Conflict Of Interest?

 Over my Amway and blogging experience, I have come to a conclusion which I will stand by. And this, in my informed opinion, is a significant problem with the Amway opportunity. The Amway owner, Rich Devos acknowledged this issue back in 1983 in his "directly speaking" tape and unfortunately, nothing apparently substantial was ever done and therefore, the problem exists today.

The Amway opportunity is one part of the issue, with the tools systems being the other prong. Over the years, the Amway opportunity and the tools systems have formed a symbiotic relationship. It is as if Amway needs the system, and the system needs Amway. What I mean is that Amway provides the opportunity, and then the system uses the opportunity to sell the system. In the meantime, the system leaders teach 100 PV, product loyalty, and do most if not all of the new IBO recruiting. Amway benefits as the system teaches movement of PV whether by sales or self consumption, and new IBO recruitment, and the system leaders benefit by having a captive audience to sell their cds, books, seminars, voicemail, and website fees.

A conflict of interest occurs when uplines tell their new IBOs that they "need" to attend a certain function, or that they "need" standing order to succeed. The upline is smart enough not to say the system is "required", but certainly, they will put a defacto requirement by saying things such as nobody has ever succeeded without the system, but you can try to be the first, or they may say the system is optional, but so is success. Of someone may say so and so diamond (insert) name is a multi millionaire and he advocates the system, but you can go against his advice if you think you know better.

The bigger problem is that these upline leaders will tell you that you basically cannot succeed without these tools, but at the same time, the more tools you buy, the more profit these uplines make. Some Amway apologists will justify this by saying a college professor may sell his own books to his students. But this is not the same thing. A college professor may spend years researching to write that one book. He will be teaching his expertise that is written in the book. When you attend seminars or listen to cds, you do not have one expert guiding you with clear documentation on how they succeeded. You have very general generic experiences coming from various speakers who may or may not have any common background with IBOs. Thus these upline leaders will profit from their downline IBO volume and also from tools that they advise downline to purchasem regardless of downline success or progress in the business.

As evidence of these bad practices by upline, consider this. If upline truly has "valuable" information that would help you succeed, they would get that information to you in whatever means they could. Either by email, facebook, twitter, text message, MP3, Youtube or whatever. Why would they withhold trade secrets if they really wanted your success? Has it ever occured to IBOs that maybe uplines don't want your success? Maybe it is why you must pay for any piece of advice or support you receive. Maybe upline is perfectly happy with people coming and going as long as there are tool purchases because then there are no new IBOs (platinums and up) to share the tool profits with.

There is a definite conflict of interest with profiting uplines advising you to buy tools. The question if whether you see it or not?

Amway Saves Marriages?

 http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/will-amway-make-you-annoying/comment-page-12/#comment-92192

■DoAsISay on January 8th, 2012 9:31 pm
I finally decided to search the web after being out of Amway now since February 2011. I was hesitant to do so because I had been told not to so many times by my uplines that there is negative on the internet even about Mother Teresa. That was the “line” that they used to trick me into not doing my research. I am a college graduate with a bachelors degree in accounting and I was taught to always research a company to learn more about them if you are going to be involved with them. Anyways, I am glad that I did because I now realize that I am not the only one who disagrees with Amway and their approaches to “the business”.

A little more background about my situation which I’m sure is not unique to many others who have been in Amway. My girlfriend and I were introduced to this business by a friend of my girlfriend and her husband. From the presentation that was shown to me I thought that it sounded VERY easy to do. I was told that I only needed 3 friends out of my 200 contacts in my phone to want to save money and make money at the same time. That was the first lie that I later found out. First of all, we didnt save any money. We threw away over $7000 and saw under $300 return. How exactly am I saving money? Secondly, IF, IF you get (trick) 3 friends to signed up, you have alot more work to do than that. Try 50 people and by the time u get 50 people involved, 48 of those will have quit once they finally realize that you took advantage of them and weren’t straight forward with them.

So Time went on and I hung around and observed the behaviors of people in Amway and how they talked. I said to myself, I want to be nothing like these people. They all sounded the same to me and it was just a little weird. Finally I realize that they have all been brainwashed how to think, how to spend their money, who they spend their time with, and how they spend their time. Amway with the help of the “EDUCATION” has completely taken control of the lives of many, many naive, weak minded, gullible, ignorant, or too trusting (you fill in the blank) individuals who worship their upline like they are God. Sure I thought it was cool that I knew a millionaire and got to hang out at his house and all, but Im not going to empty my bank account for anyone! How about this line…”You don’t make money FROM your friends when they get involved, Your making money WITH your friends”. WHAT?!? Last time I checked anyone you sponsor in the business, you collect their business volume from the stuff they buy and get a kickback from those purchases. I believe that’s called making money FROM your friends. They have another sneaky tactic that they use to conceal the truth. “You’re not making money from your friends, Amway is paying you for driving volume to their website. Ok, Yeah that’s still making money from your friends. Im not an idiot and your blender of words and phrases don’t have any effect on me.

Back to November 2010, I got married to my girlfriend I was in the business with and shortly after she became an Ambot as I’ve heard people refer to it. In February 2011, i had enough of it and decided to cut my loses and get out. My wife didn’t share the same thoughts and feelings though because she had been soaking in every last drop of the expensive “Education” we were receiving. Up until the point of me getting out of the business since I had known her, we NEVER had an argument. We were inseparable and much in love. That all changed as time progressed. We started disagreeing and this horrible person came out of her as I never seen before. She physically hit me on 3 occasions and we would fight, mostly her, as I like to be calm and collective. I rather reason things out by gathering the facts and explaining my perspective. Her reasoning went out the door with her mind because everything out of her mouth was something about the business.

I spent many nights home alone waiting for her to get back from those stupid waste of time meetings. Eventually in October I had enough. We got in another fight and she asked me to leave, so I did! Now supposedly when a woman says leave, that means dont leave in translation, but I took it at face value and left. We are currently separated and in the process of filing for a dissolution. I never thought Amway could destroy a marriage like that, but I’ve read so many sad stories where has done just that. Like I said, I’m sure my story isn’t a unique one, but I just wanted to share in hopes that I can TRULY HELP people steer clear of this plague. Not only will it empty your bank account, waste time you could be living your life and enjoying the company of family and true friends, it will destroy your relationships with the ones you love. These people that were in our business call themselves Christians, yet they can easily let a marriage be destroyed and not even flinch. Greed and lies are all I see in these people!

I would like to sit my wife down and show her some information so maybe, just maybe she will snap out of it, but I feel like she is so programmed at this point that I won’t be able to get her to read it. If anybody actually reads my entire story (I know its long) and has any advice on getting her out let me know. I got nothing to lose at this point since I’ve pretty much lost the love of my life.

The Real Cost?

 One of the common things Amway leaders apparently do is to disparage people with jobs. Oh, they would say we needed people to wait on our tables and clean our toilets, but in general, jobs were put down and basically the group was told that Amway is their best chance at achieving financial freedom, giving them the ability to flush their jobs. Ironically, IBO's jobs are what funds their Amway businesses. Most IBOs would be out of business within weeks if not for their job income funding their Amway businesses.

The key selling point appears to be the 2-5 years of part time work rather than working a job for 30 - 40 years and then retiring on social security which may or may not be there when you retire. This plants a fear in people about the future and then the Amway opportunity is presented in a positive light because the Amway opportunity comes with a low start up cost. What uplines do not mention is how the opportunity can become a money pit as the monthly defacto 100 PV quota starts to add up. It is my guess that if people only bought items they truly needed, these IBOs would likely move 100 PV every three months, unless they are actively selling goods to non IBO customers. With Amway products being so concentrated and efficient as IBOs claim, why would you need to replenish these products so often?

