Friday, April 7, 2017

Believe In Amway!

Many IBOs cannot be convinced that Amway is not the best opportunity in the world, because they want to believe the lies/deception that is often used when they are recruited. They want to believe that 2-5 years of part time effort will result in lifelong residual income and that they will be traveling to the beaches of the world while cash keeps rolling in. They want to believe that they can ditch their (often) less than adequate jobs. They want to believe that a part time soap business will make all of this possible. The people (upline) who claim to have everyone's best interest at heart will sell them a proven system of success and all they need to do is follow the steps to success.

Many people sign up for Amway and do abosultely nothing. They may not ever order or try products. But these folks do not complain about Amway and the expenses they may incur are minimal. Most do not even bother to seek a refund on their starter kit. It makes me wonder why these folks even bother to sign up. Although, there are stories of people being pestered into registering. Anyway, the part where this business gets dicey is when people register and do put in an earnest effort, only to end up with financial losses. Sometimes the losses are in the tens of thousands of dollars. You get squeezed for a couple of hundreds of dollars a month and after a few years of effort, you can find yourself drowning in debt, even after doing everything your upline advised. The fact that uplines don't disclose their busienss financials speaks volumes. Former uplines who have come forward have shown that most of their income was from hawking standing orders and seminars, and not from Amway sales as they would imply.

I bought into the hype at one time. I believed the lies. I believed my upline that no profit was made from tools. At the time I was an IBO, I too, wanted to believe that I could work part time for 2-5 years and ditch my job. That I would retire at the age of 35 and live in luxury forever. I wanted to believe that. But having reached the 4000 PV level, the precipice of platinum, I also realized that I had no profit. I sat down and did the math and realized that they would be little profit at platinum. I cam to the realization that a second job would have suited me better. I finally quit when I realized this, along with my upline wanting total control of my life. But I hung in as long as I did because I wanted to believe that Amway would be the vehicle that delivered my financial freedom.

Having dropped out of Amway, my life quickly got back to normal. Friends that I had avoided returned to my life. My disposable income increased and my cashflow was positive once again, now that I was no longer obligated to purchase tools. I also noticed years later, that the same old leaders on stage were still working as hard as ever, and none of them had taken the option to retire and walk the beaches of the world. Perhaps these leaders also want to - or have to believe in Amway because they have already invested too much time and effort to call it quits and start something else. I wanted to believe, but the fact is that people were not succeeding. People were not getting free. What I saw was home foreclosures, bankruptcies and financial struggles made worse for people because of Amway and the tool systems. And apparently, these same issues apply to the diamonds. Do your research and you will likely find the same conclusion that I did. That Amway is an impossible dream.

49 comments:

Anonymous said...

It's really like this: Nobody in Amway gets rich selling Amway products to non-IBOs. In fact, the general population doesn't buy Amway products at all.

The only way you get rich in Amway is by selling Amway, as a hope and a dream, to other silly people. If you have a knack for getting people to join and believe, you'll ride up in the Amway ranks. But it sure as hell won't be from selling Amway products. Your main income will be from "tools," which is the code word for devotional literature of the Amway cult.

Rick said...

Joe, you are really not a very cool person expressing your inexperience in Amway. Sorry you had a bad experience probably from an upline that wasn't running their business correctly. Or you weren't exactly doing everything you needed to do to reach the goals you were shooting for. It sounds to me that like it was all about you more than helping others reach their goals. It's takes a lot more work to reach the higher levels where you can eventually step back a little and start enjoying the fruits of your labor. 4000pv is not a level to become such an expert on the business as you proceed try an convince others that Amway doesn't work. A one legged 4000pv with some one downline doing all the volume will not get paid very much. The true money is when you help others build to the 7500 platinum level. Then you have a business not just a retail business selling a few products. Which by the way we are getting a 50% raise on the 4% leadership bonus this coming September, it's going to 6%. Amway is adding another $200 million to the bonus schedule.
So even though you are trying to deter people from making what you think is a big mistake, Amway is still growing.
Ps, People never RETIRE from something they are very passionate about. Therefore, I will never retire from Amway, because I enjoy watching the people I help to achieve the levels in the business that they want, it's not about me, it's about people.

Joecool said...

Rick, how many people have you sponsored that reached 7500 PV? I'm pretty sure the answer is zero. At 4000 PV I realized that the money was in recruiting downline and selling them tools and functions. It also required lying to them and promoting false hopes and dreams. That's how diamonds make money in Amway/

You will never retire from Amway - true, but you will quit when you realize you can't make moneu.

Rick said...

Oh my, here comes the accusations that Amway is a cult. Man, I wish it was a cult. Then the people you sponsor will do everything they are told to do, and become successful to whatever level they want. Then they would understand it's not about them. Then the stupid ones that don't get it and quit and start writing stupid blogs cause they haven't got anything better to do with their time.
If product doesn't move it would be an illegal pyramid. The sale of product is what you get paid on. I realize that anything I write the stupid people that don't get it will have a comeback for their failures in Amway. As for me I will never be as successful in Amway as I want to be. Because, I love helping people get what they want and there are always people to help reach their dreams. I do think you stupid people that don't have the facts would stop wasting your time writing your garbage about Amway. Have a nice life.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe that this idiot Rick is back again. Wasn't he demolished in a thread here about three weeks ago?

Maybe if Rick weren't brainwashed, he could answer a few direct questions:

1) Since when is the primary purpose of a business to help OTHER PEOPLE get rich? He says "It's not about me, it's about people." What is he: a businessman or a religious missionary?

2) Amway is "still growing"? Really? Then why does it keep reporting a drop in sales every year for the last three years? What kind of business "grows" when its sales figures decline?

3) If Amway is really "growing," then why is Rick so upset about Joe Cool's blog -- so upset, in fact, that when he last came here he practically BEGGED Joe to stop writing it? Have the anti-Amway blogs been having a bad effect on Rick's recruitment of new IBOs?

3) Rick runs something called "Liberty Marketing." Want to bet that it's just a small sub-system or miniature LOS for Amway? In which case, Rick is probably making the bulk of his money from "tools" that he provides to persons who sign up with him. Has he ever sold any Amway products by retail, to non-IBOs?

4) Rick says he'll "never retire from Amway." Could that be because he desperately depends on all that tool and function money that he gets from his exploited down-line, and can't afford to give it up?

John Doe said...

Rick is back and he's got more stupidity to spread!

Rick said, "Sorry you had a bad experience probably from an upline that wasn't running their business correctly. Or you weren't exactly doing everything you needed to do to reach the goals you were shooting for."

Rick, you can stop with the "Anti-Negative" charade. We all know you don't like this blog, and that Joe has messed up your downline. We see through the passive-aggressive BS and we are looking straight to the core of your being!

