Thursday, August 31, 2023

The Amway Phenomena?

 http://scamadvocates.com/164-Amway.html


"""I have read all of these posts. Interesting that everyone who supports Amway cannot spell very well. Lots of typos and grammatical errors in here by those who jump up and down reciting Amway's many virtues. It is a scam and a groupthink phenomenon of staggering proportions. From a psychological perspective, Amway does its best to separate people from those who would challenge its legitimacy and operations. This is not unlike how Hitler or any other leader would silence opponents or dissidents by having them "removed" from the equation. Same thing goes here, Amway teaches people to ignore and remove obstacles and people who challenge the system, even if said challenges are completely rational and offered by people with the IBO's best interest in mind. It hits IBO's in soft spots for family, friends, and freedom (the 3 F's), and it entices them to focus on emotional reasoning rather than very cognitive-based, rational dissection of information.

Amway IBO's are taught emotionalism, not rationalism. From a business perspective, it is a farce. IBO's are no entrepreneurs, as they wear the collars of their uplines. Over and over, I have been told to do as my uplines say. What if my upline is a total moron and I have a law degree and an MBA?? I'm supposed to follow these uplines?? According to the system, yes, the uplines' words are paramount. So no, IBO's are not entrepreneurs and do not gain any real experience. IBO is a fancy name for distributor, pure and simple.

I had the opportunity to meet a number of "diamonds" and "emeralds" recently, all of whom had either left the business to get real jobs or were still struggling bringing in about $30,000 per year. Many of them are posting massive losses, and by the way, the IRS does not consider pro-suming OR tickets to a convention (to hear Yager scream at you) to be business expenses. Good luck trying to recover those losses. It is a pyramid scheme simply because mathematically and considering the law of averages, a downline cannot really earn more than his upline. It just doesn't happen - it's a nice idea, but it doesn't happen. I worked through multiple scenarios with a friend, trying to see how I could out-earn my upline, and we found several variables that would keep that from happening.

Finally, on a personal level, this Amway monkey business cost me a great friendship, an IBO who decided that taking a chance on some crazy dream was more important than those who loved him most. I think he will continue prospecting and pushing "the plan" until there isn't anyone left. If you know someone in Amway or who is thinking seriously about it, you need to realize that they will soon be lost. Amway people are very much like crack users (very similar psychopathology, actually), and they will choose Amway over you, their family, their friends, and anything that gets in the way."""

Wednesday, August 30, 2023

If The Amway Products Are So Good?

 Many IBOs and Amway defenders claim that Amway products are simply the "best". Some even go so far as to call Amway product superior to big box retailer's products. In the past, some unbiased reviews (including consumer reports) of Amway products compared to name brand had some Amway goods rated as average, some were very expensive, and some were satisfactory. Of course, quality is subjective, and it certainly seems that whether or not one is an IBO determines that quality.

I get a kick out of IBOs desperately trying to compare prices with WalMart or other big-name retailers.  Then when you can show that the retailers actually offer a better deal, then the back peddling and justifications kick in.  Such as how Amway has superior quality or are considered premium brands.  Of course, to make that assertion, some IBOs use ridiculous justifications.  If this were true, Amway sales would be rivaling the big retailers, but they aren't.  In fact, companies like Amazon, Walmart and some others had their sales go through the roof during covid 19 because people did more online shopping, and for a host of other reasons. 

But here's the definitive question. If Amway products are so good, why do former IBOs rarely continue to buy them? I mean Amway sales would continue to climb steadily each year if former IBOs kept buying products. And here's another angle on all of this. If some former IBOs do purchase Amway goods, I would bet that they do not purchase 100 PV or more each month as they do when they are active business building IBOs. It would appear that uplines are able to manipulate or create an artificial demand for Amway products among the active IBOs. This is a point of contention between Amway defenders and Amway critics because an artificial demand toes the line on legality issues.

There are likely tens of millions (or more) of former IBOs. There are probably less than 200 qualified diamonds in the US. I believe there are more lottery winners than qualified diamonds. But if there are tens of millions of former IBOs and hundreds of thousands of current IBOs why aren't the Amway sales consistently growing? I believe it's because Amway IBOs are the primary consumers of Amway products and former IBOs are not. And because information is easily available on the internet, prospects who are approached an easily google up Joecool's blog or other sites full of information and make an informed decision. I believe that is partly why sales are down, because recruitment and sponsoring of new IBOs is down.

So if Amway products have such great value, why don't most former IBOs continue to purchase them?  Because if there were true product loyalty because of quality and value, Amway sales would continue to rise, regardless of IBO retention, wouldn't it?

Tuesday, August 29, 2023

The Real Pitch?

 Many people have experienced some kind of pitch by an Amway IBO. My first Amway pitch was an invitation to a beer bust while I was in college. I arrived at the meeting expecting beer and pizza only to see people in suits giving a presentation. They spoke about how you could generate income by eliminating the middleman from product distribution. Creating efficiencies was a way to generate money and Amway was it. On the surface, it can seem as if everything the speaker said made sense, although real life practice doesn't bear it out.

Sell and use consumables. Consumables need to be re-purchased so obviously it is a good way to run a small business. What wasn't discussed was the higher prices of the products. What many people do not see is that Amway's generous bonuses have to be built into the price of the products. For this reason, Amway cannot compete with big retailers who don't have to add salespeople bonuses into their prices.

But if you look beyond all of this and still think Amway is a good opportunity, then the real Amway pitch comes in. People get excited about working part time, 2-5 years to earn will able and residual income which will allow someone to retire early and leave a legacy to future generations. This is the point where the Amway presenter makes the pitch about people needing training.

You need tools. After all, a carpenter can't build a house without tools, right? So many people who think Amway will make them rich, start to invest in their "tools". Sure, the Amway functions and some other materials can make you feel good or motivated, but in the end, the tools are supposed to help you generate sales and to increase your business revenue. What goes unnoticed in many cases is that the Amway tools are the reason for an IBO's net losses. The upline will justify this by telling stories about how success is right around the corner or that you should never quit, and you will eventually make it.

All of this rhetoric from Upline is nice, but people who don't quit have no assurance of making it. Look at the fruit on the tree.  My former LOS, WWDB, I believe has fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO 20 years ago. My former sponsor is still active in Amway after 25 years and he's not even a platinum. You don't see many new diamonds except for in foreign countries. To me, this is evidence that Amway is saturated and there is little chance of future success. This is why there are mostly tired old diamonds working until they pass away. If the diamonds were so "awesome", why aren't all of their kids and close friends also in diamond club?

The answer is that the Amway pitch can sound good, but it doesn't work. From 2013 to now, Amway revenues are down abot 25%. From a peak of 11.8 billion in 2013 to 8.6 billion in 2017. I believe Amway is a sinking ship. Beware of the Amway pitch,

Monday, August 28, 2023

The Road To Disaster?

 When I saw the Amway plan, it was presented sort of as a road to riches. Yes, the presenter was careful not to say it was "get rich quick", but 2-5 years is relatively quick when compared with working 40 hours a week for 40 years as the business plan was shown to us. And while some exceptional people do achieve diamond, there is a massive trail of IBOs who suffer losses, some of them staggering. In our own group, I know of at least one couple who lost their home following upline advice, and another couple to ended up filing for chapter 7 bankruptcy. I must state that the bad advice leading to bankruptcy and foreclosure most likely came from upline leaders. I also know of a gal who quit her job to attend a function, faithfully following upline advice from WWDB. It took her a while to recover from that bad advice. 

So what is the experience of many CORE IBOs? I'm not talking about those who "do nothing", but IBOs who actually make an effort. Well, if they do their 100 PV, then they are spending about $300 a month on Amway stuff and dedicated IBOs will typically spend about $200 a month or more on average for tools. This is for a single person. A couple or family would be expected to do more, thus spend more. So, for these 100 PV IBOs, they will expend about $500 a month or more and get back maybe $10. Of course, if they were not in Amway, they would still have some expenses for household goods, but not anywhere near $500 a month. 

Over the course of a few years, these expenses add up and can become staggering losses. Hard core IBOs might expend even more. The only way a rank-and-file IBO can gain relief is to sell products (which is difficult given the prices and the Amway name reputation) or to sponsor downline who wil then suffer some of the losses for you. It would be my estimate that an IBO might break even at about the 4000 PV level. However, at 4000 PV, you might have significant expenses associated with running a group, such as showing distance plans for your group.  

Over the years, I would suspect that millions of IBOs have come and gone through the Amway opportunity, and probably lost billions of dollars. But many of those who lose money think they are successful, because many upline will edify those who buy tools, regardless of IBO results. After a few months, if your group and PV are not growing consistently, it is highly unlikely that you are headed for success. 

IBOs and newbies, are you on the road to riches or financial disaster? Keep in mind that a net loss is not success, despite what you upline mentor may tell you.

Sunday, August 27, 2023

None Of Your Business?

 One of the things I heard as an IBO, and still witness today, is IBOs telling prospects that their income is none of your business. That you can refer to the compensation plan and see that you are compensated for volume. That your effort will yield different results than their efforts. All I can say is what a load of baloney. If you are researching the Amway business opportunity and the person contacting you won't disclose financial details of their business, red flags should pop up all over the place. Sure, if your potential sponsor is new, they may not have much to share, but are they willing to share or claim that it's a trade secret?