When an IBO finally agrees to register, it is then that the true, but hidden costs are revealed. Many uplines will introduce standing orders and functions and present these tools as vital to IBO success. Most new IBOs don't know better and feel subtle pressure to conform and give it a try. Some upline may loan some tools to downline in the beginning but eventually, the IBO will be encouraged to be a "serious" business owner who should be purchasing their own tools to loan to their downline and the cycle goes on. There is also the cost of additional cds, books, voicemail and other business related costs that are not mentioned until later which the prospect doesn't necessarily know prior to start up.

If you examine some version of the Amway recruitment plan, you will see that most IBOs are at the 100 PV level, which will reward you with a monthly bonus of about $10 or so. If that same IBO subscribes to the tools system, than IBO will likely be losing over $100 to $250 a month not including the cost of the product purchases. And because many IBOs have been convinced that working a job is so horrible, that they can be convinced that this condition of losing money is temporary and that untold wealth is right around the corner. Sadly, for most, this condition is the norm and even the sponsorship of a few downline, the losses continue to mount. Yet many are convinced that this is better than a job. And this is just the financial cost, not the time and effort spent pursuing a false hope and dream that Amway IBOs and recruiters promote.

Ironically, a job allows people to pay their monthly bills, feed their families and many people enjoy their work and co workers. While upline leaders may convince you otherwise, it is this very same excuse upline leaders use when asked why they are still working instead of walking the beaches of the world collecting massive amounts of residual income. I would encourage IBOs to truly analyze their efforts in Amway and determine if it is beneficial to your finances. In most cases, your Amway efforts ONLY benefits your upline's finances. For most who get involved, the Amway opportunity is not better than a job.

A Diamond Is Forever?

 I've seen some interesting discussion recently about how a diamond pin is like winning a gold medal. That you don't get it taken away from you later even if you don't qualify anymore. The discussion also flowed as to where they mentioned that former US President Jimmy Carter is still addressed as Mr. President. Or that someone with a Superbowl ring can be addressed as a Superbowl champion. While I agree with that to some degree, I think the issue of diamond or former diamond is significant and different from former President Carter or a former Superbowl Champion. Terry Bradshaw or Joe Montana don't parade around as if they just won the Superbowl last year.

The diamond pin is a significant achievement for sure. Seems that recently, it's even harder to achieve in North America. I don't know of more than a few new diamonds emerging in the last twenty years or so in the US. But if say a diamond qualified in 1988 and never qualified again, how would you as an IBO feel about paying to see this diamond speak function after function and how many would continue to buy standing orders from a guy who may have achieved diamond 20 years ago and never again? Would the audiences be "fired up" to see these speakers? I find this ironic also, because many Amway defenders like to criticize Amway critics for having an outdated experience. Well, conversely, a one time diamond would be basically the same thing. If not, then Joecool should command the respect of a 4000 PV Eagle since that was my highest level.

I actually have no issue with Amway allowing the achiever to carry their highest pin as a recognized achievement, but I do believe that those who use their former pin status to exploit and profit from new IBOs and prospects should be stopped. I know I would not have been so excited attending a function where the keynote speaker went diamond for 6 months a decade ago and was no longer qualified. Else, by upline's definition, he will teach me to go diamond and fall apart? I believe there are fewer North American diamonds now than twenty years ago. Some diamonds resigned and some outright quit. So much for residual/passive income. Obviously if these things existed, then nobody would quit or walk away from residual income.

BTW, an article on an Amway Corporate website says this about passive income:
"Passive income is a term we do not permit distributors to use and it’s not a term the Corporation uses. In our business, there is no such thing as doing no work, and expecting money to still come in.” Link:
http://blogs.amway.com/answers/2010/11/02/unwelcome-words/#comments

Still think there's a free ride at the end of the tunnel?

A Letter To Amway?

 This is an open letter basically explaining Joecool's position and why in my opinion, criticism of Amway doesn't stop. (Reprinted from 2011)

Dear Amway,

Why does criticism of Amway continue Ad Nauseum? Because you have not taken any apparent visible action(s) against higher level IBOs who make their living by ripping off unsuspecting prospects and faithful downline by feeding them lines about how easy it is to build an Amway business and how they can ditch their jobs and live on easy street. I saw it and there are countless testimonies and experiences posted on the internet.

When I was an IBO in WWDB, we were fed outright lies by upline. Nobody made any money from tools being the biggest. Downline were taught how long they could string out their mortgages or electric bills so they can attend functions and buy more tools. Yes, IBOs have culpability as well, but the culture of these groups is one of trust and loyalty to the diamonds. Amway's owner, Mr. DeVos acknowledged this in his 1983 speech "directly speaking". But despite the speech, no apparent visible action was taken, thus status quo continued. Even the accreditation system which seemed nice on the surface appears to be a farce. I believe that possibly millions of people over the years have been adversely affected financially because of some of these Amway IBO leaders.

Many of the same leaders who lied to benefit themselves are still at it. A fellow blogger named "Rocket" at one time, reported a possible violation where crown ambassador and IBOAI member, Brad Duncan is caught on tape claiming that IBOs can make "hundreds of thousands of dollars" a month in Amway. Your response was to make non sensical remarks and then eventually no response when pressed for one. I also reported a WWDB IBO who was making disparaging and false statements about some competitor's products while making misleading positive statements about Amway products. Your response was no response and my comment wasn't even published on your "Amway Answers" blog. Ironically, one of the topics on that blog was about how Amway doesn't turn a blind eye to problems. Yeah, you can say it but your actions show something else.

Maybe someone can explain why actions in other countries indicate that the folks who sell Amway tools are scammers. For some reason, the regulatory agencies in the US have not taken notice of the tools business. The Dateline segment in 2004 exposed the tools and systems. It became a big debate on the internet with critics and proponents. While Amway can claim innocence because the unethical actions were taken by IBOs, or "independent" business owners, I still believe that Amway has a responsibility to reign is some of the sales force that represents them.

Food for thought: Joe Paterno was an assistant and head coach, an icon at Penn State University for more than 60 years. He was fired some time ago because he had knowledge of child abuse occuring at the program under his watch. While he was not personally guilty of this, and did many good things for Penn State and the community, still his inactions may have caused harm to befall innocent children. Ultimately, he had the ability and power to stop the wrongdoing but did not. It is a sad ending for a man who many consider a legend. I wish his family well.

Amway can reign in the tool abuse and take control of some of the bad leaders, but apparently has not and will not. The fight goes on.....

An Amway Christmas?

 On the internet, I've seen some interesting stuff that some past IBOs have done. Such as talking about how the malls are crowded and why bother with all the hassle when you can shop on Amway.com? I guess if you don't mind paying through your teeth you can shop at Amway.com and get your Christmas shopping done. I can imagine the looks on the faces of your family when they receive a bottle of LOC or a box of SA8 when others are receiving Xbox games and/or gift cards for their favorite restaurants or movie tickets. There's nothing wrong with buying gifts from Amway of course, but overdoing it can make things weird with your friends and family.

I'm not sure about Amway's current gift catalog programs, but I recall purchasing those items at Christmas to give to family and friends. Afterall, you have to build that PV right? Looking back, I wonder if my family and friends thought I was cheap or brainwashed with those kinds of gifts? But hey, as an IBO, you do it to support your business. So, what if you spent $500 to get 100 or 200 PV? Your "broke" friends and family won't be getting that $12 check in the month following December, right? You get "paid" to shop.