Rick said, "It sounds to me that like it was all about you more than helping others reach their goals"

Wow...so helping others reach their goals is code for swindling people to join your pyramid scheme? It is amazing how Ambots can spin things to sound so nice and bubbly!

Oh and let's not forget that Joe does not receive any compensation for HELPING consumers with his blog. Yet Rick has the audacity to comment that Joe is self-serving when he has revealed his financial bias for trying to tear down this blog, and that HIS business is hurting because of the selfless acts of Joe. Hmmm...

Rick said, "4000pv is not a level to become such an expert on the business as you proceed try an convince others that Amway doesn't work. A one legged 4000pv with some one downline doing all the volume will not get paid very much."

Rick, if you guys preach Amway is all about duplication, and being an easy business opportunity, and then condemn people that reached one of the highest levels of success in comparison to most of the people that join, then can we finally call you a hypocrite? Which one is it Rick...? Is Amway a super easy and awesome way to earn an income, or is it some complicated monstrosity that is described as a miracle? (Rhetorical question...we all know the answer)

Rick said, "So even though you are trying to deter people from making what you think is a big mistake, Amway is still growing."

Amway is not growing Rick...and you would know this since you have admitted your own downline is dwindling. Go look up your statistics for the past couple of years, and see for yourself. I do understand from your previous comments that you are often in opposite land...so we can chalk this up to more of that nonsense.

Rick said, "Ps, People never RETIRE from something they are very passionate about. Therefore, I will never retire from Amway, because I enjoy watching the people I help to achieve the levels in the business that they want, it's not about me, it's about people."

Oi vey Rick, just dig that grave deeper. So, people can retire from Amway in 2-5 years, but they don't retire from something they love, but you should join Amway because you will be able to step away from it at 7500 PV? WTF RICK!!! Stop talking out of both sides of your ass and stick with something!

Oh, and it is all about you...always has been...always will be. You are a self-serving idiot that has ruined tons of lives at the expense of your "business".

Lorikeets said...

Rick
We understand that you are a passionate man about amway. I love reading your comments because I find your justifications for what you're doing interesting. However they are not original or unique and everyone who defends amway uses similar arguments to you. You all sound the same. Hive mind. Not very inspiring.

Joe has every right to challenge you and is highly valued. For anyone who has seen someone close get ruined by amway or been ruined themselves this blog is a great help.

Prove that you have actually profited from amway at all and without misleading and pressuring other people. We get that you love it, none of us believe that it works.

John Doe said...

Rick said, "Oh my, here comes the accusations that Amway is a cult. Man, I wish it was a cult. Then the people you sponsor will do everything they are told to do, and become successful to whatever level they want."

Woah...you wish Amway was a cult? What the hell Rick? You wish you could control people and make them do your bidding? What kind of a monster are you? Are we finally seeing the underbelly of the Amway elites coming out and rearing its ugly head? This has reached a new low.

Rick said, "Then the stupid ones that don't get it and quit and start writing stupid blogs cause they haven't got anything better to do with their time."

Oh rick...you senile old fool. You simply don't get how bad you are making yourself and Amway look every time you post.

Rick said, "If product doesn't move it would be an illegal pyramid. The sale of product is what you get paid on."

WRONG! The product is arbitrary and is merely an extension of the recruitment scheme. You are selling people a dream and people will get some supplements and energy drinks on the side. If there was no opportunity to "Get Rich", then your product sales would be 0!

Rick said, "I realize that anything I write the stupid people that don't get it will have a comeback for their failures in Amway."

Is this your attempt at being preemptive in defending your asinine post? Yet another dismal failure.

Rick said, "As for me I will never be as successful in Amway as I want to be. Because, I love helping people get what they want and there are always people to help reach their dreams. I do think you stupid people that don't have the facts would stop wasting your time writing your garbage about Amway."

Huh? You can't be as successful as you want to be because you help people, but it is all about helping people? You are spinning out of control Rick! What facts are we getting wrong? Enlighten us Rick!

Anonymous said...

The person who's REALLY helping other people is Joe Cool. Without any financial reward for himself, he's saving people from the disaster of joining a rotten MLM scam.

Joe Cool is performing a genuine public service. God bless him!

Lorikeets said...

I even heard the Ol' "gee I wish amway was a cult because then my downline would actually listen to me hahaha" line at a meeting. Same old canned thought.

And as for preemptively dismissing any arguments against amway before they've even been uttered it is not a good look. Way more impressive if any amway defender had anything original to say or could think independently with something other than the same tired old cliches but I'm yet to hear it and sadly Rick cannot deliver.

Anonymous said...

Wow! Rick just shares what he's excited about and gets slammed for it. You keep it up Rick! I think it's a waste of time to discuss with people that will find something wrong out of anything you say or do.

I agree with what you said, 4000pv does not say anything about Joe's experience, I can partner with another person who works really hard and gets to 3850pv and I make 150pv and I'm a 4000pv business... with zero knowledge. Not to say that's Joe's case, but just to explain how that tells us absolutely nothing. On the other hand, Joe has mentioned he had Eagle parameters, which actually say a little bit more about his experience so he has that going for him at least :-)

In any case, you keep focusing on helping other people, that's the way to sponsor someone who gets to the 7500pv level, probably Joe will never understand since his focus was on selling training materials and stuff (something I've never heard of). And on that note, Anonymous, for your first question you should read some leadership principles... forget about Amway, if you have a team in any company, the success of your team (and of you as the head of the organization) depend on the success of your employees, so focusing on helping them succeed will ALWAYS turn into your organization succeeding. Even in the sports realm, Vince Lombardi, Alex Ferguson, and many other examples of great coaches that are extremely successful because their focus was always on making their team players better.

Rick, please understand that the purpose of a blog like this one is for Joe and other people who quit the opportunity to get justification on why they did what they did. They might say it is all about helping other people not get "suckered in" but in reality, the more people say "no" to Amway, the better they feel about their own decision to quit. You can learn all about it in a brilliant book called Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me) by Carol Tavris (check out the chapter on self justification).

I encourage you to not waste more time here :-) this comment will probably be attacked again by the same vultures that attacked yours, which is fine...

Happy self justification everybody!!

Joecool said...

Here's a challenge for Rick and the anonymous on April 11 @9:27.

How much net profit did you and your downline make? Net meaning you have factored in the business expenses that are incurred while running your Amway business. I'm certain it's a net loss and I doubt either of you will respond.

If you do respond, I already know it will be an atypical response where you have little or no business expenses and you magically sell Amway products to people lined up outside your house to buy these products.

But Amway's own stats tell us all we need to know that it's a crappy business opportunity. 53% of IBOs are inactive. How do you build a business where the majority of distributors do nothing? Also revealing is that .26% reach a level where you gross about $12,000 a year. That's about 1 in 400 who grosses less than minimum wage full time. Anyone with some logic and common sense can determine that this business is a near guarantee of failure by design.