Remember that your sponsor will receive a financial benefit from your purchases and/or sales for the life of his/hers and your business. Volume that you move, plus your downline volume will be a part of your sponsor's and upline's volume. For that kind of reward, you'd think that people would be open to sharing. Now I'm not suggesting you ask to see the sponsor's personal job income, but surely, you'd want to know what kind of time, effort and expenses you might expect, along with the kind of expected results that your potential sponsor may be experiencing so you can decide whether it's worth the investment of time and money, especially if you will be encouraged to purchase training from the upline.  And actually, your sponsor is obligate to train you free of charge.  You don't hear that on standing orders or at functions.

If your potential sponsor has a downline, and has been around for a month or more, wouldn't you want to know what their results and expenses are? It's perfectly reasonable to ask and expect a response. Since Amway leaders often talk about duplicating, wouldn't you want to know what you would be duplicating? I wouldn't want to put in 12 hours a week plus a few hundred in expenses if the likely result would be a net loss. Now I understand that a new business might not prosper right away but what are the indicators that a profit is coming? If you have trouble selling and sponsoring downline, you will more than likely never make a net profit. If you are selling and sponsoring, but still not profiting, then what? Are the tools and training expenses eating up all your profits?

It is my conclusion that uplines and potential sponsors don't share this information because it would not be attractive to prospects. Most IBOs run at a loss, especially if they have tools and training expenses and they might be putting in a tremendous effort. We know that some diamonds have financial difficulty. We also know that some, possibly many diamonds make more money from the tools and training than from Amway. I believe that the Amway opportunity is a far cry from how it's presented with the mansions and sports cars. I believe the reality is a sad one. If you are told by your potential sponsor that their business income and/or results are none of your business, you should pack up your bags and run!

Saturday, August 26, 2023

Bad Advice?

 Below is an excerpt from an apparently newbie IBO in Britt Worldwide (BWW). Note how they are taught that they must ask upline before doing their work. This IBO also talks about not having to use his brain, just follow your upline’s advice. Submit to the leaders. Follow the system and success is guaranteed. Right, and Amway apologists have the nerve to deny that this stuff still goes on? I suspect it is more common than Amway defenders will admit.


==========================================================================


http://greatdealmway.blogspot.com/2009/08/bww-system-and-get-success.html

*3 Cardinal rules

A. never pass negative advises or rumors to your down lines.

B. you must ask to your up lines before going on your first work.

C. never ever go bad with anyone’s self motive, money and family members.

*4 powers

1. Unity: unity is most powerful aspect. Do work in unity.

2. Power of submission to your work, up lines and customers: you must understand that you do not need to use your brain in this business. Just follow your leaders and submit yourself to them.

3. Power of spoken words: try out this simple but effective formula to gain success in your life. Speak out regularly about what you want in your life. It should be for this business, for family, for country or anything you want. This will reduce the negative energy and will create positive energy around you.

Do best and follow this system. Success is guaranteed!

Friday, August 25, 2023

Dead Or Broke By Age 65?

 Below, I have posted a recent article indicating that about 1/4 of Americans are working beyond the age of 65. That certainly debunks the IBO myth that 98% of people are dead or broke by age 65. It should be noted that the older folks still working make very good money. More food for thought should be how you as an IBO will benefit from the Amway business if you are not making money or if you are losing money due to continuous purchases of "educational" materials.  

http://www.usnews.com/money/blogs/planning-to-retire/2009/7/14/a-quarter-of-americans-still-work-after-age-65.html

A Quarter of Americans Still Work After Age 65
Comment By Emily Brandon

Posted: July 14, 2009

Retirement is a thing of the past for a quarter of Americans over age 65. Just over 25 percent of those between ages 65 and 74 were still working in 2008, according to the latest Census Bureau numbers. And amazingly 9 percent of Americans still go to work between ages 75 and 84. After age 85, the number still working trickles down to 3 percent or about 122,000 people who continue to hammer away at their keyboard or punch in with their time clock.

Most people over age 65 still in the workforce are professionals (20 percent) or hold management positions (19 percent). A large portion of seniors also work in the service industry (18 percent) and sales (15 percent) or have office jobs (12 percent). But a few retirees also manage to do sometimes strenuous jobs such as production and transportation (12 percent) or construction and maintenance (5 percent).

Many of the seniors who continue to work full time have earnings at the top of the pay scale. About 20 percent of those age 65 and over make over $75,000 annually and just over half (53 percent) earn between $25,000 and $75,000 from work. Slightly over a quarter of those working full time in retirement make less than $25,000 annually.

Commentary:  The dead or broke myth is a lie told by upline to entice you into joining because they hope you will be fearful of being in the dead or broke bandwagon.  It's a mind game and once you see through it, the easier it is to deal Amway recruiters.  Doesn't it make you wonder why these allegedly wealthy diamonds never retire and continue to slog on, year after year through the functions and meetings.  More than likely, it's because they have to.  Living beyond your means to portray the uber wealthy lifestyle can become quite expensive.  

Thursday, August 24, 2023

Why This Blog Exists?

Over the years, I've had comments left here, some deleted and some published, with IBOs and/or Amway supporters calling me names and accusing me of "bashing" Amway. I believe that these folks are misguided. If you carefully read my blog posts, many are not about Amway the corporation, but are aimed at the abusive practices of certain AMOs, or the groups that sell their system of tapes, cds, books, KATE, and functions. I believe that Amway the corporation is somewhat culpable as they did not reign in the abusers, but still, it is certain LOSs who teach bad business practices and give IBOs bad advice, which incidentally, costs the IBOs money.


Joecool was once upon a time, an Amway IBO, and officially quit Amway sometime in 1998. The name quixtar was already floating around. I quit, got on with my life and basically forgot about Amway. But more and more, I discovered that my upline leaders had been liars and had seriously misrepresented the business. I am from the era where upline leaders told us that nobody made a cent from the tools, which is now known as a lie. They told us that diamonds pay cash for nearly everything, which includes homes. We know that is a lie. Based on what I heard about my sponsor, I believe it is still taught as my sponsor, who is a physician, is still renting a small home in a rural area on Oahu. I started to participate on the now defunct Quixtar blog to learn more about the tool scam, and I started blogging to be able to help others learn about what I had discovered. My blog used to get thousands of visitors each day, although that is no longer the case. I have helped many people over the years who benefited by the experiences and information that I have shared. I do not receive any financial compensation for blogging.

For those who call Joecool a loser, let me talk about some things I have accomplished in life sine I quit Amway. I received several promotions at work, and recently started a new job where I was offered a pretty nice salary.  I am now retired and I'm only in my 50's as of this writing.   I own my home (I did not pay in cash, LOL). I bowled a 300 game, made a hole in one, and ran several marathons. I'm just an average middle-class citizen in Hawaii. I started Joecool's blog in 2006 or so. My old blog has been deleted as the host did not maintain the site well and I eventually got hacked and sabotaged. I started this current site on blogger in late 2009.

I am not here to "steal" anyone's dream. I am not here to "bash" Amway. But Amway, the business opportunity is one where most people do not make money to begin with. Add in the expenses for tapes, cds, voicemail and functions and you have almost a 100% chance of failure. Yet some upline leaders will promote Amway as a easy shortcut to retirement with a surefire chance of success if you dedicate to the system. But the system does not work. There is no bonafide evidence that the system works. This is what Joecool's blog is about - primarily the systems and its problems.  And to expose the many lies uplines use to bait and hook their faithful downline into buying tools and functions.


Monday, August 21, 2023

Millionaire BS?

 I have heard from Amway IBOs that they believe that Amway has created more millionaires than any other company in the US. I call complete BS on that claim. I am not saying that Amway hasn't created any millionaires. Obviously, the Amway owners are worth billions of dollars. But what the IBOs are apparently implying is that the diamonds are millionaires. I'm sure there are some diamonds who indeed are millionaires', especially if they are tenured diamonds, in particular the crowns and higher. But conversely, I believe that many high-level diamonds are not millionaires. I believe it is just as common for a diamond to be in debt as it is 100 PV IBOs. I also believe that many diamonds did not accumulate their alleged wealth exclusively from Amway. I believe many diamonds wealth is a direct result of the tools sales and not so much from Amway. It makes perfect sense because the tools have a higher margin of profit than the Amway products and fewer people are involved in the payouts, typically platinum or higher.

The reason why this is an issue is because these big pins will stand on stage and show off excessive wealth and imply that it is their Amway income that pays for these mansions, sports cars, jet skis, and in some cases, aircraft. In the US, I attended a function called "Dream Nite" where these kinds of luxuries are displayed, to the tune of the song "I wanna be rich". The diamonds would say that you can have what they have, if only you will do what they advise. These functions still go on today and I believe it is now called Winter Conference for some groups. The diamonds imply that they all wake up when they want and travel and do whatever they want with no monetary worries. I believe they just performing as illusionists. A diamond's income as reported by Amway, cannot support the lifestyles portrayed at these dream nights. and certainly not paying for mansions and aircraft in cash.