One of the things our upline taught the group was that there's rarely a "day off" when you're in Amway. Sure, you might relax on Christmas day but you need to get off your duff and back on the recruiting trail so you can work on fulfilling your dreams. Afterall, you want to eventually walk away from your evil boss and dead end job and spend time at the beach with your "awesome" upline mentors. Do IBOs ever wonder why their upline mentors don't spend time at the beach and instead are out showing the plan and speaking at functions, even at Christmas? I used to see our upline diamond in his car, wearing a suit frequently. I thought why he didn't just take a month's vacation at Christmas. My sponsor said he was so focused on helping the downline "get free", that he didn't take time off. Looking back, I believe he was busy because he had to. Our former diamond (Harimoto) was a dedicated ocean lover. I wonder why he up and moved to Washington (State) in the Pacific Northwest? Maybe he enjoys a white Christmas? Or maybe he couldn't recruit enough people in Hawaii? I don't know but that move seems odd to me.

Anyway, for the IBOs out there... It's nearly Christmas. Lighten up. You can take a break from recruiting family and friends into Amway. Just enjoy the company and fellowship with your loved ones. Don't have undermining thoughts of showing them the plan. I can nearly assure you that your social gatherings will have less tension and that you will enjoy yourself more. Your loved ones are likely to enjoy having you around also instead of wondering what you have up your sleeve.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Bad Amway Leaders?

 Over the many years of Amway's existence, their reputation in the US and Canada has tanked. And it's not due to Amway the corporation, but rather Amway IBO leaders who teach and condone unethical behavior. Of course, I don't know of any significant measures that Amway has taken to discipline some of their wayward IBOs, but that's another story. However, it's apparent to me that some Amway leaders really are just not good people. They will do and say anything even lie to recruits to make a buck off them. They will sell false hopes and dreams to make their living.

During my blogging career, I've seen young people who were discouraged from attending college so they could build an Amway business. I've personally seen people go bankrupt and lose their homes because they followed the advice of their all-knowing uplines. Sure, people have some responsibility for their actions, but I feel as if some of these kinds of actions by some IBOs and IBO leaders is predatory and focuses on people who can least afford to funnel money into the business and the leech teaching systems such as WWDB or Network 21. Downlines are taught to trust in their upline and to follow their advice, and to make it worse, the uplines then blame the IBOs for any failures.

I've seen ridiculous product claims such as people claiming that bottled water could cure ills and make you athletically superior. Of course, this water (Amway perfect water) costs about $50 a case when you could buy 8-10 cases of water at WalMart for the same price. They claim superiority in their vitamins without unbiased scientific evidence to support their claims. Perhaps that is why the Amway vitamins seemingly are consumed nearly exclusively by IBOs themselves. Nobody except IBOs buy the stories and the prices of Amway diamonds.

Despite claims by Amway supporters and IBOs that things are changing in Amway for the better, there is plenty of evidence that nothing has changed. Outrageous income claims. I thought the Dateline show in 2004 exposed some crazy stuff with an IBO leader claiming that people could earn $250K per year with a part time effort, but then my friend Rocket (another blogger) finds this gem with an IBOAI member and crown ambassador in WWDB/Amway claiming you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a month: http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2011/09/amway-guys-they-sure-say-stuff.html

I wonder if Brad Duncan himself even makes that kind of money. Ironically, his triple diamond brother (Greg) wasn't even close to that when his chapter 7 bankruptcy papers were exposed in 2009.
To Amway prospects and apologists, the Amway corporation itself may be perfectly legal, but the root of many evils comes from Amway uplines and AMO leaders. It is for this very reason that many get turned off just at the mention of the Amway name. Amway can stop them, but they don't.

Maximize Your Earnings In Amway?

 How to maximize your earnings in Amway? Simple, get your downline to attend more functions. Functions that you run and profit from! If your downline attends the same function twice, you earn twice as much! Even better, get your downline to make it his own idea! Our friend Shaun has been taken hook line and sinker.  And as a side note, I wish Shaun and his family well, but he quit Amway not too long after this post was made more than ten years ago.  That's the insidious part about upline.  They use clever psychology to get people to do things then blame themselves for the failure even they are following upline's sage advice.

http://expeditionoftruths.com/2012/01/06/2012-dream-nights/


Wait wait wait, did you say Dream Nights as in plural? More than one? That can’t be, how can you possibly go to more than one Dream Night? My upline must be forcing me or cohering me into attending more than one and after all it’s just the same thing each night. Just who does World Wide Group think they are having these multiple Dream Nights, two in Edmonton and one in Calgary, and others across Canada. But wait, there’s more! A Dream Night in Saskatoon?? What? Growth in another province? It must be all those Edmonton people driving 6 1/4 hours, 525 KM’s just to make that dream night happen earlier this week. So does that mean people are attending 4 different dream nights? When does it end? Will the excitement ever stop? I better contact Amway, World Wide Group, The Police, FTC, Alert the presses cause this is just madness.

No it’s not, it’s called growth and I have a confession to make, I attended or will be attending two Dream Nights this week. Yup, it’s true. Out of our own free will without any cohesion, guilt, pressure, etc… we attended last night and will be attending tonight. Both nights, different venue’s and different speakers, in fact because of growth they’ve had to move one of the nights to the Shaw Conference Centre. If there wasn’t growth in this area that would seem like overkill or a waste of money to put it up there don’t you think? To be honest I don’t know how many people are attending each event as I’m not function hosting and who’s going to more than one, quite frankly I don’t care. I care about my wife and our business only.

Where Are The Retirees?

 I have heard or read that Amway has something like 3 million IBOs worldwide and several hundreds of thousands of IBOs in the US and Canada. Over 50 plus years, Amway must have had tens of millions of IBOs or more.  One of the selling points that many people use in promoting Amway is how you can build your business once (and right) and walk away from the business and collect residual income forever, willable to your future generations and recession proof. At least that's how it was presented, and still apparently presented these days.

What I find extremely odd is how these Amway retirees seem to vanish off the face of the earth. I mean the diamonds either quit, resign, or continue to work. Even all the crown ambassadors are still working or passed away while on still on duty. Seems odd that someone can have the option of walking away from their Amway business while boatloads of cash keep rolling in. Freedom to golf, travel, have fun and do anything you want, whenever you feel like it. But why do diamonds quit or resign? Why don't any of the big pins exercise the option to walk away? Various defenders of Amway claim there are many people who have exercised this option, but nobody has been able to name even a few of them, or one of them for that matter.  Keep in mind that the folks making this claim are likely lying or making it up because only Amway would know who is getting paid, although Amway wouldn't know what kind of effort was made to maintain the business. In other words, claims of people building an Amway business and then collecting significant residual income is a claim that cannot be substantiated, not even by Amway. And I will say this: Amway doesn't advertise this as an IBO benefit. Current IBOs and prospects should think long and hard about this.

I know of retired firefighters, teachers, lawyers, doctors, government workers, accountants, business owners and just about any occupation you can think of. A friend of mine recently retired from a construction material salesman position. Most of them have their homes paid off, and live comfortably on pensions, savings and other assets and investments. They are not dead or broke by age 65. Sure, I do know of some people who are around the age of 65 who are not doing as well financially, but none of them are starving, needing government assistance or working at WalMart out of necessity. I believe this is a scare tactic used by Amway promoters who want you to think that your only hope for financial security is by running an Amway business. Sadly, for most, the result is net losses because of the "systems".

I've asked before, I'll ask again. 50 plus years, possibly tens or hundreds of millions of IBOs. Where are these Amway IBO retirees? Do they actually exist or are they as legendary as the Sasquatch?