Sure, "some" people make it big in Amway, but making it big involved exploiting the very people who put their trust in you, and most people are built that way, to lie and deceive to make their living.

And for your info, I had 12 personally sponsored downline so I had a profitable 4000PV business, which didn't earn me a net profit, because upline advice was to reinvest everything into tapes/cds and seminar tickets.

I blog to provide information to prospects. Information that their Amway sponsors won't give them for fear that the truth will steer them away from Amway. I do it pro bono and frankly, this blog takes very little of my time. But over the years, many people received very useful information from my experiences and informed opinion.

Anonymous said...

Yeah I got net losses last year between bonus income vs business expenses, I don't need to lie about it (it was all covered by the difference between retail and wholesale, but I can imagine you'll just bash that concept as well so don't bother, let's assume I have losses). A business that you can start and has a net profit in the first year guaranteed doesn't exist (it may happen but it's extremely rare). I see you like stats, so here are some from the Small Business Administration, 50% of small businesses fail within the first year, from the remaining 1/3rd disappear after 2nd year and out of the remaining ones more than 1/3rd won't be here in 10 years (that's only the ones that couldn't handle the debt, most of those are still in red numbers). And you need to consider that people who open their own businesses usually have a different mindset, it's not just any average Joe (some pun intended) like people that usually get involved with Amway.

I applaud your 12 sponsored, but I honestly find it doubtful that you weren't being profitable. Just a quick calculation on the basic compensation plan, without any extra bonuses will give you about $1,800 a month for that kind of business (assuming your 12 businesses are semi balanced) which makes me wonder, how can you spend over $21k a year in tapes and CDs? you do know that if you want to listen to them more than once you don't need to buy an extra copy every time right? My net spending from last year going to every function (with flights and hotels), getting audios, and even books I bought is under a fifth of what your business should've been giving you... and I'm married!

As of your stats... I'm not going to defend lazy people. 90% of the people that join a gym in January stop going by May... and out of that 10% remaining, only 5% actually go regularly to the gym... is the gym a scam? or are people lazy and thought they would get a beach body just by showing up and not breaking a sweat? (btw, about 50% of the people say they don't sweat at the gym because they are too busy socializing haha! people are funny!).

In any case, I actually appreciate you having this blog. It makes my job easier! Comfort zone people are constantly looking for an easy way out and I'd rather have those people go through this test so I can focus on no excuses people who are ready to work hard :-)

Joecool said...

Actually, the SBA website says about 50% of small businesses survive 5 years and out of the ones who don't, not all are failures. Some businesses get sold and some business owners retire.

I guess you didn't properly read my comment. I had a profitable 4000 PV business but there was no net profit because upline advised me to re-invest into more tapes/cds and seminar tickets. How do you spend all that money on cds? When your upline says it's wise to buy, in addition to standing order, an additional 7-9 cds each week. Granted I could have said no, but my upline diamond was allegedly a multi millionaire who made more money than I did so it wouldn't have been to wise to not listen to his advice right? After all he had only my best interest at heart right?

Your gym analogy is a red herring. But let's run with it. Only 5% actually go to the gym. That 5% still represents a great success rate than Amway businesses.

I'm glad you like this blog. I enjoy helping people. It feels really altruistic. Thanks!

Lorikeets said...

The same old stuff!!
The bloody gym comparison.
The incorrect small business failure line.
The assumption that people who aren't into amway just don't work hard and don't want to help others.
Get some new material. It's so grim hearing the same tired old lines.
No original thought.

Anonymous said...

It looks like Rick, having been totally creamed in debate here, had to call in some help. But if this guy is the best he can do (Anonymous @ 11:23 AM and @ 9:27 AM),I don't think we have much to worry about.

First off, Anonymous admits that he's losing money in Amway, and then gives the old tired excuse that "all businesses lose money in the beginning." Yeah, sure. But they don't lose money for year after year, as many "core" Amway types do.

Then he brings up more bullshit about how leaders in a sports team always work to make their team members successful. What idiocy! Doesn't he realize that on a sports team, all of the players RECEIVE A REGULAR CONTRACTED SALARY? The coaches and managers are fully paid for their work, and the players are fully paid for their work. How in hell does that have anything to do with the Amway fraud, where IBOs are no more than unsalaried on-commission salespersons?

Also, he contradicts himself about your blog. First he tells Rick to ignore it. Then he tells you that he appreciates your blog and it's going to help him in his business. What's going on here? Does the guy have a split personality?

The fact is that if these two losers (Rick of Liberty Marketing and his pal Anonymous) actually were successful and happy in Amway, they wouldn't be coming to visit this blog at all. They question our psychological motives, while their motives are glaringly apparent -- they are simply infuriated over the fact that Joe Cool's blog (and Anna Banana's, and John Doe's, and many more) are blowing great gaping holes in their down-line. And it's that boiling rage that sends them here to argue and blow off steam.

Keep coming, guys! We love to clean your clock, verbally speaking.

John Doe said...

@Anonymous April 11, 2017 at 11:23 am

Anonymous said, "Yeah I got net losses last year between bonus income vs business expenses, I don't need to lie about it (it was all covered by the difference between retail and wholesale, but I can imagine you'll just bash that concept as well so don't bother, let's assume I have losses)"

Those preemptive don't attack me lines are pathetic. Your rationalization of the losses being less than the difference of retail vs. wholesale purchases is more brainwashed garbage. We aren't assuming you have losses...YOU HAVE LOSSES! If your sheet says you spend $1,000.00 and you get back $400.00, but the price of the goods retails at $2,000.00 doesn't make you have a profit! That is a loss! We aren't buying your BS!

Anonymous said, " A business that you can start and has a net profit in the first year guaranteed doesn't exist (it may happen but it's extremely rare)."

What a ridiculously irrelevant and generic line. No kidding there is no business that is guaranteed profit or EVERYONE would do it...this line is as asinine as they come.

I'll skim passed the failed businesses crap you misquoted since Joe did a good job of clearing that up.

Anonymous said, "I'm not going to defend lazy people. 90% of the people that join a gym in January stop going by May... and out of that 10% remaining, only 5% actually go regularly to the gym... is the gym a scam?"

First of all, you blew it on the last statistics, so I'm going to say you blew it on these statistics as well. They numbers seem outrageous and with no article of evidence, I'm going to say these numbers are wrong.

Second of all, regardless of those numbers, that does NOT make the gym a scam. EVERYONE has a chance at being successful in a gym, and NOBODY'S success is based on "growing a team" (endless recruiting). That is a fundamental difference between the gym and Amway. Your success at the gym is not based on you teaching other people how to teach other people to come to the gym, but rather based on your efforts you put inside of the gym.