Stanley and Danko's book, "The Millionaire Next Door"
http://www.personalfinanceplaybook.com/2009/08/the-millionaire-next-door/

This book makes some very interesting points which I believe applies to Amway diamonds. I will outline the significant ones and I will comment below:

**Predictably, the data shows that most people who you believe to be very rich are not.

**High net worth individuals, statistically, tend to be people that live within their means. They don’t spend a lot of money. They don’t waste money. They tend to be pretty frugal people.

**The authors point out that most of the richest people you know aren’t driving expensive luxury automobiles. That’s what the people who want everyone to think they’re rich drive.

Joe's commentary. The book does say that about 1/3 of millionaires acquired their wealth thru a J-O-B and saved and invested, but did mention that many millionaires were also business owners, such as a pest control company owner, etc. But based on the points made by the book above, I can see where it is likely that diamonds portray a wealthy lifestyle as a recruitment tactic, when the reality is they may be living very middle-class lifestyles off stage or may even be in debt. I have seen evidence of diamonds having their homes foreclosed and being in debt (Ruth Carter's book: Amway: Behind the Smoke and Mirrors). Recently, there was also a report that Triple Diamond Greg Duncan filed for bankruptcy. The report indicated that he could not make his mortgages, or something to that tune. Odd, because when I was in WWDB, some of the upline leaders said diamonds paid cash for everything because paying interest to the bank wasn't very smart.

My question is why IBOs continue to make up these claims? Try googling millionaire or Amway millionaire. There is nothing to indicate that Amway was responsible for creating the "most millionaires" of any US company. If this were true, wouldn't Amway state it on their website? If someone finds any veracity about this claim, inform me and I will post it. Alas, you won't.

Sunday, August 20, 2023

The Facade?

 One of the things that Diamonds, and some other leaders do to attract new IBOs is to put on a dog and pony show. They want prospects to think that you can consume Amway products and get others to follow your lead, and, in a few years, you will be set for life financially, speaking on stages and securing the future for generations to come. They might use props such as pictures of mansions, slideshows of sports cars, jets, and yachts. It looks impressive but based on what I know now, who knows whether the diamonds actually own this stuff or if they are simply showing you a slideshow of "lifestyles of the rich and famous". The reality is very likely that many diamonds are actually living in debt or bonus check to bonus check. It is a fact that more than half of NBA basketball pros end up broke within 5 years of retirement, and they earn much more than diamonds. Why would a diamond be different than the average Joe, especially when they appear to live beyond their means?

In the few cases where diamond income was exposed, we can see that they were not making the kind of money they would have you believe. Triple diamond Greg Duncan was making about half a million a year from Amway. A nice income for sure, but not what people would think for a triple diamond, and not enough to save Mr. Duncan from filing chapter 7 bankruptcy back in 2009 or so. David Shores lost a home to foreclosure. Another diamond, unnamed but documented in the book "Amway Motivational Organizations, Behind the Smoke and Mirrors", talks about a diamond who had a gross income of over 3 million dollars, and a net of about $320,000. This diamond was in debt, had back taxes owed to the government, and was working hard to portray the diamond lifestyle.

Some of these leaders also use religion or Christianity as a means to justify their involvement in the business. For those who know, the Bible is clear that the love of money can lead to destruction. When you have functions, such as Dream Night, what does that say? I would also like to note that in cases where these diamond's financials were exposed, there were no significant contributions to charity. I wonder if these charlatans talk a good game but do not contribute time or money to worthy causes? Where are the ten thousand dollar checks they talk about donating to charity? These leaders often refer to themselves as mentors, but any help they provide to downline results in some kind of compensation for them. This is not a mentor, but more like a paid consultant who is not getting effective results.

Behind the nice suits and the glitz of the functions, I believe that IBOs and prospects would see a world they truly would not want to be a part of. A world where deceit is practically needed to succeed. Where you take advantage of people who trust in you. Where you pretend to be wealthy and free, but in reality, a slave to the mighty dollar. Where you traded a 9-5 job for a job that works the graveyard shift. If you look objectively behind the facade, you might see what I see.

Saturday, August 19, 2023

Do IBOs Actually Sell To Customers?

 As an IBO, our group was often told that selling products were not that important. Just buy from yourself and get others to do the same. When prospecting, you ask if someone likes selling and if they say no, you say "great, this business is perfect for you". Or if someone says they like selling, you say "great, this business is perfect for your". Keep in mind that a business exists to sell a product or service for a profit. I believe Amway folks forget about this fact.

People naturally do not like selling stuff to people, thus the adaptation to being your own best customer or buying from your own store. While it's fine to support your own business, it is not true that a McDonald's owner would never eat at a Burger King or other sill claims. Do you believe that a McDonald's owner would only eat food sold at his own restaurant? I guarantee you that isn't true. I know someone who owns a very popular pizza franchise, and she says she never eats at her own restaurant because she's sick of eating pizza. You make money selling pizza so you can have other options.

Another thing that Amway IBOs are probably not aware of is that buying from yourself and getting others to do the same without real sales to actual customers is running a illegal pyramid scheme. Another MLM company Herbalife, was investigated by the FTC and while they were not shut down, they were fined and had to change their operations because the FTC found that they lacked sales to legitimate customers. Herbalife is now forced to track retail sales with a compliance monitor watching their moves. There are stories of Herbalifers trying to fudge sales and Herbalife higher ups encouraging people to sign up as preferred customers instead of business builders. That suggests to me that Herbalife is basically admitting they are a sham. If they had legitimate demand, they would run a campaign to recruit more business builders who would in turn, sell products to customers who want their products.

So, Amway IBOs, are a majority of your PV sales to yourself or to customers? Are your customers your family and friends who are somewhat reluctantly buying products from you, if at all? If you are just buying and using your own products, you are actually not entitled to an Amway performance bonus. On the bright side, it seems that Amway just ignores this requirement and pays bonuses anyway. But without legitimate demand, sales and revenues dry up when the markets begin to get saturated. Amway's sales hit a peak at 11.8 billion in 2014 and has gone into a downward spiral since. In 2016, Amway sales dropped 7% to 8.8 billion which was preceded by a double digit drop in 2015.

With sales and revenues down, that can only mean there are less sales and volume, therefore there are less Platinums and diamonds that can be supported. But Amway prospects will never know because once you earn diamond recognition, Amway never updates it. Once a diamond, always a diamond, if you will. Thus, the leaders that are being worshipped on stage might not even be diamonds anymore.

In the end, I write this post to give you food for thought. Too many prospects and IBOs are not aware of these issues but they certainly should be,



Friday, August 18, 2023

Tools; A Waste Of Money?

 One of the things my Amway upline always pushed on us was the tools system. While the tools are said to be optional, they are not promoted that way. They were promoted as vital, necessary, almost as if you were insane to try and build an Amway business without tools. Basically the tools were a defacto requirement. My upline always claimed that nobody ever "made it" without tools. Some Amway defenders insist that the tools work, and that IBOs who were on the system proved it with higher levels of success and product volume. But the tools work for maybe a fraction of 1% of IBOs who try them. The vast majority of people who use tools make nothing or lose money. Similar to a lottery.


IBOs participating in the system (voicemail, book of the month, standing orders, functions, etc) do more PV. I believe this is true, but it is true, only because once the upline can convince you to participate in the system, then that same IBO is also convinced that they should or must do 100 PV as part of the deal. People who aren't convinced that the system is vital, subsequently do not purchase or sell as much PV because they have not been convinced that moving PV will make them successful or wealthy.

Critics and Amway supporters have debated this issue for years, but clearly, the evidence supports my position. Why? Because if there was a true demand for Amway products because of their quality and/or value, then there wouldn't be such a steep drop off in movement of volume when an IBO becomes a former IBO. Many, probably most former IBOs never buy a single Amway product once they leave the business. If the products had true quality and value as Amway supporters claim, why don't people continue to purchase 100 PV per month when they quit? Because they never wanted or needed all of that product in the first place? If former Amway IBOs continued to buy products, Amway sales would continue to increase. Amway's sales and revenues dropped more than 25% from 2014 to 2018.

If someone is convinced that Amway will be their financial savior and that by using tools and moving 100 PV will result in long term financial security and residual income as claimed by upline, then that is what they will do in hopes of achieving the end goal. When that goal or dream doesn't materialize, the former IBOs realize that the tools and products no longer have the value they once thought they had. How many former IBOs will buy standing order or attend functions? If these materials really made you nicer, or saved marriages, why don't any former IBOs keep buying them? Why do they resort to selling them for pennies on the dollar on Ebay or Craigslist? What happened to the great return policy?

Bottom line is that the tools don't work. They only work for the uplines who directly profit from the sale of tools, plus the artificial demand in product sales created by those IBOs who are convinced that Amway will make them rich. Once the reality sets in that Amway will not make them rich, and that the tools are simply draining their resources, then the demand for tools and Amway products disappears almost instantly. There is no unbiased evidence that I know of to suggest that these tools work, and basically, the miserable amount of new diamonds emerging in the US seems to confirm this fact.

Thursday, August 17, 2023

What Has Changed in Amway/WWDB?