Amway Recruitng Tactics?

 I will admit I haven't been accosted by any Amway representatives lately. I'm certain they still exist and I'm certain some of the recruiting tactics used back in the day are still used now. When I had my first brush with Amway, I was outright lied to about attending a "beer bust". I showed up at my friend's house ready for some beer and chips and I get stuck in a stinking Amway meeting. I remember sitting in the meeting still ticked off about it and to make it worse, the presenter also spoke about association and how we would be left behind if we don't join because our friend in Amway would have to associate with Away folks, who were destined to become rich. There was no beer to be had so our gang left and went out to a local pub for some beer. That was my first brush with Amway.

My second brush with Amway was a high school acquaintance who saw me working at my second job at the local market and asked if I was interested in making more money. I told him I was doing just that with a second job. I asked if he was pitching Amway and he admitted he was. I asked him if actually made any money at it and he admitted he had not. I told him to come back and see me if he was still involved and making money a few months later. I have never seen him again to this day.

I finally did get sucked into Amway when an old friend of mine joined and prospected me. So I ask him if he's made money and he said no. I also told him to come back and show me later if he makes money. He came back 6 months later and said he was now a direct distributor and making about $1500 to $2000 a month. He said it was easy and he could show me how to do it. Being a man of my word, I saw the plan and I signed up. I was still a bit skeptical, but I got in and the rest is history. (My story is on this blog)

But what I saw were dishonest Amway tactics. We were told to give half truths (lies) to prospects. We were told to fake it will we make it (lies) and the upline used all kinds of angles to make Amway seem better than it was. Older but unsuccessful IBOs were told that Amway was more than about money. That we were making lifelong friends and becoming nicer and better people. That were were a small army making the world a better place. (How is the world better when you deceive people to make your upline rich?). We were told that Amway saves and strengthens marriage (even though our upline Diamond got divorced (Wolgamott).

Despite all the tactics and tricks used by our Amway upline, there was little to no success to speak of. Even our former upline Diamond (Harimoto) moved to the mainland (Hawaii is too expensive? Not enough people to recruit?) and it was hard to believe, seeing that he loved the ocean and ocean activities.

Amway sales and revenues have dipped about 25% since 2014 and I can only imagine it will get worse as the antics and tactics used by upline are easily recognizable and ineffective at this point. The internet also made access to information so readily available that prospects can easily find pertinent information and have enough disclosure to make an informed decision about Amway. And that's why Joecool's blog still exists to this day.

Level Playing Field?

 The Amway business is a level playing field. At least that's what my upline told us when I was an IBO. That everyone starts at zero. While that is somewhat true, there were other factors that existed, that most IBOs did not know about. That factor is the possibility of PV manipulation. I believe that groups that are not on direct fulfillment (Groups still calling in and picking up) are able to transfer PV around. Thus, certain groups or favored downline could be manufactured into higher pins. I believe most groups are currently on direct fulfillment, but I did confirm about less than a year ago that some groups still are on call in and pick up.

But let's examine the concept that everyone starts at zero. While this aspect may be true, certain people are simply better at selling, or better and more adept at socializing and talking to others. So, while your PV count may be zero, the skills needed to start and run a business is not a level playing field for most. I believe uplines state this to give prospects the idea that everyone has an equal chance at succeeding in Amway. I just cannot believe this to be true. Even current diamonds, while having achieved a certain level, probably could not "start at zero" again and build a diamond business.

Thus, when you really think about it, the "old timers" of the diamonds should actually be given less credibility than the newer ones. Do you really believe that a diamond or higher pin who built his business in the 1970's can really teach people in 2016 how to build the business in a way to address people in 2016, and the fact that the business is mostly internet based as opposed to the old days, not to mention the advance of social media, text messaging and other modern forms of communication.

It is easy to stand on stage, tell people how great you are, show off material wealth and then tell prospects that everyone starts at zero and that anyone can build the business. I do not believe that it is true. I also strongly suspect that very few (if any) of the current diamonds would be able to "start at zero" and build a new diamond ship here in the US, where the reputation and shrinking sales would be handicaps too great to overcome for the vast majority of prospective IBOs. I recall back in 2005 or 2006, WWDB had a commitment for personal growth amongst the diamonds and above. I do not believe much fruit was grown out of that effort. The diamonds had committed to duplicating their groups to prove it could be done. Not a single one of them, as far as I know, advanced to a significantly higher level (i.e. diamond to double diamond).

If Amway Products Are So Good......?

 It appears to me that Amway sales globally have been tanking. Amway peaked at 11.8 billion in 2013 and has decreased each year, coming in at 8.6 billion in 2017. That's about a 25% decrease over 5 years. This is something that Amway IBOs used to enjoy bragging about but with a slowdown in foreign expansion, we are seeing sales drop significantly. I believe Amway is reaching market saturation with their products and reputation and the big declines back up what I believe to be true.  Even in 2022, Amway sales were at 8.1 billion which means they are nowhere near their best year from 10 years ago.  

Many IBOs and Amway defenders claim that Amway products are simply the "best".  Some even go so far as to call Amway product superior to big box retailer's products. In the past, some unbiased reviews (including consumer reports) of Amway products compared to name brand had some Amway goods rated as average, some were very expensive, and some were satisfactory. Of course, quality is subjective, and it certainly seems that whether or not one is an Amway IBO determines that quality.

But here's the definitive question. If Amway products are so good, why do former IBOs rarely continue to buy them? I mean Amway sales would continue to climb steadily each year if former IBOs kept buying products. And here's another angle on all of this. If some former IBOs do purchase Amway goods, I would bet that they do not purchase 100 PV or more each month as they do when they are IBOs. It would appear that uplines are able to manipulate or create an artificial demand for Amway products among the active IBOs. This is a point of contention between Amway defenders and Amway critics because an artificial demand toes the line on legality issues.  If there was good value to be had, IBOs could remain as IBOs to get access to Amway products along with the IBO discount (if you can call it that).  But somehow, it appears that when the dream of going diamond with untold wealth dissipates, so goes the desire for Amway products, despite what value IBOs claim it has.

There are tens of millions of former IBOs. There are probably less than 200 qualified diamonds in the US. I believe there are more lottery winners than qualified diamonds. But if there are tens of millions of former IBOs and hundreds of thousands of current IBOs why aren't the Amway sales consistently growing? I believe it's because Amway IBOs are the primary consumers of Amway products and former IBOs are not. And because information is easily available on the internet, prospects who are approached can easily google up Joecool's blog or other sites full of information and make an informed decision. I believe that is partly why sales are down, because recruitment and sponsoring of new IBOs is down.

So if Amway products have such great value, why don't most former IBOs continue to purchase them?

BFYAGOTDTS - Buy From Yourself And Get Others To Do The Same?

 As an Amway IBO, our group was often told that selling products were not that important. Just buy from yourself and get others to do the same. When prospecting, you ask if someone likes selling and if they say no, you say "great, this business is perfect for you". Or if someone says they like selling, you say "great, this business is perfect for your". Keep in mind that a business exists to sell a product or service for a profit. I believe Amway folks forget about this fact.  Without actual sales, you have no business.  How many real businesses could make money with only the owner and employees buying the products?  The answer is none and that includes Amway businesses.  To have a legitimate business, you need sales to actual customers.

