Friday, January 8, 2016

Bad Upline Advice

In the Amway business, most active IBOs are advused to trust upline. To think of upline as a coach or a mentor. These upline mentors or coaches are supposed to have your best interest at heart and they will guide you to success if only you will be open to learning. Many uplines, including my former uplines used to coin the term "copy" or duplicate. If you can do that you will be successful. Even the simplest of people can copy. The upline may crack a joke about getting thru school by copying. Thus, many IBOs follow exactly what their upline advises them to do.

But then uplines turn the responsibility away from themselves. Many Amway defenders will also claim that downline should not simply follow the advice of upline. They may make a ridiculous claim that standing orders and functions contain advice that must be discerned. That information is like a buffet. You pick and choose what you need and discard the rest. If you are a new IBO or prospect, let me tell you that is a load of guano (crap) that is being heaped on you. Your upline is touted as having experience and wisdom in the Amway business, which is why you are paying good money for voicemail, books, cds, and functions. So why would their advice be something you pick and choose? How would a new IBO know what to pick and choose?

Imagine hiring a guide for a trek in the wilderness. The guide is supposed to be an experienced outdoorsman, perhaps an expert. So if he recommends that you eat certain plants or fruits, you trust that he is going to guide you right. Imagine eating something that made you sick to your stomach, only to have the guide tell you that he just points out plants and fruits and you have to discern which is good for you and which is not. You would fire the guide and tell everyone you know not to use that guide anymore.

But here we have these "systems" such as Network 21, WWDB or BWW that have been "guiding" IBOs for up to 20 years or more in some cases, and the number of diamonds are negligible. Sure there are many new platinums, but many tool consuming platinums have been found to be losing money or making very little money for their efforts. What's more, it would appear that Amway is losing ground in North America based on sales. One can reasonably guess that any new platinums that break are simply replacing the volume for a platinum that no longer exists or a platinum that no longer qualifies. My former upline diamond appears to have all new qualifying platinums from the time I was in the business and here's the kicker. My former diamond had 6 downline rubies. As far as I know, none of these rubies are qualified as platinum anymore, although I have heard that some of these are still active.

Uplines also program their downline to take responsibility for the failure. Thus you have IBOs who did everything that was asked of them, only to fail. Yet these IBOs often blame themselves for their failure. It is my opinion that former IBOs who did everything asked of them only to fail should file a formal complaint against their LOS with the better business bureau. Amway defenders like to think that a lack of formal complaints means that the system works when clearly, there is no unbiased substantial evidence to suggest that the system works. It looks like some succeed in spite of the system, not because of.

The catch in all this is uplines skirting responsibility for the outcomes of those they "mentor" and profit from. IBOs should ask if upline really cared about their success, why do you have to pay for any help that you receive from your upline diamond?

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

Looking at the CORE steps carefully. Only 2 steps are aimed at making sales. These are showing "the plan" and retailing the products. Ironically and unfortunately. These 2 steps are extremely difficult and often times impossible to perform. The rest are easy but ironically, the rest of the steps are non-income producing and involves a loss. Therefore, if you can do the 2 impossible steps. Either you are gifted in lying or the prospect is highly vulnerable enough to believe in your lies.

Anonymous said...

Joe, one of the answers I have noticed from Amway defenders concerning this question of support from up-line goes like this: "I won't teach you for free!"

Their attitude seems to be that, just like a teacher or a private tutor, they have to be paid for giving lessons. But this isn't how a real business works. In a real business, those in charge give their subordinates the necessary training without requiring payment of any kind.

If up-line expects and hopes to make money off you, then up-line has a financial interest in your success. He should be perfectly willing to do everything he can to guide you into profit-making, and without any charge for doing so. After all, if he teaches you well, he makes money!

It's like the old apprentice system. The apprentice got training and experience by working with the master for free (the apprentice usually also got room and board from him), but he didn't PAY the master for it! The master, for his part of the deal, got an unsalaried helper who worked with him for a few years.

Amway is the worst kind of pseudo-apprentice deal. You pay the master (your up-line) in the form of tools and functions and a host of other incidental expenses, but you get nothing in return! No real training, no actual help, no advice except to recruit more IBOs. All up-line wants from you is a standing order for unnecessary products, CommuniKate, function fees, and plenty of useless "tools."

A medieval apprentice was a lot better off.

Joecool said...

Absolutely right. The CORE steps designed for you to succeed consists of mostly steps that profit your upline such as attending functions and listening to cds. Steps that involve sales are the minority and do not emphasize the actual sales of products to clients or customers. Sales are usually incidental and only if the prospect says no to being an IBO.