 There's one Amway apologist named Bridgett who continually likes to use "old" and "outdated" as her source of criticism against Amway critics. She uses this feeble excuse as a means to defend Amway and WWDB. She claims that things have changed, and that critic's experiences are old and invalid. She says some of these things despite the fact that she participates on the blog of a WWDB IBO who is saying the same things I heard as an IBO over 25 years ago. Bridgett is either wrong or purposely distorting the truth, apparently. I recently had a WWDB IBO email me with current WWDB documents and I will be posting the details below. It is exactly the same stuff I was told as an IBO more than 25 years ago. Old habits die hard I guess. The only difference is that as an IBO, we did not use the internet. Basically the rest is the same VERBATIM. So much for Bridgett's credibility. Not that she had any credibility.  I don't think she's very smart. :-)


Here's the details from the WWDB IBO's documents:

4 STANDARDS
1. Membership with Amway Global
2. Meet the Bigger Team
3. Ditto on the First
4. Check your Team Website Daily and Listen to LIT Updates sent through e-mail

5 NIGHTS A WEEK
Build your business 5 nights a week!

9 CORE STEPS

1. STP 3-5x Each Week
2. Personal Circle (150PV Single/300PV Couples)
3. Customers (50PV Minimum)
4. Membership CD.s- Listen Daily
5. Read a Book from the Book List 15 min. Daily
6. Attend ALL Events / Game Day.s
7. Associate & Counsel regularly
8. Integrity & Accountability
9. Check your Team Website Daily and Listen to LIT Updates sent through e-mail

3 POWERS
1. Power of Agreement . this means be willing to listen & learn, submit your ego & be teachable.
2. Power of Unity . unity with your growing upline & the bigger Dream Team
3. Power of the Spoken Word . speak positively, expecting the best from yourself & your business

3 CARDINAL RULES
1. Never mess with anyone's money (Is bankruptcy messing with someone's money?)
2. Never mess with anyone's ego
3. Never mess with anyone's spouse

3 NEVERS
1. Never embarrass your upline, downline, or crossline
2. Never pass negative downline or crossline
3. Never do anything for the first time without checking upline

Wednesday, August 16, 2023

A Diamond Is Forever?

 I've seen some interesting discussion recently about how a diamond pin is like winning a gold medal. That you don't get it taken away from you later even if you don't qualify anymore. The discussion also flowed as to where they mentioned that former US President George Bush is still addressed as Mr. President. Or that someone with a Superbowl ring can be addressed as a Superbowl champion. While I agree with that to some degree, I think the issue of diamond or former diamond is significant and different from former President Bush or a former Superbowl Champion. Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana don't parade around as if they just won the Superbowl last year.

The diamond pin is a significant achievement for sure. Seems that recently, it's even harder to achieve in North America. I don't know of more than a few new diamonds emerging in the last ten years or so in the US. But if say a diamond qualified in 1988 and never qualified again, how would you as an IBO feel about paying to see this diamond speak function after function and how many would continue to buy standing orders from a guy who may have achieved diamond 30 years ago and never again? Would the audiences be "fired up" to see these speakers? I find this ironic also, because many Amway defenders like to criticize Amway critics for having an outdated experience. Well, conversely, a one-time diamond would be basically the same thing. If not, then Joecool should command the respect of a 4000 PV Eagle since that was my highest level.

I actually have no issue with Amway allowing the achiever to carry their highest pin as a recognized achievement, but I do believe that those who use their former pin status to exploit and profit from new IBOs and prospects should be stopped. I know I would not have been so excited attending a function where the keynote speaker went diamond for 6 months a decade ago and was no longer qualified. Else, by upline's definition, he will teach me to go diamond and fall apart? I believe there are fewer North American diamonds now than twenty years ago. Some diamonds resigned and some outright quit. So much for residual/passive income. Obviously if these things existed, then nobody would quit or walk away from residual income.

Also, say a guy went diamond in 1980 or so, which is true in many cases.  Going diamond in 1980 and 2023 are very different worlds, but the faithful IBOs are led to believe that these old tenured diamonds, who may know nothing about the internet or online sales are going to be giving them advice, which they pay for, that is very likely to be outdate and possible out of touch with reality.

BTW, an article on an Amway Corporate website says this about passive income:
"Passive income is a term we do not permit distributors to use and it’s not a term the Corporation uses. In our business, there is no such thing as doing no work, and expecting money to still come in.” Link:
http://blogs.amway.com/answers/2010/11/02/unwelcome-words/#comments

Still think there's a free ride at the end of the tunnel?

Tuesday, August 15, 2023

The Truth About Amway?

 Comment left on Happy Franchisee blog:

http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/will-amway-make-you-annoying/

mary on December 5th, 2011 10:35 am

My husband and I were involved in the Amway/Quixtar business for 13 years. We worked very hard, attended all the meetings, reached the direct level, and made very little money. Thank God for Dateline. We were convinced that this was a reputable business,the people were great….so we thought. Then we found out the truth. 

The majority of the money that was told to us was suppose to be on the products and sponsoring /helping others,l was actually made on the books,tapes and seminars. You know they tell you that the speakers take the time from their families to give back to the business. Totally false ! The speakers are paid to perform. That is how they make money. Please believe me when I say that you are not being stupid just convinced by people you trust that you will make money. We went to our sponsors and told them we know how they are making money. 

We watched Dateline , years ago and still could not believe how we were tricked. It is sad that people will continue to believe this opportunity will produce millionaires. Most of the people in our upline were sued by other people and eventually went on to another scam. I know you will find this hard to believe. I did too. I am now reading all this information and at one time felt the same way. Again you are not stupid… just misinformed. 

We worked long hours, left our children with sitters, argued with our family , and listened to our upline to not believe the internet. If you make money at this business it will be on the books, tapes, seminars and speaking. We could not comprehend how our upline could have lied to us… they were good people that also got caught up in the lies. It is really difficult to listen to someone speak highly of this business, I know I would defend the products and the system too. I also thought I knew what was going on but I did not know the truth. Find another way to make money you, will be glad you found out now.

Monday, August 14, 2023

Amway Millions?

 I was sponsored into Amway by a good friend back in the 1990's. My friend had gone "direct" at the time so he recruited me by saying that going direct was "easy" and that he could easily show me how to do it. I had been recruited by an Amway IBO before and it was not a good experience where I was lied to in order to get me to "see the plan". I was in college and a friend had invited me to a "beer bust". I attended the meeting wearing a T-shirt and jeans only to arrive to see people wearing suits and ties and I was thinking WTH? My friend who invited me assured me that we would down some beer after the meeting. I was mad even though I stayed for the meeting.

I didn't join and my friend eventually told me that he may not be able to hang out with me in the future because he would be rich and may not have time to hang out anymore. I went home a bit mad and spoke to my friend who I came with. We talked about whether money could be made in Amway and decided that the Amway opportunity was likely saturated, so we decided not to join.

Fast forward to the 1990's and a friend of mine has gone "direct". I didn't really know exactly what that was, but I knew that the term "direct" meant you accomplished a significant level in Amway. I decided to join and see if my friend could deliver on his promise that he could show me how to go direct. I should have taken it as a red flag when I asked him about his Amway income, and he told me it was none of my business. But he smoothed that over by assuring me that we would both be "Millionaires" traveling the world together in the future.

I worked really hard and managed to sponsor 12 frontline legs in about 7-8 months and I was climbing the Amway ladder. I was considered a "mover and shaker" so I got exclusive time with the upline Diamond. I even got to attend special meetings and house "plans" with the diamond.

The ironic part of their story is that I purchased a home in the year 2000 and I made the purchase for about $300K. My real estate agent also knows my Amway sponsor and contacted him about purchasing a home on Oahu (Hawaii). My former sponsor told the agent that he would only buy a home in cash (Amway/WWDB teaching). Fast forward to 2023 and my $300K home is worth approximately 1.2 million dollars so my home equity alone nearly makes my net worth more than a million dollars. When you add in my cash savings and investments, I am doing quite well.  Sure, nothing to brag about and it's still not a life of excess luxury, but my former sponsor from Amway who is a physician is still renting a home and is nowhere close to retiring. I retired several years ago, with enough cash to live comfortably which includes frequent travel other luxuries.

While I may not be a diamond living the "diamond" lifestyle you see at functions on a slide show, I suspect that I'll be better off that some of the diamonds who live "bouts check to bonus check" trying to portray a lifestyle of "keeping up with the Joneses". Diamonds portray an excessive lifestyle of wealth but I suspect that many of them cannot afford the lifestyle they portray. There have been "factoids" that support my claims. The fact that a triple diamond in WWDB declared chapter 7 bankruptcy and another diamond had a home foreclosed (diamonds pay cash for everything?) shows that diamonds may not be as financially free as they claim.

So who's making millions in Amway?   It's not the rank and file IBOs, although some tenured diamonds might be.

Sunday, August 13, 2023

The Pitch?

