a worldwide dream builder for life! Plus the Family Reunion blew my mind thank God I’m willing to sacrifice for my future, unlike some cooljoe who wrote this blog.
With love because we all make mistakes,

Bryant Xxxxxx find me on facebook I dare you!

The Same Old Amway?

 A friend of mine and former downline (when I was an IBO) told me that his daughter recently joined Amway and WWDB. Despite his warnings and objections, she joined anyway, and insists that things are different in Amway today. That gave me some food for thought. What is different between Amway of today and the Amway I was in? The products are basically the same, perhaps with some new packaging. The concepts are the same. Buy your own stuff and try to get others to do the same. And recruit like crazy. That part of the business hasn't changed at all.

But what also hasn't changed is the same old Amway reputation that hinders the ability to sell products and/or to recruit others and to show the plan. Seems as if people joining and quitting without doing much is still the same. There is still an emphasis of the consumption of tools and functions by the rank-and-file IBOs, and why not? The diamonds make nice profits from the sale of business support materials and unlike the Amway compensation plan, the rank-and-file IBOs get no compensation for the tools.

It sure seems as if the same old - old diamonds are around. The Duncans, Leslie Wolgamott (Divorced from Brad - WWDB saves marriages?). Harimoto, Tsuruda, Danzik. Where are the new diamonds? It might also be significant to note that Amway revenues have declined significantly from 11.8 billion in 2013 to less than that now, as far as I know.  Amway has not fully recovered.  And that's despite Amazon and some other online retailers making a fortune during covid 19.  Perhaps people are seeing Amway for what it is? A poor business opportunity where your chance of failure is nearly 100%. And it's not because of a lack of effort or motivation. The Amway system is just set up for failure.  A typical platinum business usually consist of 100 or more IBOs, and there is one platinum.   That's about 1% but actually it's less when you factor in attrition.

A quick look at the common 6-4-2 plan is 79 IBOs. One platinum and a whole bunch who aren't. And this plan doesn't factor in that many people join and quit without doing much of anything. Thus, there can only mathematically be a small fraction of 1% who make anything with a whole bunch of wannabes who never make it. And that is what Amway is. The same old sorry ass Amway opportunity where the diamonds sell you false hopes and dreams while their dreams come true from your tools and function purchases.

What Is A Double Eagle Ruby?

 In a previous post titled "Fired Up IBO Ends Up Quitting", this IBO was harping about becoming a double eagle ruby and being financially free and retired from his job at a very young age.  But you might be wondering what in the world is a double eagle ruby?

Well, a Ruby distributor is basically a platinum that runs twice as much volume, or 15,000 PV per month.  That ruby would have to move about $45,000 worth of good in a month to reach 15,000 PV per month.  

Now what is the eagle/double eagle business model?   In a nutshell, it's a made-up ranking system made up by World Wide Dream Builders, or WWDB aka Worldwide group.  I'll break it down for you but the eagle or double eagle program was designed to ensure that plenty of tools run through your Amway business so that your upline diamond can rake it in.  It has no relationship to the IBO's and their downline in terms of profitability because a ruby level IBO would make very minimal kickbacks from the volume of tools and functions that move through their business.   The latest information I had was that a ruby or platinum IBO earns only a very small percentage of profits from audio related tools such as standing orders. They do not share in the lucrative business of selling voicemail, or functions and meetings.

Additionally, a double eagle ruby would move 500 PV personal volume for a couple, and 300 PV for a single.  (How in the world can a single person use 300 PV?).  Also, a double eagle ruby would have 12 downline (downline are called "legs" in Amway) moving 100 PV or more, and at least 10 of those downline on standing orders, and at least 6 of those downlines attending "major" functions.  Major functions is where the diamonds make major profits.  Thus a double eagle ruby as a single for example, would be expending nearly $1000 a month just to meet the PV requirements.  The double eagle ruby would get a few dollars kickback for his downline on standing order but the diamond would rake in the lion's share.  And the double eagle gets nothing for the downline attending major functions.  Also, a double eagle ruby would be expected to be on standing order themselves, as well as attending all functions.  