Anonymous said, "Comfort zone people are constantly looking for an easy way out and I'd rather have those people go through this test so I can focus on no excuses people who are ready to work hard :-)"

Two major problems with this logic:

1. Working harder does not mean you will reap more rewards. A person that works 80 hours a week as a nanny will not make as much money as someone that works 20 hours a week managing their rental properties. Working hard ensures a better OPPORTUNITY for success, but the hard work and success do not directly correlate. This is an EXTREMELY common MLM misconception.

2. People that quit Amway, or choose not to go through the process, are not doomed for failure (it's actually the opposite as they are more likely to succeed). There are MANY ways to be successful, and nearly all of them are more profitable than Amway. You have been blinded by your uplines teaching you that hard work and devotion to Amway will equal a lifetime of happiness and money.

Anonymous said...

First thing to note, I'm here not because I want you to stop or because you are hurting my business, I'm here because I enjoy arguing :-D so for me this is as entertaining as when I used to discuss in the religion forums or the immigration policy forums.

Second, even when my isolated Amway account is negative, I will never be able to repay the value of the mentorship I've received. There is no way to describe the improvement on my marriage as a result of my upline's advice and not to mention that after 8 years in the tech field I was $30k+ In debt and now I'm debt free with $25k+ in the bank. I personally don't see this opportunity as "I'm losing money" but for the net positive that it has had in my life and my wife's life. I don't care if you decide to mock that or not, it's something very personal and I don't care whether you get it or not.

As for the percentages I shared in my comments, that's what I got from a quick google search, they were not meant to be taken as 100% accurate but just to explain an idea. I do this for fun, I am not writing a paper so I don't need to get all my sources peer reviewed by statisticians.

@John Doe, I said not to attack it specifically because I don't want to spend time discussing a point that obviously you wouldn't understand (as you proved in your text). Second, you mentioned that everyone can be successful in the gym, I still haven't seen anyone that tries to become platinum and someone tells them "no, you can't do that" so I don't know what you mean there. Whoever wants to do it and works for it can get there. But anyway, I don't expect you to understand that. And I never said people were doomed to failure if they didn't do what I do. I would never say that, I'm just referring to what I've seen, people looking for the comfort zone get rich way usually don't cut it here.

@Anonymous, great job insulting me from the beginning. Never seen that before... but anyway, I agree with what you say about the sports teams, my point, which you obviously missed, was that successful coaches are so because they focus on developing their team, so it does exist success out of helping others outside of Amway. And I didn't contradict myself, I recommended Rick to ignore YOU, and I'm not lying about the blog, I do enjoy reading it. I feel it's very unfair the way Joecool was treated by his upline and I don't blame him for being upset at all! I would probably do the same if I had that experience! What I enjoy from his blog, unlike Ana Banana's, is that at least he uses decent words to explain his point instead of resorting to insults like she does. I'm not complaining about the contents, just the style is not something I enjoy reading ;-)

Any more attacks? I'm having fun! :-D

Himanshu Shah said...

I've subscribed this blog for fun 😀 and I'm completely satisfied. I feel myself very lucky that I'm with Amway $11 billions company. It's 58 year old no 1 direct selling company entire world.

Joecool said...

Amway did 9.5 billion in sales last year.

Anonymous said...

To Himanshu Shah:

Are you from India? Then you should know that the Indian Government disagrees with you about Amway.

Anonymous said...

First thing to note, I'm here not because I want you to stop (do whatever you want) or because you are hurting my business (you aren't), I'm here because I enjoy arguing :-D so for me this is as entertaining as when I used to discuss in the religion forums or the immigration policy forums.

Second, even when my Amway account is in negative numbers, I will never be able to repay the value of the mentorship I've received. There is no way to describe the improvement on my marriage as a result of my upline's advice and not to mention that after 8 years in the tech field I was $30k+ in debt and now I'm debt free with $25k+ in the bank. I personally see this opportunity for net positive that it has had in my life and my wife's life overall, not for just how one portion of it is going. I don't care if you decide to make fun of me on that part, it's something very personal that I've experienced and mocking it won't take it away from me so it's all good :-D

As for the percentages I shared in my comments, that's what I got from a quick google search, they were not meant to be taken as 100% accurate but just to explain an idea and I thought they were within the ball park (sorry if they weren't). I do this for fun, I am not writing a paper so I don't need to get all my sources peer reviewed by statisticians.

@John Doe, I said not to attack it specifically because I don't want to spend time discussing a point that obviously you wouldn't understand (as you proved in your text). Second, you mentioned that everyone can be successful in the gym, I still haven't seen anyone that tries to become Platinum and someone tells them "no, you can't do that, we're all out of Platinum pins" so I don't know what you mean there. Whoever wants to do it and works for it can get there, and that has been my experience in little over a year seeing many new Platinums just in the team I belong to. And I never said people were doomed to failure if they didn't do what I do. I would never say that, I'm just referring to what I've seen, people looking for the "comfort zone get rich" way usually don't cut it here.

@Anonymous, I agree that people in sports teams get a paycheck. My point, which you obviously missed, was that successful coaches are so because they focus on developing their team, so having success out of helping others, outside of Amway, does exist and it's quite common. Also, I didn't contradict myself, I recommended Rick to ignore YOU, and I'm not lying about the blog, I do enjoy reading it. I feel it's very unfair the way Joecool was treated by his upline and I don't blame him for being upset at all! I would probably do the same if I had that experience! What I enjoy from his blog, unlike Ana Banana's, is that at least he uses decent words to explain his point instead of resorting to insults like she does. I'm not complaining about the contents on her blog, just the style is not something I enjoy reading regardless of the topic ;-) and most importantly, every time I read a post I see more and more things that I'm not doing and my upline isn't doing so, to me, it reinforces the fact that we are doing good things to help our team

Joecool said...

Anonymous, if what you are saying about your group is true, then it is an atypical Amway experience.

My experience in the WWDB LOS is much more common, based on my years of research and interaction on numerous forums and blogs about Amway.

While you claim to be making some money, people who make a net profit in Amway are statistically insignificant. And that's based on Amway's numbers, not my own.

If you enjoy the debate, you're welcome to continue, although nothing you can say will convince me that Amway is a good opportunity for all. I don't care for Amway because it promotes false hopes and dreams and those hopes typically become financial losses for the vast majority.

Anonymous said...

I'm not looking to convince you of anything, and I agree that my experience is not the typical way it goes. For many years people have been taking this opportunity to take advantage of others, to sign people up without educating them on what the journey will look like and once they are signed up they forget about them. I don't do it that way (as I mentioned in a comment on another post)

I was approached before my current sponsor about an Amway opportunity and if I had gone through with it I probably would've had that typical experience, but I didn't, and when my sponsor approached me I saw something different that was worth exploring and I'm glad I did, but I still feel horrible for the people that have been taking advantage of and it hurts me that some good people that were looking for an honest way to get ahead were scammed and now they are scared of being open minded. And I'm not saying they should look at Amway or become my downline, but I've met people that don't want to try anything again since they were burned so badly and ended up deeper in debt :-(

Every time I meet with someone new I tell them: you don't have to do what I do, but I encourage you to look for something besides your job, at least as a safety net. And I actually have a friend that started his own company of Quality Testing after meeting with me :-D

Lorikeets said...