Joecool said...

Actually, sponsors are supposed to be obligated to motivate and train anyone they sponsor. But the system has evolved into a lucrative "do as I say, not as I do" game for the upline. And what makes it worse and ticks me off is that people who work hard and do everything they are told still end up being blamed for failure.

They'll be told you didn't do it just right, or that they didn't really work hard enough.

Bottom line is that Amway is a faulty pyramid game and the majority fail because they must. That's how it works.

Anonymous said...

I guess Amway has to say the individual IBO is always at fault if he fails. If they didn't, attention would be directed to the flaws in the entire Amway "Plan." And this would bring a flood of very uncomfortable questions.

Joecool said...

Actually, the numbers released (required by law) by Amway reveals much. That .26% of IBOs reach platinum. That means just a hair more than 1 in 400 reach platinum and at that level, you are likely just barely making a profit if are buying cds, books, voicemail and attending functions.

Another tidbit is how IBOs earn an average of $202 a month gross, but that's after you disregard 53% of IBOs who are considered inactive by Amway, thus the real average is probably less than $100 a month.

Anonymous said...

Should an IBO be able to beat the odds and succeed. The upline will take the credit for themselves.... sad but true.

Anonymous said...

To grow the business you have to be gifted at lyong and nothing rlse. All big pins are.

Joecool said...

Yep, upline gets credit for good and downline gets credit for failures.

Joecool said...

Diamonds are exceptional at lying and half truths. How else can you get people to sign up for a business where more than 99% of people fail.

Anonymous said...

I think we can all agree that Amway is a religious cult rather than a rational system. It's based on blind faith and mythology, which are impervious to logic or argument.

Here are some of the unquestioned tenets of the Amway religion:

1. The "Plan" always works to make you rich, if you follow it exactly and completely, in the minutest detail.

2. Amway products are far and away superior to any competitive products in the general market.

3. Your up-line is an expert in every single aspect of the Amway business, so you must obey his instructions blindly.

4. Anyone who refuses to sign up in Amway is either stupid or dimwitted or a born "loser."

5. The relationships among persons in Amway are always friendly, loving, supportive, helpful, and positive.

6. Attendance at all Amway "functions" is absolutely essential if you are to succeed in the business.

7. Your Platinum is a demigod, and he must be treated as such.

8. Saying anything negative about anything --anything at all!-- is high treason.

9. Talking or interacting with persons who are not in Amway is a dangerous activity, and should be avoided as much as possible.

10. Lying about Amway is a perfectly acceptable thing to do when you are dealing with prospective recruits.

I dare any Ambot to come here and argue that these ten beliefs aren't an intrinsic part of the entire Amway belief-system

Joecool said...

Wow, your analysis is spot on. Even with all my years of researching and commenting on Amway, I couldn't have cme up with a better description than the picture you've painted!

Anonymous said...

Good job Anon at 10:37am. Anna Banana will be happy to read this!!

Anonymous said...

If you managed to surpass your sponsor, do you think that your sponsor will be threatened by your success because your sponsor now thinks of you as a competitor?

Joecool said...

Since most people do nothing, I'd say passing your sponsor is not that uncommon.

Anonymous said...

I started to see a flaw when a recruiter tried to prospect me saying "you know, I knew someone who is 24 years old become financially free because of this plan." I was puzzled by that claim because the recruiter of mlm will not mention the name of the 24 year old guy. I also think that if this is true then no 24 year old people will have to sweat for a living. Why do I still see 24 year old people trying to upgrade their life?

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous of Jan. 29, 10:37 AM --

There's one qualification to add to Tenet Number 9. You also are not allowed to talk with anyone cross-line to you in Amway. After all, if you did, the two of you might compare notes. And that's something that every up-line is terrified of.

Joecool said...

Yes, it was called cross lining. It's a no no because they don[t want IBOs to talk to each other and find out that they're all losing money.

Anonymous said...

You should add or change #3 to state "your up line is an expert at everything and should be trusted to give good advice in all areas of life regardless of expertise" it's a joke that anyone could think they should only listen to one voice for all decisions...plans fail for lack of counsel

Joecool said...

Yes, the credibility your upline has in giving counsel or advice is that they signed up for Amway before you. Does that sound crazy or not?

Qiunan Tang said...

feel sad for you guys get such bad advise or might be you make it up. That's not the path to success in amway.

Joecool said...