 Many people have experienced some kind of pitch by an Amway IBO. My first Amway pitch was an invitation to a beer bust while I was in college. I arrived at the meeting expecting beer and pizza only to see people in suits giving a presentation. They spoke about how you could generate income by eliminating the middleman from product distribution. Creating efficiencies was a way to generate money and Amway was it. On the surface, it can seem as if everything the speaker said made sense, although real life practice doesn't bear it out.  A lot of Amway talk is like that.  It sounds sensible until you try it.  For example, they might ask if you want to make money or save money.   For the vast majority of Amway IBOs, they do not make a net profit or save any money.  But of course, saying it makes a lot of sense on the surface.

Sell and use consumables. Consumables need to be re-purchased so obviously it is a good way to run a small business. What wasn't discussed was the higher prices of the products. What many people do not see is that Amway's generous bonuses have to be built into the price of the products. For this reason, Amway cannot compete with big retailers who don't have to add salespeople bonuses into their prices.

But if you look beyond all of this and still think Amway is a good opportunity, then the real Amway pitch comes in. People get excited about working part time, 2-5 years to earn willable and residual income which will allow someone to retire early and leave a legacy to future generations. This is the point where the Amway presenter makes the pitch about people needing training.   You need to invest in yourself so that you get the proper training to accomplish this task right?   Many IBOs do not know that their sponsors are supposed to train them free of charge.  

You need tools. After all, a carpenter can't build a house without tools, right? So many people who think Amway will make them rich, start to invest in their "tools". Sure, the Amway functions and some other materials can make you feel good or motivated, but in the end, the tools are supposed to help you generate sales and to increase your business revenue. What goes unnoticed in many cases is that the Amway tools are the reason for an IBO's net losses. The upline will justify this by telling stories about how success is right around the corner or that you should never quit, and you will eventually make it.
But on the other hand, even if a carpenter needs tools, that carpenter doesn't need 43 hammers, 5 drills, and 7 of each kind of tool right?

All of this rhetoric from Upline is nice, but people who don't quit have no assurance of making it. Look at the fruit on the tree.  My former LOS, WWDB, has fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO 30 years ago. My former sponsor is still active in Amway after 30 years and he's not even a platinum. You don't see many new diamonds except for in foreign countries. To me, this is evidence that Amway is saturated and there is little chance of future success. This is why there are mostly tired old diamonds working until they pass away. If the diamonds were so "awesome", why aren't all of their kids and close friends also in diamond club?   Surely a diamond can train their kids and friends to become diamonds right?  LOL

Saturday, August 12, 2023

No Crossline?

 No crosslining was something that I was taught as a WWDB IBO and apparently, it is still being taught as a general practice in most, if not all LOSs. But this concept of not crosslining is just a mind control technique used by upline to control information. Uplines don't want their downline to talk to each other and have them accidently realize that they are losing money, primarily because of tool expenditures. Or they don't want them to give each other revelations about how certain practices are bad ideas. For this very reason, IBOs should be able to speak to other "Independent Business Owners". If one truly owns their own business, then it is of no business to the upline who an independent business owner speaks to.  In real business, this is very valuable for business owners to discuss ideas and concepts as a means to improve business.  But apparently not in Amway.


To back up my claim, why would any IBO attend a function, open meeting, or listen to a standing order that was not in their immediate upline or further upline? If that concept is a bad idea, why is it okay for IBOs to attend these meetings, especially when there is usually a cost associated? Why in the past, was it okay for me as an IBO to attend a function with Bill Britt speaking when I was in WWDB? What good would it do listen to a standing order of Paul Miller or some other high level IBO when they are crossline?

Then your upline gives you the line that you can listen but just take what you need from it and dump the rest. Couldn't you make the same argument for speaking to crossline IBOs at a function? Afterall, who would be better to relate to a new IBO than another fairly new IBO. Does an older timer diamond even know how to use a computer? But here he will give speeches on how to run a web-based business, but fellow IBOs are not supposed to speak to other crossline IBOs because they may or may not be affected by what is said. I believe it is for this very reason that many IBOs are discouraged from reading the newspaper and/or from watching the news on television. It would appear that uplines want their groups to become apathetic and only intake positive Amway information. It is for these very reasons that some groups receive the tag of "cult" I would be wary if my church pastor told me I could not visit and listen to another pastor in another church.

It would be odd if I owned a business, attended a business owner convention but was told not to talk business with other business owners. But that is exactly what IBOs are being told when an upline tells them not to crossline with other IBOs. It would appear that upline has something to hide or doesn't want downline to discover any information about the truth of what's going on.

If your group discourages crosslining, you should ask why the rule is in place. As an INDEPENDENT business owner, you have the right to speak to anyone you want to at an Amway convention. Amway has no rules against this. It is the groups such as WWDB or Network 21 that make up these kinds of rules, probably because they are seeking to control your intake of information. The question to upline should be "why".   Their response might be entertaining after you have read this blog post.

Friday, August 11, 2023

Level Playing Field?

 The Amway business is a level playing field. At least that's what my upline told us when I was an IBO. That everyone starts at zero. While that is somewhat true, there were other factors that existed, that most IBOs did not know about. That factor is the possibility of PV manipulation. I believe that groups that are not on direct fulfillment (Groups still calling in and picking up) are able to transfer PV around. Thus, certain groups or favored downline could be manufactured into higher pins. I believe most groups are currently on direct fulfillment, but I did confirm about less than a year ago that some groups still are on call in and pick up.

But let's examine the concept that everyone starts at zero. While this aspect may be true, certain people are simply better at selling, or better and more adept at socializing and talking to others. So, while your PV count may be zero, the skills needed to start and run a business is not a level playing field for most. I believe uplines state this to give prospects the idea that everyone has an equal chance at succeeding in Amway. I just cannot believe this to be true. Even current diamonds, while having achieved a certain level, probably could not "start at zero" again and build a diamond business.

Thus, when you really think about it, the "old timers" of the diamonds should actually be given less credibility than the newer ones. Do you really believe that a diamond or higher pin who built his business in the 1970's can really teach people in 2023 how to build the business in a way to address people in 2023, and the fact that the business is mostly internet based as opposed to the old days, not to mention the advance of social media, text messaging and other modern forms of communication.

It is easy to stand on stage, tell people how great you are, show off material wealth and then tell prospects that everyone starts at zero and that anyone can build the business. I do not believe that it is true. I also strongly suspect that very few (if any) of the current diamonds would be able to "start at zero" and build a new diamondship here in the US, where the reputation and shrinking sales would be handicaps too great to overcome for the vast majority of propsective IBOs. I recall back in 2005 or 2006, WWDB had a commitment for personal growth amongst the diamonds and above. I do not believe much fruit was grown out of that effort. The diamonds had committed to duplicating their groups to prove it could be done. Not a single one of them, as far as I know, advanced to a significantly higher level (i.e. diamond to double diamond).

The diamonds can claim a level playing field but it down work when the rubber meets the road.

Thursday, August 10, 2023

Real Or Amway Business Expenses?

 A recent sight visitor posted this link which I found interesting and humorous. I did not post the entire link, so there is more material. Check it out.


http://riles52.blogspot.com/2011/06/selling-soap-as-hobby-amway-ibos-in-tax.html

Selling Soap as a Hobby - Amway IBO's in Tax Court
Roger S. Campbell, et ux. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 2011-42

The Amway distributorship system is well known to respondent and this Court
Friscia Construction, Inc., et al. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 2000-192

I included the Campbell case in one of my group posts. It concerned someone whose Amway activities were considered a hobby by the Tax Court denying them deductions for losses. That portion of the post was picked up by someone who calls himself Joecool and posted on his blog under the title "Do IBO's have a clue about business?". I found that there are quite a few blogs dedicated to pointing out the downside of the Amway experience including Married To An Ambot by Anna Banana :

The other attraction of Amway to some people is that it might allow them to deduct as business expenses things like cars, part of their home or entertainment that they would have spent anyway. That's probably the aspect of Amway that the IRS finds most interesting. Joecool did a post on how some IBO's think of their income tax refunds (generated by Amway losses sheltering other income) as profit.

To me the most interesting thing that I found in my search is this excerpt from the Internal Revenue Manual for examiners who are doing information requests:

.4.4.3.39 — Amway Corporation
[Last Revised: 12-10-2007]
(1) Amway Corporation has waived the hand delivery requirements of 26 USC §7603 and will accept summonses by personal service, mail, or overnight service at Amway Corporation, 7575 E. Fulton, Ada, MI 49355, Attn.: Director, Legal Division. Direct distributors who further qualify for profit sharing bonuses receive the non-cash part of that bonus through a mutual fund account administered by Amway Mutual Fund, Inc., 7575 E. Fulton, Ada, MI 49355, which requires a separate summons

Now I am subject to the AICPA Statements of Standards on Tax Practice, which among other things forbids me from giving clients advice based on what I believe the audit selection process of a taxing authority is. I wouldn't do it anyway, because I think most people who give that type of advice are guessing. Even if you happen to be one of my clients, I'm speaking to you purely as a reader here when I give you this advice:

You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger

And you don't take no Schedule C losses from an arrangement with a company that IRS examiners have on speed-dial.