People naturally do not like selling stuff to people, thus the adaptation to being your own best customer or buying from your own store. While it's fine to support your own business, it is not true that a McDonald's owner would never eat at a Burger King or other silly claims. Do you believe that a McDonald's owner would only eat food sold at his own restaurant? I guarantee you that isn't true. I know someone who owns a very popular pizza franchise, and she says she never eats at her own restaurant because she's sick of eating pizza. You make money selling pizza so you can have other options, including more luxurious options.

Another thing that Amway IBOs are probably not aware of is that buying from yourself and getting others to do the same without real sales to actual customers is very likely running an illegal pyramid scheme. Another MLM company Herbalife, was investigated by the FTC and while they were not shut down, they were fined and had to change their operations because the FTC found that they lacked sales to legitimate customers. Herbalife is now forced to track retail sales with a compliance monitor watching their moves. There are stories of Herbalifers trying to fudge sales and Herbalife higher ups encouraging people to sign up as preferred customers instead of business builders. That suggests to me that Herbalife is basically admitting they are a sham. If they had legitimate demand, they would run a campaign to recruit more business builders who would in turn, sell products to customers who want their products.

So Amway IBOs, are a majority of your PV sales to yourself or to customers? Are your customers your family and friends who are somewhat reluctantly buying products from you, if at all? If you are just buying and using your own products, you are actually not entitled to an Amway performance bonus, based on Amway rules.  On the bright side, it seems that Amway just ignores this requirement and pays bonuses anyway. But without legitimate demand, sales and revenues dry up when the markets begin to get saturated. Amway's sales hit a peak at 11.8 billion in 2014 and has gone into a downward spiral since. In 2016, Amway sales dropped 7% to 8.8 billion which was preceded by a double digit drop in 2015.  Then covid came along and while online retailers shot through the roof, such as Amazon, Amway did not.  I wonder why?

With sales and revenues down, that can only mean there are less sales and volume, therefore there are less Platinums and diamonds that can be supported. But Amway prospects will never know because once you earn diamond recognition, Amway never updates it. Once a diamond, always a diamond, if you will. Thus, the leaders that are being worshipped on stage might not even be diamonds anymore.

In the end, I write this post to give you food for thought. Too many prospects and IBOs are not aware of these issues but they certainly should be,

Amway IBOs And Tax Time?

 Check out this post by Forbes blogger Peter Reilly. He has written articles in the past documenting some cases of Amway IBOs being hosed by the IRS in tax court because they have no business plan or a realistic plan to make a profit. He even mentions Joecool's blog. Imagine that? My blog mentioned in Forbes!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterjreilly/2016/06/25/tax-court-denies-amway-losses-due-to-lack-of-profit-motive/#662835204815

I was surprised to see that I haven’t written about an Amway case in over two years. Well, a new one came out this week and James E. Hess, like pretty much every taxpayer who has ever disputed disallowance of Amway losses in Tax Court, lost. Amway cases are a subset of Section 183 (commonly known as hobby loss) cases.

The rule is that in order to post losses to your tax return, the underlying activity has to be one in which you were trying to make money. I have written about quite a variety of activities where the taxpayer has contested an IRS hobby loss determination- musicians, artists, drag racers, players of slot machines, even blogging to name a few. The most common though are horses and Amway. The horse people frequently win, but the Amway people pretty much always lose

A Bit About Amway

The Hess decision is of interest because it has more in the way of discussion of the Amway IBO (Independent Business Owner) experience. There is the big picture of how you can make money in Amway.

"Amway distributors can generate revenue by: (1) selling products directly to consumers; (2) earning points through Amway’s reward point system; and (3) sponsoring other individuals who join Amway as distributors. In the latter case, the original distributor is called an “upline” distributor, or a sponsor, in relation to his new recruit, the “downline” distributor. The upline distributor receives points when any member of his downline sells Amway products even though he does not participate in the sale. Those points can then be redeemed for cash in the form of a bonus check. If a downline distributor engages another individual to be his downline distributor, the original upline distributor takes a percentage of the sales of both downline distributors even though he had nothing to do with the activities of the new downline distributor. Thus, to maximize Amway-related income, a distributor must sell Amway products and also try to enlist other individuals as Amway distributors."

The Missing Business Plan

The Tax Court denied the losses because Mr. Hess did not have any sort of a business plan. What he received from Worldwide Group “did not contain information that is generally found in a formal business plan”. It was more of a description of how revenue could grow.

It is interesting to note that the Tax Court has become a little more relaxed in calling for formal business plans in Section 183 cases recognizing that people in essentially crap shoot businesses like art and horse breeding don’t need accountants to tell them how to make money. Yet it seems to be holding the line when it comes to Amway.

Mr. Hess reported net losses from 2005 to 2011 ranging from $10,000 to $25,000. In only one year did revenue exceed $1,500. Nothing changed.

Tax Court Seems To Align With The Critics

What I found most intriguing about this decision, is that way that it mirrors critiques of the Amway experience, which seem to have their own section of the blogosphere. For example Joecool of Amway – The Dream Or The Scheme? recently wrote in a post called Amway Success?
“

Submission to upline was one of the things we were told. Our group was told that upline would never purposely lead us astray so we should trust them and never try anything without checking upline.

Our group was taught to reduce debt, but ironically, upline said it was okay to go deeper in debt if it was to attend a function or to buy more cds.

Anytime we asked about how much income uplines may have been earning, we were either told it’s none of our business or shown a photocopy of a 10 year old bonus check that someone upline may have received. Our proof that the business worked was upline showing off pictures of sports cars and mansions.

Losing money is success. Many times, our group was told that losing money was a sign of success. It was success because we were investing in our futures. That the business really is not about money but about friendships. I suppose upline taught this because everyone was losing money so it was nice to hear that success was around the corner, and that we were all nicer people and on our way to success if we just attended more functions and bought more standing orders

Reaping And Sowing?

 One of the things that many prospects and IBOs believe is that they will make an investment of time (2-5 years) and money into their Amway business and that they will eventually get their time and money back in such abundance that they can walk off their jobs and walk the beaches of the world while living in luxury because of lifelong passive residual income, all because of the Amway opportunity. For IBOs and prospects of Amway, I wonder if any of you can actually name even five people who have actually accomplished this? How about two? Keep in mind that there have probably been tens of millions of people or more who also wanted this and tried Amway and the systems, only to find that reality paints a different picture.

Many people they will reap what they sow. While that many sound true, I guess the next logical question is what are you sowing? Are you deceptive when prospecting people to see the plan? Are you having to justify high priced Amway product comparisons that are not favorable to Amway? Are you actually selling goods to customers and actually qualifying for your Amway bonus or are you self-consuming and getting others to do the same? Do you have a negative opinion (broke losers) about people who don't join Amway or are not interested in seeing the plan? Do you now think your boss and your job are evil? Do you leave your kids at home to attend endless numbers of functions and meetings? You reap what you sow correct? The questions is what kinds of seeds are you actually planting?

I wonder what some WWDB diamonds were sowing? At least the ones who had their homes foreclosed, and one in particular was involved in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceedings? Are they reaping what they sowed? What about the WWDB diamonds who got divorced? What were they sowing? Are IBOs sure about wanting to make the claim of reaping and sowing? And yes, Joecool the person also has his own flaws, but the difference is that I am not on stage proclaiming to be flawless as many diamonds would imply when they speak (and profit from) their tens of thousands of downlines. I am not earning a living by deceiving people and profiting from people I am supposed to be helping. But your upline diamonds are. Take a close look at the fruit on the WWDB tree.