But with all the bad upline that is running around, nothing has apparently been done to stop the abuses.

Qiunan Tang said...

Well , they lost their pin, lost their market , that will stop them. Also , when we educate people in better way we took over their shares too.
We are in a free market , and the numbers always tell the true.

Joecool said...

Amway's own numbers show their business oppportunity to be a poor one.

Qiunan Tang said...

Really? Then why there are more and more IBOs join and stay in amway ? You see the number but you don't understand what that means.

Joecool said...

Go ahead and show evidence of your claim.

Qiunan Tang said...

The us market grows in last 4 years. The number of IBOs grows in our system. We have 2 new diamond last year . 2 edc , 1 triple diamond in NA.

Qiunan Tang said...

Come and see , seeing is believing , because you never believe what we said , so come and see.

Joecool said...

New diamonds don't necessarily mean growth. Other diamonds may not qualify anymore.

Qiunan Tang said...

Well, new diamonds means someone is growing , and you can do so. Yes , every year we might have few drop off, even drop quite a lot. I am listening to two FC talked about how were they drop from 20+ leg to 12 legs in a year or two and get back up again. It happens and it is a part of business. Of course , not everyone exprenice it as some of them never stop. One new edc were a new diamond in 2013. Many of our leading reach new pin every year. And my suppose made 3 q12 leg last year in NA .

Joecool said...

A new diamond doesn't mean growth. You could have a new diamond and a diamond who quit. That's not evidence of growth.

Qiunan Tang said...

A diamond quite does not mean it stop completely as once. You don't drop from diamond to nothing in one year. So if there one new and one drop, it still is a grow. In fact , a diamond is a similar to nice medium size company , it can work even the CEO walk away or changed, we can replace it (if a diamond walk away , one of its upline or downline would take over the job , right ? )

Anonymous said...

One new grow and one drop means 0 growth. (1 - 1 = 0)

Joecool said...

My old LOS - WWDB has fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO. The growth Amway has is probably not in mature markets like the US. The US market is a tough sell with Amway's bad reputation.

Qiunan Tang said...

You might be true and it won't be surprised if they done what you said. But our grow is clear and consist that's all I have to care about. by the way, we are now in a goble market.

Joecool said...

That's because is foreign countries, Amway is not recognized as a scam as quickly as in the US.

Qiunan Tang said...

more than 20 years in foreign countries it well enough for people recognize if amway is a scam. That provide it is not a scam. Well, some system in U.S might be a scam , but it is not amway . Because the legal system in the U.S. I don't think Amway can do much to stop them. Of course I could be wrong but you might try to bring a law suit with those tools scam and see the result.
And our grow , not only in China , but also in NA , EU, south east Asia , Mexico , Singapore prove our system can be copied to worldwide.

Anonymous said...

This is from a independent site showing the pros and cons of Amway. The author is not a IBO but has a friend who is one and decided to do research. he has claimed he is not for or against Amway in anyway.

" Building network marketing teams that last is incredibly difficult in North America (specifically USA). This may sound a bit harsh, but I have not seen Amway break a single Diamond in the USA in 2 decades (it was brought to my attention recently that there was 1, but I have not verified this). The reason teams are difficult to keep together, even with the promoting of events, is because building a business entirely offline is not attractive to most people in this country. And as much as leaders may complain that the internet has ruined this industry in some circles, it doesn’t change the fact that the marketplace is an entity all of its own; it’s not up to us to determine what’s best for the marketplace, it’s our duty to find out how they want to be marketed to and then meet that desire. Building solely offline gets tiring and the vast majority of people simply don’t want to burn the rubber off the tires any more. Now don’t get me wrong, building a local team can be extremely powerful (I do it in fact), but if you are not leveraging the power of the internet then your method of marketing may not be attractive to most prospects. Additionally there are a lot of companies that have embraced the internet, and since most people go to the web for information it is easy for Amway reps to get discouraged and explore other options when they find out a business can be built online. Again, don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with the local offline approach, but it’s best when combined with the internet."

So sales of Amway may be growing in the US. Probably from higher prices to requiring higher monthly quotas from IBOs more then just getting more IBOs recruited. My friend is trying to recruit me at the moment and when I get a text saying "Don't tell anyone about this until we teach you how to approach people (friends and family). So and So did and he already lost some friends over it" Makes me question the legitimacy of the whole thing. Luckily I have already decided not to join. And only going a long to watch out for my friend until I have to walk away. I mean when the stats are only 1% make any money then that should be some big red flags. It was for me.