I found 23 cases of IBO's who fought the IRS in Court. (A couple appealed, but I only counted them once)They pretty much all lost. In these type of cases there are really three ways you are denied deductions. The first is substantiation. You didn't prove it. Next is that the expenses are not really ordinary and necessary expenses of the business. When you are talking about cars and business use of the home, those two issues can get blurred together. The third is that there really isn't any business there. Taxpayers fight the IRS and win on that issue frequently even a Vietnamese couple whose "business" was playing slot machines using the principles of Feng Shui. Amway IBO's who take on the IRS on the Section 183 "hobby loss" issue almost always lose.

One of the most common themes is that IBO's seek advice generally only from their "uplines", who of course are not disinterested. They also do not seem to put any energy into trying to control their expenses. I'm going to give you a little snippet from each of the cases and comment a bit on some of them.

LOPEZ v. COMM., Cite as 94 AFTR 2d 2004-7075
Jorge N. Lopez, et ux. v. Commissioner , TC Memo 2003-142

Tax Court properly determined that engineer and wife weren't entitled to business deduction for expenses incurred in connection with their Amway products distribution activity because they didn't engage in activity for profit: although taxpayers showed proof of profit motive, such wasn't sufficient to override govt.'s evidence that included their failure to keep businesslike records, their failure to alter unprofitable methods, their non-dependence on activity income, and their use of activity to socialize with friends and family.

In their own Amway activities, which began in 1996, the Lopezes sold products at cost to both their downline distributors and their customers, which practice eliminated retail sales as a source of gross income. They chose instead to focus their efforts on developing a network of downline distributors to generate performance bonuses. Relying on Amway brochures, the Lopezes concluded that they would need to achieve and maintain a monthly point value of 4,000 for their Amway activities to be profitable. In 1998 and 1999, the Lopezes' point value did not exceed 372 points in any month.


The only advice they sought for their Amway activities was from upline distributors, and when they received unsolicited advice from their accountant, they disregarded it. During the years in question, Mr. Lopez was employed full-time as a petroleum engineer, and Mrs. Lopez was a homemaker.

The tax court ultimately was not persuaded that the Lopezes' primary motive for conducting their Amway activities was for income or profit. It found that the conduct of their Amway activity “virtually precluded any possibility of realizing a profit.” The Lopezes' lack of a business plan for recouping losses and achieving profitable levels of activity indicated the absence of a profit motive. In the face of four consecutive years of losses, the Lopezes still did not change their approach to increase the likelihood of earning a profit. The tax court further found that the Lopezes did not conduct market research to help them assess the potential profitability of their activities. It also noted that, although the Lopezes had no prior business experience, they accepted the advice of upline distributors rather than seeking advice from unbiased, independent business sources.

Since the Mr and Mrs Lopez appealed, they got to lose twice.

OGDEN v. COMM., Cite as 87 AFTR 2d 2001-1299
Michael A. Ogden, et ux. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 1999-397
Contrary to the Ogdens' contention, evidence of profit is not determinative of whether a profit motive exists. See id. at 876 (no single tax regulation factor, nor the existence of a majority of factors, is determinative of whether a profit motive exists). There is overwhelming evidence in the record that, if believed, supports a conclusion that the Ogdens maintained their Amway activity for deductions, personal pleasure and to offset wages. The tax court did not abuse its discretion in denying the motion for reconsideration.

Amway does not have a quota for sales, its products do not have to be sold above cost, and its distributors are not required to sponsor downline distributors. An Amway brochure, The Amway Business Review, states that the potential for earning income increases as the number of distributors in a sponsor's group grows and as sales increase. Distributors devote as little or as much of their time to Amway activities as they desire. The eight page Amway Business Review in large blocks on four of its pages highlights the fact that “The Average Monthly Gross Income for “Active” Distributors was $88.”

We believe Amway distributors may be biased when discussing Amway because they have a natural desire to advance the organization and/or obtain income from a downliner.


ELLIOTT v. COMMISSIONER, 90 TC 960

Deductions denied for business expenses and depreciation connected with Amway distributorship. Activities were conducted in unbusinesslike manner, taxpayers maintained full-time jobs, and little distinction was made between Amway activities and personal social activities. Also, IRS properly imposed penalties for failure to timely file and negligent or intentional disregard of rules.

A further indication of the unbusinesslike fashion in which petitioners conducted their Amway activity was the thin line dividing business activities from personal and [pg. 973]recreational activities. Petitioners offered scant evidence that their Amway activity required them to do anything other than to maintain an active social life. Although they occasionally attended seminars, most of their activity involved giving parties and taking people out to restaurants. While there is no requirement that profit-oriented work be onerous and unpleasant, the evidence presented by petitioners does not indicate activity motivated by a profit objective. On the contrary, the evidence shows that petitioners made some small modifications in their routine social life, kept cursory notes about their activities, and claimed deductions for the cost of nearly everything they owned or did. On this record, we find as a fact that petitioners' activities were motivated by a desire to avoid tax rather than a desire to generate income.

Roger S. Campbell, et ux. v. Commissioner, TC Memo 2011-42

Activities not for profit—profit objective—distributorship and direct marketing activities. Code Sec. 183 deduction limits applied to expenses pro se married real estate and construction business operators claimed in connection with Amway distributorship activity that they engaged in without requisite profit objective. Lack of profit objective was shown by facts that taxpayers commingled expenses, had no idea if they were making profit for any given year until they filed that year's return, didn't keep complete records, and otherwise didn't conduct activity in businesslike manner. It was also telling that taxpayers didn't have experience in this type of activity, didn't seek out independent advice, used activity losses to offset their real estate and construction business income, and stated that they would continue with activity regardless of whether it ever turned profit. Countervailing facts that they spent significant time on activity and increased gross receipts during years at issue weren't dispositive considering overall record

Wednesday, August 9, 2023

Avoid The Amway Name?

 I often find it comical that to this day, I still see people who like to hide the Amway name when recruiting others. I believe this tactic has been a major factor in why Amway has a bad reputation in North America. When I was recruited, I was lied to as well. I was invited to a "beer bust" only to find out it was an Amway meeting. I went home that night thinking WTH was that? They lie to us and then expect us to join the business. And to this day, I believe this practice continues. They might use another name such as "Liberty Marketing" or "Worldwide Group" to mask the opportunity they are pitching. My question is why?

Over the years, IBOs have tried all kinds of ways to disguise the Amway opportunity. In the past, it was network marketing, e-commerce, online shopping mall and the corporation even changed Amway in North America to "Quixtar". Sadly, the name change to quixtar did not work, probably because the same tactics were used when recruiting new IBOs into Quixtar. Amway eventually changed the name back to Amway. I believe this bad reputation in North America is why Amway, in years past, enjoyed the most business growth overseas where people either do not know the Amway name, and likely because there haven't been enough former Amway/AMO victims to soil the name in other countries. As markets mature and people get to know about Amway, we se what is happening now. Amway revenues have plummeted from 11.8 billion in 2013 to 8.8 billion (global) in 2016. That's a serious decline!

So IBOs, how can you expect someone to trust you and do business with you if you are deceitful or outright lie about the Amway opportunity? Are you ashamed of the Amway name? If you are ashamed or scared to drop the "A bomb" on people, how will you ever be able to show any plans, let alone sponsoring anyone into the business? My former sponsor used to tell our group that the biggest challenge is overcoming the name Amway. To be fair, Amway the corporation is not the reason for the bad reputation. It is the unethical and bad behavior of IBOs that lead to a bad reputation but on the other hand, it's not the like Amway police have been cracking down and visibly taking action against the violators so Amway is also guilty to some degree.

Conversely, people who come right out and talk about Amway are unlikely to net any decent results either because of the past reputation. It's an almost no-win situation for IBOs and prospects. For these reasons, I believe it to be nearly impossible to build and maintain a group, especially if your goal is to reach diamond. It seems as if more diamonds have left Amway in recent years than there have been new diamonds. I believe this to be spot on for WWDB, my former LOS. So IBOs, are you ashamed of Amway? If not, why are there still so many IBOs using trickery and deception in recruiting prospects?

If you avoid using the Amway name, what are you ashamed of?



Tuesday, August 8, 2023

Amway Saves Marriages?

 http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/will-amway-make-you-annoying/comment-page-12/#comment-92192


■DoAsISay on January 8th, 2012 9:31 pm
I finally decided to search the web after being out of Amway now since February 2011. I was hesitant to do so because I had been told not to so many times by my uplines that there is negative on the internet even about Mother Teresa. That was the “line” that they used to trick me into not doing my research. I am a college graduate with a bachelors degree in accounting and I was taught to always research a company to learn more about them if you are going to be involved with them. Anyways, I am glad that I did because I now realize that I am not the only one who disagrees with Amway and their approaches to “the business”.

A little more background about my situation which I’m sure is not unique to many others who have been in Amway. My girlfriend and I were introduced to this business by a friend of my girlfriend and her husband. From the presentation that was shown to me I thought that it sounded VERY easy to do. I was told that I only needed 3 friends out of my 200 contacts in my phone to want to save money and make money at the same time. That was the first lie that I later found out. First of all, we didnt save any money. We threw away over $7000 and saw under $300 return. How exactly am I saving money? Secondly, IF, IF you get (trick) 3 friends to signed up, you have alot more work to do than that. Try 50 people and by the time u get 50 people involved, 48 of those will have quit once they finally realize that you took advantage of them and weren’t straight forward with them.