If you were to break down in math, the amount it would cost to be a double eagle ruby, you'd see that much of the profits a double eagle ruby makes would be taken by upline by PV volume and tool and function participation.   Perhaps I will break down this process with the math in a future post.  

Now a regular "eagle", which Joecool was at one time, consists of the following:  300 PV personal use for couples and 200 PV for singles.  6 legs moving 100 PV or more, 5 legs on standing order, and 3 legs attending major functions.   Now I can tell you that as a former "eagle" myself, I was running about 4000 PV monthly, which brought me a gross profit of approximately $1000 monthly.  Sounds great right?  But as a single, 200 PV in personal use (at the time) cost around $500 a month.  Add in the expense of my standing order, book of the month, voicemail and functions and other meetings and business expenses and I was losing money.  I should add that I live in Hawaii and some "major" functions took place on the mainland US which required air travel, hotel and rental car expenses.  

Thus being an eagle or double eagle is just a title with no assurance of any kind of profit.  Your dedication to the tools and functions could have resulted in even greater losses than I have described here.  Reducing your dedication to the tools and functions may have resulted in better profits, but more than likely would have resulted in being shunned by your upline diamond, which really meant you had no choice but to be "gung ho" about participating in the tools and functions without question.

 

Fired Up IBO Winds Up Quitting?

This article is a reprint of an article originally published by me in 2016.  It is from a former Amway IBO who was fired up and later quit.  To be fair, I have no hard feelings towards this individual and wish him and his family the best.  He was likely motivated and hard working, but may have been misled into believing that Amway was the best path to success, but when you read the verbiage, you can really see the mindset and how these new IBOs think, especially if they have achieved even a small amount of what upline leader might define as success:

Check out this blog post from 2010 from an Amway and WWDB IBO. He is talking about retiring and now it is almost the year 2016. This IBO (Shaun Guthrie) ran a blog called WWDB Expeditions Of Truth, which is now defunct and apparently, Shaun is no longer an IBO. I would assume that he quit and failed. I can still see his twitter account and there's no mention about Amway or residual income and retiring in another year. I do wish him well in his endeavors and hope that he des achieve his dreams, but also knowing that it wasn't going to happen using Amway as a vehicle. This article is a message written by Shaun in 2010 and you can see some pretty big claims. Read on.............

"Well we are coming up to Free Enterprise Day’s in Portland this weekend and with that I’ve come up to my one year anniversary. I’ve also passed the one year anniversary of this blog and where I started out with it. I started it while being a guest at Free Enterprise Day’s supporting Lindsay (wife) in what I had originally thought was something completely stupid, something illegal, something that was going to drive a wedge between us and our marriage. Turns out it was quite the opposite.

There is nothing wrong with a healthy skepticism and boy did I have a lot of “healthy” skepticism. After spending 5 months of doing some actual research, checking out the Amway site, Better Business Bureau, Checking the history of the company, Industry Canada, and yeah even checking out all the negative blogs out there, I came to the conclusion there was nothing wrong with this business and what it stood for. One of the biggest things that really drew me to business was the environmental stewardship this company stood on and I thought I could get behind that and have no problems promoting those great products. It was however the World Wide Dreambuilders that really intrigued me and instead of driving a wedge between our marriage it has helped solidify it even stronger than it was last year. How the heck could a business do that? Cause it’s founded on good core traditional values such as marriage, relationships, personal growth and living debt free. Not bad values if I do say so.