Uplines often ask you to look at the fruit on the tree.  What fruit is on the tree of these alleged diamonds?  You don't really know because diamonds will show you pictures of mansions and other luxuries, but you don't know if they own these trappings or if they are simply up to their armpits in debt.  Or maybe one very tenured and old timers diamond owns the stuff in the slide shows but that doesn't mean that those results are typical of all diamonds as they would have you believe.  Look at the fruit on the tree but diamonds don't allow you to actually look at their tree, such as financial disclosures or at least a schedule C business tax return.  A photo copy of a bonus check is not sufficient evidence of financial success anymore than wiring thousands of dollars to Nigeria will get you millions in return.  Don't fall for it.

Making Millions?

 I was sponsored into Amway by a good friend back in the 1990's. My friend had gone "direct" at the time so he recruited me by saying that going direct was "easy" and that he could easily show me how to do it. I had been recruited by an Amway IBO before and it was not a good experience where I was lied to in order to get me to "see the plan". I was in college in the 80's and a friend had invited me to a "beer bust". I attended the meeting wearing a T-shirt and jeans only to arrive to see people wearing suits and ties and I was thinking WTH? My friend who invited me assured me that we would down some beer after the meeting. I was mad even though I stayed for the meeting.

I didn't join and my friend eventually told me that he may not be able to hang out with me in the future because he would be rich and may not have time to hang out with me anymore. I went home a bit mad and spoke to my friend who I attended the meeting with. We talked about whether money could be made in Amway and decided that the Amway opportunity was likely saturated, so we decided not to join.

Fast forward to the 1990's and a friend of mine has gone "direct". I didn't really know exactly what that was, but I knew that the term "direct" meant you accomplished a significant level in Amway. I decided to join and see if my friend could deliver on his promise that he could show me how to go direct. I should have taken it as a red flag when I asked him about his Amway income and he told me it was none of my business. But he smoothed that over by assuring me that we would both be "Millionaires" traveling the world together in the future.

I worked really hard and managed to sponsor 12 frontline legs in about 7-8 months and I was climbing the Amway ladder. I was considered a "mover and shaker", so I got exclusive time with the upline Diamond. I even got to attend special meetings and house "plans" with the diamond.  Looking back I have to LOL.

The ironic part of this story is that I purchased a home in the year 2000 and I made the purchase for about $300K. My real estate agent also knows my Amway sponsor and contacted him about purchasing a home on Oahu (Hawaii). My former sponsor told the agent that he would only buy a home in cash (Amway/WWDB teaching). Fast forward to 2023 and my $300K home is worth about 1.5 million dollars (according to Zillow) so my home equity alone nearly makes my net worth a lot more than one million dollars. When you add in my cash savings and investments, I am worth about 2 million dollars. Sure, nothing to brag about and it's still not a life of excess luxury, but my former sponsor from Amway who is a physician is still renting a home and is nowhere close to retiring. I have been retired for several years now, with enough cash to live comfortably which includes very frequent travel and other luxuries.

While I may not be a diamond living the "diamond" lifestyle you see at functions on a slide show, I suspect that I'll be better off than some of the diamonds who live "bonus check to bonus check" trying to portray a lifestyle of "keeping up with the Joneses". Diamonds portray an excessive lifestyle of wealth, but I suspect that many of them cannot afford the lifestyle they portray. There have been "factoids" that support my claims. The fact that a triple diamond in WWDB declared chapter 7 bankruptcy and another diamond had a home foreclosed (diamonds pay cash for everything?) shows that diamonds may not be as financially free as they claim.

So who's making millions in Amway?   It's the folks selling CDs, voicemail, functions and books.

Altruistic IBOs?

 When I was an Amway IBO, I remember at many meetings, the speaker would talk about how Amway IBOs are helping people by getting them in the business or at least showing them the plan. Looking back, I fail to see how inviting someone into a business where they are virtually assured of losing money (in the systems) is helping them. This is also how some IBOs think that they are suddenly "better" people because they think they are helping people by being an IBO. Seems that Amway IBOs only "help" people who are either in the business or those who are looking at getting into the business.

On average, Amway products cost more than big retailers, so a prospect is not necessarily helped by purchasing Amway products.  You could argue that with less value, people are hurt by this action, especially when inflation is high right now.  For IBOs purchasing Amway products, they are taking away from their local economy by purchasing Amway goods, although I guess you could argue that the IBO is helping Amway to succeed. Additionally, many business building IBOs purchase tools which more often than not result in those IBOs ending up with a net business loss. How does that help anyone? What's worse is that upline's answer for a failing business is usually to buy even more tools and attend more functions.

IBOs who are actively building a business usually have many meetings to attend, and hard core IBOs are taught not to miss any meetings. Therefore, an IBO has less time to spend with his or her family. The IBO has less time to spend at church, and less time to help with any community projects. The IBO will probably miss someone's wedding or birthday celebration because of the hectic schedule of an IBO. How does that help the IBO or the IBOs family and friends?

While all of this activity is happening, IBOs also have less money because the voicemail, standing orders, functions and books and other Amway related expenses eat away at an IBO's resources. Thus, IBOs have less to contribute to charity. How does that help anyone?

So an honest question. How do IBOs help people by building an Amway business? How are they better people by showing someone the plan?

In my informed opinion, the nicer and better person is what upline teaches as a side note to distract an IBO from the FACT that they are losing money because of the defacto 100 PV and tools requirements. They also make it seem as if IBOs are "helping" people by showing them the business plan. When you think about it, perhaps just the opposite is happening. This is another tactic, IMO that uplines use to justify an IBO's lack of progress, much like how they tell downline that they are successful just by getting themselves to a function.  It's nonsense but upline will use these tactics because IBOs want to believe they represent good and are preparing their financial futures.  But make no mistake, there's an insidious motivation on the part of upline and many IBOs.

The College Of Amway U?

 Many IBOs justify their involvement in the system of cds, tapes, books and seminars by comparing it to college. They claim they need this education and that it is much cheaper when compared to a college or university. Of course, this is the upline propaganda that IBOs are fed, much like the concept that a job is a bad idea. If recruiters are encouraging you to build Amway and to drop college, I would run away as fast as possible. It is well documented that college graduates in general, earn much more than non-college graduates. I'd also mention that college was a fun experience for me.

In college, it is true that not everyone graduates, but approximately half of those who start college end up graduating. Those who do not graduate still benefit from their education on a year to year or course by course basis. When you are job seeking, a college degree will give you more options than those who don't educate. This claim cannot be made by Amway IBOs. The education an IBO receives by seminars and cds do not even equate to success in Amway, much less in other venues in life. Only a small fraction of IBOs ever reach platinum, which supposedly is the break even point. So as an IBO, you have less than one half of a one percent chance to break even as compared to approximately a 50% chance of graduating college.

Also, once you graduate and receive your degree/diploma, it is complete. You have your degree, and no more education is required. In Amway, your education will never end. You'll be expected to invest in the tools and functions forever. Also, in Amway, there are many many many examples of people who reached levels as high as diamond or above who could not maintain the level. There are also many examples of diamonds who quit Amway. If there were such a thing as "residual" income, why would anyone quit when they could sit back and watch the cash roll in. I think the answer is quite obvious. Residual income is a myth. I believe that diamonds might be working full time to maintain their groups. With people quitting daily, it takes a lot of effort to replace the quitters with new recruits.

There is also no evidence (as far as I know) that your Amway related education of cds and seminars actually work. The tiny fraction of 1% of successful IBOs is not a good case for arguing the success of the system. Colleges on the other hand, have accreditation standards, which is nothing like the ineffective Amway accreditation of groups such as BWW, WWDB or Network 21. The results are quite telling if you look at them analytically.

The fact that IBOs even dare to compare a college education to their teaching in Amway is a joke. Try telling a prospective employer about your Amway education and see what that gets you. LOL

Life Changing?