Hi anonymous,
You are certainly very patient to keep commenting here.

I just wanted to clairify how if your amway earnings have been in negative and you are in your first year of business (correct me if I misunderstood you there), you can somehow credit amway with your having 25k in the bank and being out of debt? Was that from amway or something else.

Also your stats sound more like the same old tired amway arguments rather than something you google searched. That one about the gym and the small business figures are rolled out as nauseum at amway (my own experience and reading multiple amway defenders like yourself) and while you aren't writing a paper you lose credibility when you use false info (small business) and unoriginal (gym) lines. So don't be surprised when you are called out on it or somehow act like inaccuracies don't matter that much after yours are highlighted.

Anonymous said...

@Lorikeets, I'm not crediting Amway for my financial situation, I'm crediting my mentors and the opportunity that I have of working with them. John Doe dismissed my retail/wholesale difference as a stupid thing and brainwash stuff, but that's part of what I did and I redirected my spending from other places to my own store and used that difference to fund my business expenses (which is more than enough). Then thanks to the budget my mentors helped me design I was able to pay off credit cards and car loans and then added money to my savings account, so there's an Amway component that has been pumping some bonuses and products, but the credit goes to the people that helped me out. I look forward to my bonuses increasing as I help more people like my mentors helped me (and it already has).

And as for the stats, here are the sources I found, I'm sorry if other people have used similar numbers but as you can see those pages are not affiliated with any MLM company whatsoever
http://www.successharbor.com/percentage-businesses-fail-09092015/
https://www.creditdonkey.com/gym-membership-statistics.html

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "I said not to attack it specifically because I don't want to spend time discussing a point that obviously you wouldn't understand (as you proved in your text)."

What point did I not understand? First of all, asking people not to be critical of your points when you publish them on a public forum AND admitting that you like debate, but don't want to debate things that make you look foolish...MAKES YOU LOOK FOOLISH. By simply stating, "I wouldn't understand", and then not showing how I misunderstood, you have demonstrated absolutely nothing of value and that is a kindergarten tactic to make yourself look better when you have been ousted.

You wrote how you believe going negative in your business was still okay because you are buying products at wholesale which is somehow equalizing the fact that you can't sell the products at retail. This is completely illogical and is brainwashing garbage your upline preached to keep you subservient.

Anonymous said, "Second, you mentioned that everyone can be successful in the gym, I still haven't seen anyone that tries to become Platinum and someone tells them "no, you can't do that, we're all out of Platinum pins" so I don't know what you mean there. Whoever wants to do it and works for it can get there, and that has been my experience in little over a year seeing many new Platinums just in the team I belong to. And I never said people were doomed to failure if they didn't do what I do. I would never say that, I'm just referring to what I've seen, people looking for the "comfort zone get rich" way usually don't cut it here."

Nobody has to tell them they can't do it because it is mathematically impossible for everyone to become platinum. In order to reach that rank you have to have a certain amount of people in your "team" (below you in the pyramid), and those people can't become platinum until they get people below them. That is the difference, and that is what makes Amway illegal. Is it possible to sell enough Amway products to become Platinum? Technically yes, but it has yet to be done and no diamond ever suggests that is the proper strategy to become successful because the "business" isn't about selling products, it is about tricking people to join your dream "opportunity".

Again, being successful in the gym is dependent SOLELY on your desire to work out regularly. Nobody is required to help you lose weight or build muscle, unlike becoming a platinum which requires, according to Joe, about 400 people (I personally have found that number to be closer to 1,000). Either way, they are entirely different, and if you can't get that basic concept, then again, you have been completely brainwashed.

Joecool said...

Anonymous @2:05,

You claim that your mentors helped you turn debt into savings. Now if they truly did, great for you.

I question how you can do that by redirecting your shopping to Amway. In neutral price comparisons, Amway products are generally more expensive with less quantity. So how would you be able to save money that way? And certainly not enough to turn a large debt into savings. The small bonuses you can earn are not enough to offset the cost. Amway mist charge more for their stuff because the IBO bonuses are built into the prices.

This story along with your gym comparison and inaccurate small business quotes sounds like textbook Amway LOS teaching. Yet you claim your "team" and mentors are different. I'm having great difficulty discerning any difference.

And yeah there are limits on Amway platinums. If everyone in the world signed up for Amway, only about 1 out of several hundred would make it, just like now, because nobody that I know of has ever gone platinum simply by selling Amway products.

Anonymous said...

@John Doe, Wow 400 people, that's a lot of people! My sponsor did platinum with less than 10% that amount! Now I understand more of where your negativity comes from

If that were true, in average your team is making 20 points per person, 1000 people you are talking 7.5 points per person! Sorry but either your numbers are wrong or you have a lot of people doing absolutely nothing, which means you shouldn't count them as part of your platinumship.

The minimum for you to get a bonus is 100 points, which means with 74 people (+ you) doing that you start platinum qualification. I don't know where your numbers come from.

In any case, I'm not going to reply to your comments if you keep focusing on personally attacking me. Just basing your reply on "you are brainwashed" is not useful at all (look up ad hominem attack and try to avoid it, it will make you a better debater)

@Joecool, like I said, it was a combination of factors, budgeting played a huge role there and their guidance on how to pay my debt was essential. You claim my team is the same, but earlier you said my team was not the typical team in Amway and I agree. But if you are going to put me in a bucket for the analogy I used rather than in a different place than everyone else because of the results my team has, I don't think this debate has any point.

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "John Doe dismissed my retail/wholesale difference as a stupid thing and brainwash stuff, but that's part of what I did and I redirected my spending from other places to my own store and used that difference to fund my business expenses (which is more than enough)."

Translation: Anonymous didn't understand that if he spends more money than he brings in, then he will be running a deficit, and Amway figured out a way to help him pay more attention to how the money was being spent while diverting a portion to monthly Amway purchases.

Anyone could have showed you how to monitor your expenses, and nobody else would make you spend monthly on products you can't sell. This is completely ridiculous! You may have needed to be taught how to run a budget, but this is the most expensive way to learn...

Anonymous said, "Then thanks to the budget my mentors helped me design I was able to pay off credit cards and car loans and then added money to my savings account, so there's an Amway component that has been pumping some bonuses and products, but the credit goes to the people that helped me out."