So Time went on and I hung around and observed the behaviors of people in Amway and how they talked. I said to myself, I want to be nothing like these people. They all sounded the same to me and it was just a little weird. Finally I realize that they have all been brainwashed how to think, how to spend their money, who they spend their time with, and how they spend their time. Amway with the help of the “EDUCATION” has completely taken control of the lives of many, many naive, weak minded, gullible, ignorant, or too trusting (you fill in the blank) individuals who worship their upline like they are God. Sure I thought it was cool that I knew a millionaire and got to hang out at his house and all, but Im not going to empty my bank account for anyone! How about this line…”You don’t make money FROM your friends when they get involved, Your making money WITH your friends”. WHAT?!? Last time I checked anyone you sponsor in the business, you collect their business volume from the stuff they buy and get a kickback from those purchases. I believe that’s called making money FROM your friends. They have another sneaky tactic that they use to conceal the truth. “You’re not making money from your friends, Amway is paying you for driving volume to their website. Ok, Yeah that’s still making money from your friends. Im not an idiot and your blender of words and phrases don’t have any effect on me.

Back to November 2010, I got married to my girlfriend I was in the business with and shortly after she became an Ambot as I’ve heard people refer to it. In February 2011, i had enough of it and decided to cut my loses and get out. My wife didn’t share the same thoughts and feelings though because she had been soaking in every last drop of the expensive “Education” we were receiving. Up until the point of me getting out of the business since I had known her, we NEVER had an argument. We were inseparable and much in love. That all changed as time progressed. We started disagreeing and this horrible person came out of her as I never seen before. She physically hit me on 3 occasions and we would fight, mostly her, as I like to be calm and collective. I rather reason things out by gathering the facts and explaining my perspective. Her reasoning went out the door with her mind because everything out of her mouth was something about the business.

I spent many nights home alone waiting for her to get back from those stupid waste of time meetings. Eventually in October I had enough. We got in another fight and she asked me to leave, so I did! Now supposedly when a woman says leave, that means dont leave in translation, but I took it at face value and left. We are currently separated and in the process of filing for a dissolution. I never thought Amway could destroy a marriage like that, but I’ve read so many sad stories where has done just that. Like I said, I’m sure my story isn’t a unique one, but I just wanted to share in hopes that I can TRULY HELP people steer clear of this plague. Not only will it empty your bank account, waste time you could be living your life and enjoying the company of family and true friends, it will destroy your relationships with the ones you love. These people that were in our business call themselves Christians, yet they can easily let a marriage be destroyed and not even flinch. Greed and lies are all I see in these people!

I would like to sit my wife down and show her some information so maybe, just maybe she will snap out of it, but I feel like she is so programmed at this point that I won’t be able to get her to read it. If anybody actually reads my entire story (I know its long) and has any advice on getting her out let me know. I got nothing to lose at this point since I’ve pretty much lost the love of my life.

Monday, August 7, 2023

Amway Leaders?

 Over the many years of Amway's existence, their reputation in the US and Canada has tanked. And it's not due to Amway the corporation, but rather Amway IBO leaders who teach and condone unethical behavior. Of course, I don't know of any significant measures that Amway has taken to discipline some of their wayward IBOs, but that's another story.

During my blogging career, I've seen young people who were discouraged from attending college so they could build an Amway business. I've personally seen people go bankrupt and lose their homes because they followed the advice of their all-knowing uplines. Sure, people have some responsibility for their actions, but I feel as if some of these kinds of actions by some IBOs and IBO leaders is predatory and focuses on people who can least afford to funnel money into the business and the leech teaching systems such as WWDB or Network 21.

I've seen ridiculous product claims such as people claiming that (perfect) bottled water could cure ills and make you athletically superior. Of course, this water costs about $50 a case when you could buy 10 cases of water at WalMart for the same price. They claim superiority in their vitamins without unbiased scientific evidence to support their claims. Perhaps that is why the Amway vitamins seemingly are consumed nearly exclusively by IBOs themselves.

Despite claims by Amway supporters and IBOs that things are changing in Amway for the better, there is plenty of evidence that nothing has changed. Outrageous income claims. I thought the Dateline show exposed some crazy stuff with an IBO leader claiming that people could earn $250K per year with a part time effort, but then my friend Rocket finds this gem with an IBOAI member and crown ambassador in WWDB/Amway claiming you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month: http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2011/09/amway-guys-they-sure-say-stuff.html

I wonder if Brad Duncan himself even makes that kind of money. Ironically, his triple diamond brother wasn't even close to that when his bankruptcy papers were exposed as public record to due his filing chapter 7 bankruptcy which revealed that he, a triple diamond, earned about 500K from Amway and 500K from the tools scam.   A big income, but after taxes and expenses, these guys are not wealthy like Bill Gates or Elon Musk, as they would have you believe.

So to Amway prospects and apologists, the Amway corporation itself may be perfectly legal and clean, but the root of many evils comes from Amway uplines and AMO leaders. It is for this very reason that many get turned off just at the mention of the Amway name. Amway can stop them, but will they?

Sunday, August 6, 2023

A Clueless IBO?

 I came across this blog and while I've seen similar posts by Amway business owners, this one was interesting because of the detail and the passion the blog author has. In a nutshell, he lost money in Amway but calls it success because after he received his tax refund, he's now claiming to have a net profit. It's amazing what these Amway/WWDB leaders can get people to believe.


https://transparencyofadreamer.wordp...sing-in-amway/

Below are excerpts. The blog owner claims to have made a net gain due to a tax refund. He doesn't explain how he arrived at that refund but apparently his losses in Amway lowered his tax liability for whatever income tax was already withheld from either his paycheck (job) or from paying estimated taxes in advance for a business or some other venture. It's quite scary and illustrates how some people can hang on in Amway for so long even when suffering losses. The IBO's are programmed to "think" they actually made money!

Based on what they have taught me, even though I barely had any increase in my overall organization (ie: I was pathetically lazy, didn’t put any work in and barely increased the size of organization – #sadface) I STILL DID NOT LOSE MONEY!

2013 total Cost Run Down:
Communikate: $443.40
Digital Delivery: $300.00
Premier Membership: $599.40
Major Functions: $595.00
Major Function Hotels: $750.00
Business Support Materials: $240.00
Total Business Cost: $2927.80

Lets bring it all together here, folks.

Total Amway Payout in 2013: $2112.36
Total Cost To Run Business: -$2927.80
= $-815.44

Just like I said last year – “Oh No! I’ve been scammed! I’ve lost money! My upline lied to me! I didn’t put in any work to sponsor anyone this last year and its everyone’s fault but mine! The business doesn’t work! What a total scam!!!”

Hold on now Mr. Negative – Due to running my own business in a country that incentivises business owners to run their own business I received tax benefits that entitled me to a refund for the 2013 year in the amount of $2409.76. Lets do this again, shall we?

Total Amway Payout in 2013: $2112.36
Total Cost To Run Business: -$2927.80
Total Tax Refund For 2013: $2409.76
= $1594.32

So, as I wrap up I hope I made my point very clear – you will not lose money running your own Amway Business powered by World Wide Dreambuilders…. IF you are diligent with your finances, if you don’t blow your budget your coach sets with you. You WILL lose money running your own Amway Business powered by ANY training system IF you don’t have a budget, if you don’t ask for help to set a budget, if you ignore your budget etc.

If your potential sponsor is affiliated with WWDB and is doing what they are taught, you should be educated on some of the numbers I shared above in regards to cost for access to your training and mentorship system.

Saturday, August 5, 2023

Responsibility?

 One of the disturbing things I have noticed about Amway IBOs and IBO leaders is how they will tell downline to trust them. To trust them as they have already blazed a trail. No need to re-invent the wheel. Just ride the coattails of your upline to success. The system is proven. Many IBOs take this to heart and put forth tremendous effort. Then when they fail, upline will shun them and tell them that the failure is their own. That they are personally responsible for failure. 

Now I am not talking about IBOs who sign up and do nothing, or never place an order. I do believe that the fact that many IBOs sign up and do nothing brings concerns about how these IBOs were recruited, but I do not recall ever seeing an IBO do nothing and then complain that Amway was a scam or anything like that. 

I have found, however, that many people who are critical of Amway and the systems, put forth much effort, did everything they were told, and did not find the success that upline promoted, or in some cases, guaranteed. My former sponsor was still active, last I heard and has been in Amway for over 20+ years. I do not believe he has ever gone beyond platinum, and I know that he was never a Q12 platinum. Some Amway apologists might see being a platinum as a bonus, but when you are hard core sold out to the systems, platinum is a break even or make a small profit business. Factor in that time spent by husband and wife and these folks are breaking even or making a fraction of minimum wage. Is this the dream that will allow you to buy mansions with a cash payment? 

What is also disturbing is how people will tout the system as responsible for any success but hide the vast majority that the system doesn't help. Sure, some will succeed in Amway, but for every success, there are hundreds if not thousands who fail. And if you consider diamond as the benchmark of success, the failures could be in the millions. As I said, some succeed, but very very few in relation to the number who try. Going diamond is probably less common in the US than winning the lottery. 