 One of the things that was heavily promoted by the upline when I was an Amway IBO, and I believe is still promoted, is the control of time and money. I recall hearing that "broke" people often have lots of time, but can't do much because of a lack of money, or how a very hard working man might have money but a lack of time as he is working 80 hours per week. So why not join Amway, work hard for 2-5 years and have all the time and money you need for life?  On the surface, that might sound reasonable, until you realize that even the diamonds are not as "free" as they want you to believe.

Well, the 2-5 years sounds good on the surface, but how many people actually do that? I don't know of any IBO who worked the business 2-5 years and walked away from their business to enjoy control of time and money forever. And there are reasons for that. Attrition. Most IBOs who join don't do much and more than half of all IBOs won't even be in business for more than a year. IBOs also need to be active and moving side volume in order to qualify for some of the bonuses. It is why I believe that there aren't any diamonds who left to enjoy their time and money because of passive ongoing Amway income. Diamonds and above must continually work the business or their businesses will fall apart like the waves would erode a sand castle at the beach.

For many IBOs ironically, what they desire most, time and money, is what they have less of because of their involvement in the Amway opportunity. It is because of the way many IBOs are taught by the systems such as WWDB, BWW or N21. Many of these groups will teach a defacto PV requirement of 100 PV which costs about $300 monthly. In some cases, you are getting a small box of goods for the same amount of cash that would have gotten you a cartload of goods at WalMart or Costco. For system IBOs, you are also paying for instruction that basically tells you that this is a great idea and that you should never quit.

So now when your family and friends have backyard barbecues or birthday parties, you are absent because you are securing your financial future. Your kids surely won't mind you missing their baseball games or sending them to the sitters while you attend a function. Your family and friends will be wowed when you retire next year and throw them a party to end all parties. It all seems surreal, and for most, it truly is. There may be $10 or even $50 monthly checks rolling in from Amway but is never covers the cost of your expenses. You can't quit because success might be right around the corner.

Suddenly your sponsor or upline might tell you that the Amway business is not about money. You might be told that you are a nicer person or a better parent (even if you neglect your kids to attend functions), or that the business opportunity has saved your marriage. Which leads to my question. What have you achieved in the Amway business that has given you more control of time and money? Do you have less time and money as a result of your involvement with Amway?

During my involvement with Amway, my life was changed, but not for the better. And it wasn't because of Amway. It was self serving teaching by WWDB leaders designed to suck the life out of IBOs. We were to attend all meetings. All means all. We were to submit to upline. Check your ego at the door. We were to buy extra tapes/cds because you can't listen to the same ones each day. Wives and husbands needed separate standing orders. If downline quit, you don't cancel standing order. It is why I saw crosslines go bankrupt, lose a home to foreclosure and many ended up quitting and with large financial loss.

I hope this message of personal experience helps information seekers.

Sunken Cost Fallacy?

 One thing that many Amway IBOs likely suffer from is having invested too much into the business to quit. They may have spent months or even years working the system hard and diligently, and they start to realize that the system isn't working out or that the business is just not producing the results that were advertised. You see obvious problems in the business, but you reach a very tough fork in the road.  Your upline is telling you that you're doing great, or that success might be right around the next corner.  But each and every month, you spend your free time slogging to meetings and seeing expenses pile up with no improvement in revenue.  But upline's solution is often to spend more money on tools and functions even when there are no tangible results.

To quit would mean failure, as presented by many uplines. To quit is to be broke for life. To give up hope. Quitters are failures and are labeled as losers by the Amway IBOs. What hopes do you have of retirement and walking the beaches once you quit? Are your dreams of success shattered? This is a very difficult decision that must be dealt with by Amway IBOs, or maybe even those considering the business. Often the "sunken cost fallacy" plays a role, where you feel that you've invested too much to just walk away. although in many cases, making a business decision to stop is the only way to stop the financial losses. 

I encourage IBOs and/or prospects to completely take the emotion out of this decision. Do not think about dreams, walking the beaches and early retirement. Do not think about what you upline may or may not have promised you. Stop and think only about your Amway business and the results that it has produced or not produced. Has your business been increasing towards your goal of financial independence or are you seeing losses month after month? Do the math. Are you on target to reach your financial goals or are you headed towards bankruptcy? Don't think only about what happens if you quit. Think about what happens if you continue. Are there prospects of making a profit or is that next major function around the corner and likely to put you deeper in the hole?  Bottom line is this; what significantly is going to change that will make your results better?  If you keep doing what upline advises and no changes are made to your business plan, how will things improve for you?  Doesn't upline say that insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results?

This post is not about encouraging people to quit or to walk from the business. But certainly, business owners should think like business owners, and they should make an honest and realistic assessment about their continued participation, especially if their bottom line is red ink. If you are not making a profit now, what will change next month to make things better? If you repeat what your upline advised. your results are not going to magically get better. Use facts to make an informed decision.  Sometimes the best decision is either a pause from all activity to make a better assessment of your situation or to make a business decision to try something else.  If you make a facts based decision, then there's a good chance that it's the right one.

Success Speaks For Itself?

 I heard a great comment from a commentator on a related Amway blog. Basically, he said if IBOs were so successful, people would just naturally be attracted. And that's true! Where I live, the local electric company is an attractive place to work with a good salary and benefits package. When there's a handful of openings, you might get as many as 10,000 people applying for these positions. When the federal government hires for the local post office, you get thousands of applicants for a handful of jobs as well.  People are naturally attracted to these positions because they know they will be paid well and receive a nice benefits package.

But Amway IBOs have to justify their positions. The common ones are how Amway products are concentrated, or they have magical ingredients in their vitamins. It is my position that if these products were so good and the opportunity actually produced successful IBOs, there would be no need to be deceptive about the products or opportunity. The products could easily be marketed. In fact, customers would be seeking IBOs to find the products, and there would be lines of people waiting to see the opportunity. But that isn't the case. Clearly, Amway IBOs use some degree of deception usually called the curiosity approach or outright lies.  People are not inclined to see the Amway opportunity because of its great reputation for success.

Instead, IBOs themselves are the primary consumers of Amway products. Many IBOs are deceptive when inviting people to see the Amway plan. Some prospects are outright lied to when recruited for the Amway opportunity. The curiosity approach is still used by many, because mentioning "Amway" is more likely to get you funny looks than interest. If what I am writing is not true, why do IBOs need to deceive people? Why don't some IBOs open their books and display the financial success they claim to have? Why so secretive? Why aren't there hundreds of new diamonds and emeralds each month? Instead, you mainly hear of the Amway growth in foreign countries. Most likely because the Amway name and reputation has not yet been soiled as it has in the US and Canada.  New diamonds are not common and in fact, many old diamonds are no longer around.

In the US, I see primarily the same old diamonds who were in control of the functions and systems from more than 20 years ago. In fact, factoring in diamonds who quit or dropped out, I believe there are fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO in the 1990s. Some of these diamonds also had some apparent financial difficulties. The opportunity is far from how it's promoted. Success speaks louder than words, and where North American Amway success is concerned, the silence is deafening!

A Real Business?

 Many IBOs are taught to "buy from themselves". Although in some of these groups, retailing may be mentioned, it certainly is not taught in a serious manner, nor it is a point of emphasis.  I believe it is because people in general simply are not comfortable with selling products. Thus, the concept of buy from yourself and get others to do the same makes the masses feel comfortable. What they do not realize is that they are simply loyal Amway customers and not running a business. As I mentioned in a previous post, in what business do you not have customers? It is why IBOs must ask themselves, are they running a "real" business?  Imagine joining Costco to buy stuff but rabidly recruiting others to join Costco because anyone you refer to Costco helps you to get a bigger rebate from Costco.  That's sort of the concept.