Again, if your parents and teachers didn't teach you that if you have 5 and you subtract 9 that you would be at a negative number, then you definitely got the shaft and should have had better teachers. However, thanking Amway for rigging a system in which they get paid monthly, regardless of your success, and then expecting people to give them credit for teaching you financial responsibility is RIDICULOUS! At what point do you say, "Oh darn, I spent too much money, maybe next month I won't spend so much.", and take some personal responsibility?

Anonymous, this is a basic knowledge that anyone could have shared with you, and while I understand people don't often have access to basic knowledge, with your level of occupation, it simply doesn't add up.

Joecool said...

"""@Joecool, like I said, it was a combination of factors, budgeting played a huge role there and their guidance on how to pay my debt was essential. You claim my team is the same, but earlier you said my team was not the typical team in Amway and I agree."""

I said your team was atypical because you said you made a profit and didn't do or say the things that other typical IBOs do and say.

But then you came up with the inaccurate SBA stats and the gym comparison which is what most new IBOs say to defend Amway.

Thus it leads me to believe that you're being taught the same stuff I heard when I was an IBO 20 years ago.

Anonymous said...

John Doe, let me explain to you what basic knowledge brought me.

I got a car loan because it made sense to get a new car with an interest rate as low as 2.5%. Then I got my wife a car as well. We also changed the carpet in our house because our foster dogs had messed it up and why not go for hardwood floor? In the end they are giving me a reasonable loan with 5% interest. Of course all these payments I could easily afford with my paycheck and everyone around me is doing the same things right? If you think I got in debt buying lottery tickets think again.

Now let's move on to marriage, common knowledge said we both needed our spaces, I needed my "man cave" for my hobbies and she needed her hobbies. I'm not going to get into all the trouble that we got from those decisions that everyone else around us was making.

Now, I know many people could've come to my life to help me out, but the truth is that 8 years after college and 6 years married and nobody did, except my sponsor. I'm not grateful to Amway, I'm grateful to the people that invested their time to help me figure a few things out. That showed me what we needed to work on to be a unified couple, that showed me that I don't need to change my car every 3 years and get a new loan, and helped me figure out a way to pay it all off and stay accountable to that budget.

Please don't try to insult me with basic math, most likely you also have car loans or mortgages or something similar because even financial planners tell you "it's good debt!" And it may very well be, but it feels so much better not to have it.

As for the products, you know? My first month in business I got a $62 bonus, not bad but still not a lot. My last few months after about a year have been of over $400 a month, considering my product purchases are a little over $1000 I believe that bonus more than offsets the "overprice" that you and Joecool mention. We'll see where this takes me, but so far I'm excited to share my experience with other people and help them achieve similar results.

As for reinvesting in training, I do that gladly! You know? I invest in myself not only for this business, I also have memberships in toastmasters, an astronomy club, a skepticism club, I buy different books about Astronomy and science and other topics I'm interested in. Regardless of being in this opportunity or not, knowing what I know now, I would still use part of my income for training of some sorts, so I use that part of my budget there, who cares?

Joecool said...

Do you have a lot of children? It sounds like you are personally doing about 300 PV and then you business is at about 1500 to 2500 PV overall volume. How does a married couple go through $1000 worth of products on a monthly basis?

I'm still trying to figure out how you can buy that dollar amount of Amway products and have enough money left over to pay off debts and end up with savings now.

Can you explain what you typically purchase in a month's time?

Lorikeets said...

Well thanks for clarifying your situation.
I'm not sure why those links don't work but they don't.

I just hope that if you continue in negative balance in amway you don't start accepting blame yourself for what is a statistically unfavourable model or stay in spending money because you are emotionally indebted to the people who have advised you as you've mentioned above.

Anonymous said...

We don't have children, my wife uses Artistry make up and we use the vitamins. That alone usually gets us close to 300 points, and we complete with protein bars and XS drinks. All of those things we used to buy before, so like I said before, we switched out consumption. And yeah it was a little more expensive than our X brands, but we were already buying quality expensive products out there before so the difference was not that big.

Like I said, budgeting was what helped us make it all possible, we stopped spending in stupid stuff for a while while we finished paying debt, like new clothes we didn't need or for me I stopped buying electronics like there is no tomorrow haha

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous @ 8:09 PM --

There is no such thing as "good debt." What kind of financial planner would tell you that being in debt is desirable?

Pay for something fully, or don't buy it at all.

Anonymous said...

Look, it seems to me you are looking for that "gotcha!" moment to show me how what I'm doing doesn't work. It is working for me, and while I get that it won't necessarily work for everyone, I believe there are a lot of people this will work for too. You may disagree with me and that's fine, in a few years we'll be able to look back and say "huh! I guess it did/didn't work after all!".

You won't make me quit, you won't show me how this doesn't work because even if I stopped right now, with my financial and marital situation I already won in this opportunity way more than anywhere else (I say opportunity because it's not only about Amway, it's mostly about the people I'm connected with). I am excited to help other people win the same way I've already won, and see where that takes me and my wife :-D

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "Wow 400 people, that's a lot of people! My sponsor did platinum with less than 10% that amount! Now I understand more of where your negativity comes from"

First of all, I think it is more than 400 people based on the numbers from Amway's income disclosure documents they posted a few years ago. They stopped posting them in recent years, and it is probably because the previous ones didn't look good and they have only gotten worse since Amway is in decline.

I'm not sure how that triggers my negativity toward Amway in your head, but I'll tell you exactly where it comes from. It comes from the a******* I saw on stage at the FED I attended in 2015 telling people to quit their jobs and focus on Amway. It comes from the Emerald I met that told me to leave my fiancee in order to be successful in Amway. It comes from the fact that over 99% of people lose money, yet they preach success is 100% possible for everyone. It comes from the fact that this is a glorified pyramid racket that has been involved in lawsuits repeatedly and was only able to survive based on outrageously large settlements, lobbying, and political infiltration (DeVos is currently Secretary of Education WOW!). My negativity comes from seeing good, honest, hard-working individuals that want to do something better for their families get warped and conned and lose their livelihoods in the pursuit of this garbage.

Anonymous said, "If that were true, in average your team is making 20 points per person, 1000 people you are talking 7.5 points per person! Sorry but either your numbers are wrong or you have a lot of people doing absolutely nothing, which means you shouldn't count them as part of your platinumship."

You clearly have never been in sales, but if you had, then you would understand that by and large the numbers are relatively dismal. There is no perfect system where everyone you sign up does exactly what you want them to do, especially in a racket like Amway. Simply choosing to ignore that is ridiculous, and you can't just not count members of your team because they choose not to help your "Platinumship"...Get real here.

Anonymous said, "In any case, I'm not going to reply to your comments if you keep focusing on personally attacking me. Just basing your reply on "you are brainwashed" is not useful at all (look up ad hominem attack and try to avoid it, it will make you a better debater)"

First of all, that is not an ad hominem attack. Ad hominem means - (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

I am telling you that nothing you are saying is novel, and your petty lines are showing you have been digesting too much of the Amway Kool-aid. If I wanted to perform an ad hominem attack I would simply call you an a******, a mother f******, or some other name that has no relevance to discussion. Calling you brainwashed because you are repeating lines, which according to Joe he heard over 20 years ago, is completely relevant and necessary.