Succeed and the systems and upline take credit, but fail or quit and it is your own responsibility. Are these the kinds of leaders or mentors you want advice from? I will pass.

Friday, August 4, 2023

Diamond Actors?

 In my opinion, Amway diamonds are nothing more than actors. They portray a role and while they might be envied by their downline, when the lights are turned off, what remains? I believe most diamonds are simply middle-class people portraying lifestyles of the rich and famous. We could debate whether or not a diamond has an easy job. Heck, I could concede that speaking at functions can be better than a 9-5 job, but the volatility of an Amway business can make a diamond live under greater stress than someone with a regular and predictable job.

My former diamond used to live in a middle-class neighborhood, and he told the group that he was buying a property in an exclusive gated community and was going to build himself a nice home. He said his home would be on a hill right above a nice beach where he could enjoy his hobby of spearfishing and the ocean. I don't know if he ever built that home but last I heard, he is living in the State of Washington. Makes me wonder why he would move there when he was allegedly building his dream home in Hawaii near one of his favorite beaches. (Maybe the cost of living is cheaper there?)

Think of the diamond this way. It is a fact that most diamonds are not Q12 (which means they have diamond qualifications for all 12 months of Amway's fiscal year). A Q12 diamond averages about $600,000 from Amway (source: Amway.com) but only a small percentage of diamonds are Q12. The other average non Q12 diamonds average about $150,000 a year and they augment that income with tools scam income. So, an average diamond might make in the range of $250,000. You may thing they are "rich" but after business expenses are considered, plus taxes and family medical and dental insurance, and other miscellaneous business expenses, a diamond is not financially capable of buying homes in cash, having exclusive golf club memberships and buying Ferraris in cash. What is likely is that a diamond lives a middle-class lifestyle while acting like they are rich. I had a conversation with a former emerald who told me that most of her emerald income (or diamond for that matter) comes in the form of an annual bonus so her monthly income was relatively small.

There might be diamonds who are wealthy. But if they truly are, it is because they are at a level higher than diamond and they are also very likely to have income from sources other than Amway. We know that back in 2009, Greg Duncan a WWDB triple diamond filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy in Montana and it is public record. He had homes foreclosed. This man stood on stage when I was an IBO and told the audience that anyone who makes a loan is "stupid". I wonder how Mr. Duncan felt when he reneged on his multiple home loans, despite having a triple diamond income from Amway of about $40,000 a month?

For these reasons, I say Amway diamonds are just actors. Some better than others, but in the end, when the lights and shut off, they are not much better off financially than someone with a good paying job. In fact, I have read in several places that truly rich people don't show off their wealth. That is food for thought isn't it?

Thursday, August 3, 2023

Ineffective Tools?

 One of the things my Amway upline always pushed on us was the tools system. While the tools are said to be optional, they are not promoted that way. They were promoted as vital, necessary, almost as if you were insane to try and build an Amway business without tools. Basically, the tools were a defacto requirement. My upline always claimed that nobody ever "made it" without tools. Some Amway defenders insist that the tools work, and that IBOs who were on the system proved it with higher levels of success and product volume. But the tools work for maybe a fraction of 1% of IBOs who try them. The vast majority of people who use tools make nothing or lose money. Similar to a lottery.

IBOs participating in the system (voicemail, book of the month, standing orders, functions, etc) do more PV. I believe this is true, but it is true, only because once the upline can convince you to participate in the system, then that same IBO is also convinced that they should or must do 100 PV as part of the deal. People who aren't convinced that the system is vital, subsequently do not purchase or sell as much PV because they have not been convinced that moving PV will make them successful or wealthy.

Critics and Amway supporters have debated this issue for years, but clearly, the evidence supports my position. Why? Because if there was a true demand for Amway products because of their quality and/or value, then there wouldn't be such a steep drop off in movement of volume when an IBO becomes a former IBO. Many, probably most former IBOs never buy a single Amway product once they leave the business. If the products had true quality and value as Amway supporters claim, why don't people continue to purchase 100 PV per month when they quit? Because they never wanted or needed all of that product in the first place? If former Amway IBOs continued to but products, Amway sales would continue to increase. Amway's sales and revenues dropped more than 25% from 2014 through 2019 and did not go through the roof during the pandemic, which it should have as a result of covid lockdowns, etc.

If someone is convinced that Amway will be their financial savior and that by using tools and moving 100 PV will result in long term financial security and residual income as claimed by upline, then that is what they will do in hopes of achieving the end goal. When that goal or dream doesn't materialize, the former IBOs realize that the tools and products no longer have the value they once thought they had. How many former IBOs will buy standing order or attend functions? If these materials really made you nicer, or saved marriages, why don't any former IBOs keep buying them? Why do they resort to selling them for pennies on the dollar on Ebay or Craigslist? What happened to the great return policy?

Bottom line is that the tools don't work. They only work for the uplines who directly profit from the sale of tools, plus the artificial demand in product sales created by those IBOs who are convinced that Amway will make them rich. Once the reality sets in that Amway will not make them rich, and that the tools are simply draining their resources, then the demand or tools and Amway products disappears almost instantly. There is no unbiased evidence that I know of to suggest that these tools work, and basically, the miserable amount of new diamonds emerging in the US seems to confirm this fact.

Wednesday, August 2, 2023

The Real Loser?

 One of the things I recall as an IBO was thinking how sorry I felt for people who were not IBOs because we were all going to be rich and everyone else was a loser. Our upline used to tell us that we were winners - and if you weren't a winner, then obviously, you are a loser. Many times, the term "broke" was attached to the term loser. That was my mindset back then but having been out of the system more than ten years, I can look back and laugh, realizing that the losers were the ones buying stuff they don't need, stalking people at malls and bookstores, and wasting their time and money on tapes (cds), books and functions. 

What goes unnoticed in many cases, is how much time and money really goes down the drain for IBOs who work the system. Your life revolves around the business if you are dedicated and hard core. You are always looking for prospects and people to show the plan to, and you have to rearrange your schedules, or outright skip social or family gatherings because of the never-ending number of meetings and functions, many of which teach you nothing about running a profitable business. When I first left the Amway business, I was sort of angry at the time and effort that was wasted, along with the cash I threw down the crapper. 

But after I did finally cut ties with the business and the people associated with it, I got back into a routine of sorts. I focused on my job and after some years of gaining experience and working my way up the corporate ladder, I received some promotions, and I am scheduled to be retired at the age of 55 with a decent retirement income and will likely have my home paid off by then. So, while I did have to work a dreaded job to be able to retire, pretty much all IBOs are also working a job or business PLUS having to expend their time and money to run their Amway business which has little to no chance of providing a long term stable and significant income. And if I may add, it is the systems such as WWDB or N21 that usually end up costing the IBOs the most money because of things like the functions. 

So I will ask the question. Who's the real loser? The person diligently working and saving for their future or the person chasing a dream that is unlikely to materialize? Factoring in the expenditure of time also makes the systems even more costly than it appears on the surface. I feel sorry for IBOs.

Tuesday, August 1, 2023

Fruit On The Tree?

 When I was an Amway IBO, I often heard that phrase "look at the fruit on the tree". I came from the LOS WWDB, or Worldwide Dream Builders, or Worldwide Group. Back in the 1990's, Amway and WWDB were doing quite well. Amway was expanding into foreign countries, and it seemed as if Amway and WWDB had gained a great deal of momentum. I recall hearing the term "look at the fruit on the tree" and it was somewhat true. There were new diamonds emerging in Amway WWDB and Amway had experienced worldwide growth.

Then Amway turned into Quixtar around 1999, and it was comical to see Amway IBOs denying that Quixtar = Amway. The terms "Ecommerce" and "private franchising" became common, but it didn't fool many people. This was a time when Amway folks were very active in defending Amway and Amway related blogs and forums were all over the Internet.

But let's look at the "fruit on the tree". Where are all the new diamonds? Sure, there were some new diamond couples in the US since the 1990s', but what other fruit is on that tree? Brad Wolgamott, who said "WWDB saves marriages", got divorced, and Greg Duncan declared chapter 7 bankruptcy in 2009. David Shores had a home foreclosed around 2009 or 2010. Jim and Betty Jean Brooks got divorced, Ron Puryear passed way (condolences to his family) but Ron, a crown ambassador worked until he passed. Where's the freedom?

Sure, a diamond may not have a tough life working but you still need to be somewhere at a particular time to earn money. That's not much different from a job. Where is even a single person or couple who built it once and built it right, and walked away to enjoy "financial freedom" and lifelong "residual income" from Amway? Why can't anyone for all my blogging years, show clear evidence of a diamond or emerald who built it once and built it right, who walked away from Amway and is living in luxury while collecting just collecting bonus checks in the mail?

Maybe there is no fruit on the Amway/WWDB tree and there is no residual income? If that were a true possibility, why has nobody opted for that?  Why doesn't Amway corporation promote this magical residual income?  The answer is clear. There is no true residual income from Amway due to the high attrition rate and there is little to no fruit on the WWDB tree. The tree is bare and barely surviving.  That's my POV.