So I say one year because it’s one year when I joined my wife and we became united together and made a decision together to actually build this. Since then we’ve achieved some great milestones and have had some set backs, as with anything in life. We’ve been able to kill off a HUGE amount of consumer debt that we would have still had to this day if it were not for the great coaches, mentors we have. We’ve been able to ride the example our coaches have set out and we are pretty much right on track with where they are and that’s just the power of duplication. I’ve retired my wife so that she never has to give her 1st best to another man ever again. We will be able to raise our kids never having to know what a daycare or day home looks like. Not to offend anyone however that’s not how we want to raise our kids, we’d much rather instill our own values and be there every step of the way.

Looking forward to the future we are pumped to hit Double Eagle Ruby late next year at which time I’ll be stepping away from my job so that I never have to work for another man’s dream and give my 1st best to them. I know that we will work hard at this so that my kids will always have me at home when they need me and not have to wait for me to come home from work. I look forward to the days that we can take our kids out to the ski hill during the week day and not the weekend when it’s jam packed. I look forward to seeing my parents with the kids anytime we want instead of a set amount of vacation time or trying to stretch out a long weekend. There are so many things we look forward to in our second year in business and we know because of the great examples before us we will actually achieve them.

Now please don’t misunderstand me, these are our goals and things we want to achieve. I’m in no way saying you have to build this business. I’ve chosen this vehicle to obtain our goals and the vision we have set out for our family. You don’t have to agree with me and that’s perfectly fine. I only hope that you have a vehicle out there that will allow you to 100% achieve whatever it is you have set out for you and your family.

Here’s to year #2!"

Level Playing Field?

 The Amway business is a level playing field. At least that's what my upline told us when I was an IBO. That everyone starts at zero. While that is somewhat true, there were other factors that existed, that most IBOs did not know about. That factor is the possibility of PV manipulation. I believe that groups that are not on direct fulfillment (Groups still calling in and picking up) are able to transfer PV around. Thus, certain groups or favored downline could be manufactured into higher pins. I believe most groups are currently on direct fulfillment, but I did confirm about less than a year ago that some groups still are on call in and pick up.

But let's examine the concept that everyone starts at zero. While this aspect may be true, certain people are simply better at selling, or better and more adept at socializing and talking to others. So while your PV count may be zero, the skills needed to start and run a business is not a level playing field for most. I believe uplines state this to give prospects the idea that everyone has an equal chance at succeeding in Amway. I just cannot believe this to be true. Even current diamonds, while having achieved a certain level, probably could not "start at zero" again and build a diamond business.

Thus, when you really think about it, the "old timers" of the diamonds should actually be given less credibility than the newer ones. Do you really believe that a diamond or higher pin who built his business in the 1970's can really teach people in 2016 how to build the business in a way to address people in 2016, and the fact that the business is mostly internet based as opposed to the old days, not to mention the advance of social media, text messaging and other modern forms of communication.

It is easy to stand on stage, tell people how great you are, show off material wealth and then tell prospects that everyone starts at zero and that anyone can build the business. I do not believe that it is true. I also strongly suspect that very few (if any) of the current diamonds would be able to "start at zero" and build a new diamond ship here in the US, where the reputation and shrinking sales would be handicaps too great to overcome for the vast majority of prospective IBOs. I recall back in 2005 or 2006, WWDB had a commitment for personal growth amongst the diamonds and above. I do not believe much fruit was grown out of that effort. The diamonds had committed to duplicating their groups to prove it could be done. Not a single one of them, as far as I know, advanced to a significantly higher level (i.e. diamond to double diamond).

Lastly, to be able to profit from selling tools, regardless of the outcomes for downline, is an advantage that most IBOs are unaware of, and unable to participate in.  That alone makes for a uneven playing field for downline IBOs.  The diamonds therefore, are able to promote Amway as "easy" or "simple" or that anyone can make it.  Basically the diamonds can say almost anything they want to hook IBOs into the system.  Whether they fail or not is of no consequence to the diamond as they have already made their profits from meetings, functions and other support materials.  The level playing field is a myth to make prospects think that have a real chance of success when they really don't.