Let's not go off the rails and start playing the emotional card.

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "I got a car loan because it made sense to get a new car with an interest rate as low as 2.5%. Then I got my wife a car as well. We also changed the carpet in our house because our foster dogs had messed it up and why not go for hardwood floor? In the end they are giving me a reasonable loan with 5% interest. Of course all these payments I could easily afford with my paycheck and everyone around me is doing the same things right? If you think I got in debt buying lottery tickets think again."

All of these numbers mean nothing without context. If I told you I got a 10% raise this year, but left out the fact that I went from $10.00 to $11.00 and hour it sounds much more exciting. You aren't dazzling me by throwing out some random percentages that mean absolutely nothing.

If you can easily afford to pay them off, and you aren't leveraging your capital in investments then why piss away money getting loans with interest rates? You don't understand the first thing about leveraging your money and shouldn't have been taking out loans without understanding how to get better value from your dollars. Again, this is very basic stuff and if you don't understand, then that is fine, but Amway is not the group to go to for financial advice.

Anonymous said, "Now let's move on to marriage, common knowledge said we both needed our spaces, I needed my "man cave" for my hobbies and she needed her hobbies. I'm not going to get into all the trouble that we got from those decisions that everyone else around us was making. "

I honestly have no idea why you wrote this, and couldn't care less. This statement without proper context is worthless and couldn't even begin to understand how this pertains to anything involving your debt.

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "Now, I know many people could've come to my life to help me out, but the truth is that 8 years after college and 6 years married and nobody did, except my sponsor. I'm not grateful to Amway, I'm grateful to the people that invested their time to help me figure a few things out. That showed me what we needed to work on to be a unified couple, that showed me that I don't need to change my car every 3 years and get a new loan, and helped me figure out a way to pay it all off and stay accountable to that budget."

I've already addressed this point in a previous post, but you seemed to have missed it so I'll reiterate. These Amwayers did not help you with anything special, they did not do it out of "The goodness of their hearts", and they simply rerouted part of your paychecks to their pockets. That isn't a great deal, that isn't even a good deal, and if you help to bring more people into the fold, then that is an absolutely awful deal. They found a person they could sucker that was vulnerable, and clearly you are still vulnerable as you come to this blog defending your precious group of abusers that are taking full advantage of the access to your paychecks. Again, they are only holding you "Accountable" to your budget because they want to make sure they get paid every month. When you stop paying them money, then they will disappear, and that by the way is a a challenge to see if they will really help you after you stop giving them your money. True friends wouldn't need your money to help you figure out basic budgeting.

Anonymous said, "Please don't try to insult me with basic math, most likely you also have car loans or mortgages or something similar because even financial planners tell you "it's good debt!" And it may very well be, but it feels so much better not to have it. "

It's not an insult if it is something necessary that you don't understand. Would you be insulted with a teacher after they corrected you on a concept you repeatedly got wrong? Or am I a special circumstance because we hold opposing views? Again, if you don't know how to leverage your dollars and make them more profitable for you while incurring a percentage penalty for a loan, then you are literally lighting money on fire. This is not a complicated subject!

Joecool said...

Anonymous said: """We don't have children, my wife uses Artistry make up and we use the vitamins. That alone usually gets us close to 300 points, and we complete with protein bars and XS drinks. All of those things we used to buy before, so like I said before, we switched out consumption. And yeah it was a little more expensive than our X brands, but we were already buying quality expensive products out there before so the difference was not that big."""

You're a fairly young married couple with no children but you consume about $1000 a month or about 300 PV per month in primarily cosmetics. vitamins and XS drinks. Did I summarize that correctly?

If that is correct, then you must have a lot of other disposable income because I don't see how buying products that cost more than other reasonable competitors can allow you to pay off debts and to save money. You can argue about taste, but XS is about the most expensive energy drink around. And the nutrilite vitamins cost much more than similar vitamins that can be bought at Costco or Target for a fraction of the cost.

If you and your wife can afford to spend $1000 a month on Amway consumables, then your "debt" was simply due to a lack of discipline.

Amway leaders may have "counseled" you to pay down debt (which is good), but not for any altruistic intentions. They do this to make sure you have enough funds to pay for your PV and to purchase cds and function/seminar tickets. It's for this very reason that I was told to recruit young professionals because the expense of 150 to 300 PV plus attending seminars wouldn't be such a challenge.

Have you ever done an honest and open minded price comparison on the products you typically use?

Anonymous said...

Joe, I already said that my Amway business was in negative numbers, I already said that I got out of debt thanks to a budget and being accountable abd disciplined, there's no new information here.

You know? I thought coming here would turn into a fun and productive conversation, but you guys are so negative that regardless of what I say you are just looking for the angle to attack, even when it's an already discussed point. It's like the news nowadays, doesn't matter if Trump did something ridiculously stupid, Fox News comes out to say he is the greatest, and when he does something good, CBS is there to say he is an idiot.

My dad always told me that there were people in the world trying to find what's wrong with everything, and you guys are a prime example of that. If I talk about the products, they are overpriced and terrible, I talk about the opportunity, it sucks because there is no way anyone can make it, I talk about the people that came to my life and helped me out when I needed help, they are horrible people just telling you basic stuff and not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts... you see?

I spent already too much time in this discussion, so this is my last paragraph (and take it however you want): I like the products, if they are overpriced then it's no different than Apple, Armani, Whole Foods, etc. and people buy those as well. I like the people I am involved with, they extended a hand when I needed one and even if they told me basic stuff, it was stuff I needed to hear and apply in my life and I am in a way better position in many areas now than before meeting them. And finally, I like the opportunity because even if not everyone can make it, I'm the kind of person that likes a challenge and if someone else did it, I don't see why I can't do it too.

Lorikeets said...

I'm sorry but you are just as unwilling to take on a different point of view. Please don't vilify everyone here as negative because we challenge you on amway. That is the attitude that will end up isolating you from people in your life not in amway. Acting as though you are reasonable good willed and sane while those who disgree with you are somehow unreasonable and beneath you is gas lighting and not a good look.
I'd be interested to hear from you in 2-3 years.

Rick said...

I am very happy to leave this blog cause it serves no purpose to go back an forth with people that had such a bad experience with Amway. You really need to think about what you are saying is mostly half truths therefore being a lie as to what Amway really is in reality. One of the biggest problems with Amway is anyone can start an Amway business, this allows good people as well as bad people to join. You obviously had a bad upline who were not going by the rules of conduct. When Joecool said he wasn't profitable at 4000pv because his upline told him to invest all his profit back in tools. That told me from my experience with a guy in my upline who was trying to get me to do that. That guy is no longer in the business because that was totally wrong and against Amway's rules of conduct. He was basically trying to impress our upline Diamond at how he was building his business. Several of us got with our Diamond and reported him, our Diamond told us that he was way of base.
Again I'm sorry you had a bad experience with what I would say were bad people who were only thinking of themselves. What you are saying about Amway are not at all the truth so I do wish you find better things to do with your time. Because if you deter just one person from taking advantage of the Amway opportunity you have done an injustice to that person. I wish above all that you prosper and be in good health even as your soul prospers. Have a nice life. Rick

Joecool said...

Rick you accuse of us saying half truths but fail to identify what that is. On the other had, I have presented bona fide facts, provided by Amway corporation, that showed how utterly futile an Amway business is. Just the fact that 54% of IBOs don't do anything is a loud and bold statement.

I had a bad upline? Well, those bad upline diamonds have been in Amway since the 1980's and they are still there. So there you have it, bad uplines stay there and continue to teach bad practices and the only one who can hold them accountable (Amway), looks the other way.

You never mentioned who your upline diamond was but somehow suspect they ae no different than my former upline diamond.

Amway folks always talk about some "good" Amway but can never prove that it exists. Instead, when their ideals get questioned, they leave the forum because they have run out of facts to back them up. But of course, that's their choice.

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "You know? I thought coming here would turn into a fun and productive conversation, but you guys are so negative that regardless of what I say you are just looking for the angle to attack, even when it's an already discussed point."

Same old tired excuse to stop participating. You have run out of counterpoints to what we have said, and now you have chosen to label us as a final ploy to escape with your denial. We aren't "attacking", we are providing our point of view based on research and facts. When you attempt to BS us with some programmed crap that has been repeated throughout the Amway history books for over 20 years, then we know how to respond. If you try and BS us with some bad logic for why Amway is a good "business" to run in the red, then we will show you how you are wrong. If you try and claim Amway somehow gave you wonderful mentors that have great financial expertise, then we will show you how they have a financial bias and no educational background to support this theory.

This is how the conversation has gone, and now you have become another part of the 4 D's statistic. First you defended Amway with your programmed rhetoric, then you denied that your Amway group is the same as the rest, then you distracted the points by attempting to go off on tangents involving supposed "Ad Hominem" attacks and "Negativity" mumbo jumbo. Finally you are preparing to disappear as every pro-Amwayer has done.

You aren't original, you aren't unique. You are another cog in the machine, and as you have taken a taste of the red pill to try and get out of the Matrix, you have realized you aren't ready yet and decided you want to be re plugged in. It's always sad to see people choose to go back, but it isn't your time to exit.

John Doe said...

Anonymous said, "My dad always told me that there were people in the world trying to find what's wrong with everything, and you guys are a prime example of that."

This exact thing can be said about you. You have tried to find any possible flaw in our position on this topic and failed. You didn't come to reach a conclusion based on reasonable discourse, but rather wanted to take a shot at swaying people to join your point-of-view. You did not enter this discussion with an open-mind but rather an agenda. Now that this agenda has failed, it is time for you to make one last frivolous post for disappearing.

Anonymous said, "I like the products, if they are overpriced then it's no different than Apple, Armani, Whole Foods, etc. and people buy those as well."

Ah, one more bad analogy before the door hits you on the way out. They are not the same, not even close. All of the stores you listed above generate their revenue by actually selling a product and people vote with their dollars to keep them in business. Amway does not generate revenue the same way, but rather hides in the shadow and teaches people how to recruit. Nobody that works at Whole Foods makes money from selling the "Whole Foods Dream" of being a distributor of Whole Foods' Products, and Whole Foods doesn't grow based on more people becoming Whole Foods Distributors. Again, these are basic differences that brainwashed Amwayers fail to recognize because they are blinded by the "Opportunity" and those "Good" or "Wholesome" MLMers that generate their revenue based on "Helping" you to "succeed".

Anonymous said, "And finally, I like the opportunity because even if not everyone can make it, I'm the kind of person that likes a challenge and if someone else did it, I don't see why I can't do it too."

I challenge you to think critically about what has been said on this blog! I challenge you to mention the points I have made to your upline and not take some riddle, technical jargon, or lie as an answer. I challenge you to hold your upline and Amway accountable for everyone involved in the "Business", and to not let them continue to have "Bad Apples" or other mischievous dealings! I challenge you to be a responsible member of society and make money based on a good or service rather than a dream. I challenge you!

Lorikeets said...

Rick I hope you visit here every day!

John Doe said...

Rick said, "I am very happy to leave this blog cause it serves no purpose to go back an forth with people that had such a bad experience with Amway"

Goodbye Rick! You won't be missed!

Rick said, "You really need to think about what you are saying is mostly half truths therefore being a lie as to what Amway really is in reality."

How about you actually point to a supposed "half truth" and correct it instead of making this asinine generalized statement. We will be able to take you a lot more seriously and have a better discussion if you give us something to work with, but you are on your way out...so it doesn't really matter.

Rick said, "One of the biggest problems with Amway is anyone can start an Amway business, this allows good people as well as bad people to join. You obviously had a bad upline who were not going by the rules of conduct."

Okay, we have recognized a problem. There is no barrier to entry which is never good for any business. This is good stuff Rick! Unfortunately that is only half of the problem you need to address. The other half of the problem is the lack of accountability Amway has for those supposed "Bad People" and the lack of action or care to discipline or remove those "Bad People". Let's make some great changes Rick with these problems we have identified!

Rick said, "That told me from my experience with a guy in my upline who was trying to get me to do that. That guy is no longer in the business because that was totally wrong and against Amway's rules of conduct. He was basically trying to impress our upline Diamond at how he was building his business. Several of us got with our Diamond and reported him, our Diamond told us that he was way of base. "

Okay, more good stuff! You are reporting bad people, unfortunately to the wrong person, but at least you are trying to do something about it. This is more good stuff Rick! Now then, why did you not make your Diamond more accountable for discipline? Your diamond simply stating, "he was way of[f] base", is not enough. That person should have been reprimanded or removed. Don't just let them use their words, be a man of action!

Rick said, "What you are saying about Amway are not at all the truth so I do wish you find better things to do with your time. Because if you deter just one person from taking advantage of the Amway opportunity you have done an injustice to that person."

Rick!!! Stop saying we aren't telling the truth unless you are going to point to what is not the truth! This is silliness! You can't just call someone a liar and not back it up with something.

I beg to differ. Every person that is stopped from the "Amway opportunity" is a person that has a chance to do a real service for society. Again, according to the Amway income disclosure statement, 99% of people would be more productive flipping burgers at McDonald's or mowing someone's grass. Let that sink in for a while.