For many Amway IBOs, the focus of their efforts is on recruiting others. But why would someone want to join a system where they basically sign up to be a loyal customer and be a recruiter for other loyal customers? The pyramid like compensation plan is what drives many IBOs. Find enough downline and eventually, your downline will absorb the financial losses for you and will become the source of your income. I believe that the 4000 PV or platinum level is about where you as an IBO can find the break even point if you are dedicated to the "system" consisting of tapes, cds, books, voicemail and functions.  Of course, hard core "sold out" dedication to the system can also lead to losses even at these higher levels.

Secondarily, in addition to signing on as a loyal customer of Amway, if you join a system and participate in standing order and/or functions, then you have also become a loyal customer of the "system". Sadly, many upline will push IBOs to keep purchasing tools regardless of the IBO's progress in the business.  This is where your business losses can mount, because upline's solution to a lack of success in Amway is to expend more resources on training and education even though the current results are negligible. 

So I ask the question again for IBOs and potential recruits. As an IBO, are you running a real business? Can you get a business loan using the 6-4-2 plan? Have you tried showing it to a loan officer? Can you cite BWW or WWDB as educational credentials when applying for a job or will you be laughed out of the room? For these very reasons, I can only conclude that many, possibly most IBOs are not running a "real" business. They are simply doing what their upline advises. These uplines are more concerned about selling their tools than they are about their downline IBOs. It appears that downline IBOs are expendable. They quickly become bitter, broke, or not having expended enough effort if they do not "make it".

So are you running a real business?

Upline Credentials?

 I read a comment a while back from an Amway apologist on another forum. She mentions that someone's credentials must be considered when looking at information that is presented by critics. I will comment that a diamond showing me a sports car, or a fancy suit is not proof of financial success. Telling the audience that you buy homes in cash is not sufficient evidence either. In fact, some of these boasting diamonds were found to have their homes foreclosed and some had financial difficulty, even though they at times had shown off pictures of their lifestyles. I believe that many diamonds are likely to be more like the general US population - in debt. In debt trying to portray a lifestyle that is unsustainable with their Amway and Amway related income.

I find this subject ironic because not one single upline leader, as far as I know, has ever supplied bonafide credentials about themselves. The audience assumes that the person on stage has success and certain credentials, but do they really? I will say that certainly, if someone is wearing a diamond pin for example, that this person has at least achieved the diamond level as recognized by Amway, but the level may not be current, and the level doesn't indicate the kind of income this person earns from Amway. (Joecool is criticized for being outdated even though I was at 4000 PV at one point in my Amway career)

What many people assume is that the diamonds buy homes and cars in cash, that they wake up at noon every day and participate in leisure activities all day while the cash rolls in. I have heard from some new IBOs, that their upline makes more money taking a crap in the morning than a critic makes in a whole year at a job. That IBO became quiet when some critics offered to take that bet. (Do the math people)

But the truth of the matter is that as far as I know, only former diamonds have come clean about their Amway income. They are the only ones who spoke of credentials and accomplishments. Even critics of Amway will often openly speak about their experiences and achieved levels in the business. In the REAL business world, showing business tax returns and credentials are a normal part of doing business. It appears that only in the world of Amway is the supply of credentials and financial statements a big secret. Now I am not suggesting that IBOs or upline leaders should disclose their financials to the entire world, but certainly prospects and some downline should be able to see how their upline is doing financially in Amway, especially if that is the basis for purchasing their standing orders and function tickets. And I refer to business (Amway and Tools) income and expenses only, not from other personal sources.

I believe that IBOs and upline leaders do not disclose that information because it would not be beneficial to them. If it were, they would likely publish it freely, just as they flash around copies of checks. IBOs and prospects should take this to heart and ask upline the tough questions

The Basic Math Of Amway?

 It is my observation that people who join Amway usually end up losing money in the end. They may get involved to make a few bucks or because they are mistakenly led to believe that they will become millionaires in Amway in 2-5 years. I know my sponsor convinced me that we would be millionaires in a few years. These folks who recruit new IBOs into Amway are often associated with a "system" such as Worldwide Dreambuilders (WWDB)or Network 21 (N21). These system promoters, often diamonds, may mislead the recruits by showing them pictures of mansions or other luxuries, implying that they attained these goods with their Amway business. In many cases, it is a deception, especially when we know for a fact that some diamond leaders who proclaimed that they only make cash purchases, had their homes foreclosed. Without the hype, I am sure there would be fewer sign ups. But what is the evidence?

It is simple. Amway reports that the average active IBO earns about $200 a month in gross income. This average includes diamonds and other higher end IBOs. I believe if you calculated the median, the average would be much lower.

But what makes IBOs operate at a loss is the system expenses. The system generally consists of voicemail, standing orders, cds, functions, books and other materials. An average business building IBO might spend an average of $250+ a month or so on these expenses. Amway defenders like to decry the amount, but there are couples who would likely spend more and IBOs who must travel by air to functions would spend more. Single IBOs who buy only the minimum might spend a bit less. Some IBOs with abusive uplines might spend much much more than $250 a month on tools. I believe my former sponsor spent easily an average of $1000 a month on average. (I am from Hawaii so the average cost of functions is greater due to long distance travel)

Thus if the average IBO earns $200 a month but the same average IBO spends $250 a month on tools, the average active IBO is losing $50+ a month, with lower level IBOs (i.e. 100 PV) would lose more.

Look at a group of 100 IBOs at 100 PV. (This is just a model). If a 100 business building IBOs average $250 a month on tools, they as a group would expend $25,000 a month on tools and functions. Their volume would be 10,000 PV, or about 30,000 BV. This would generate about $7500 in bonuses per month. Thus this group spent $25,000 to learn and be motivated while the group splits up $7500 a month in bonuses. The platinum would get the lion's share of the bonus but most of the rest of the group will suffer net losses. As the group grows, the bonus may grow, but so will their expenditures on tools. Keep in mind that a group of 100 IBOs spitting up $7500 would be an average of $75 each. It is the diamonds that drive up that average. The math bears it out.

The only way the group can make money as a whole is to avoid participation in the tools altogether and to actually sell products to non IBO customers. The evidence is right here with simple math. The systems do not work because the cost of the system is likely to consume all of the Amway generated bonuses and more. I gladly challenge anyone to explain in detail how this post is not reflective of the reality of being in Amway and a system such as WWDB or Network21.

The facts speak for themselves.

Opposing Views?

One of the things I find curious and humorous at the same time is how people who defend Amway often will not allow opposing viewpoints on their Amway propaganda blogs and forums. They will post an article and allow no comments or will not allow comments unless they are positive and paint a rosy picture about Amway. Amway's biggest defender IBOFightback, banned me from his truth about amway blog recently for no reason. In fact, I posted only a handful of comments there in years and the comments were truthful and not attacks, yet he felt my presence needed to be excluded from his blog perhaps because the truth itself is negative about Amway. I suppose though, that David Steadson's (IBOFB) lack of credibility (in my book) makes the banning a minor issue. His website is filled with pro Amway folks who back up Amway, even bad practices at times. I guess when you see the world through rose-colored glasses. you don't see the reality.

I also had an exchange not too long ago with an IBO via email. He also runs a pro Amway blog but hasn't been active recently. He doesn't allow comments on his blog unless they praise Amway. I just don't understand why the need to put spin on the truth. It is a fact that the average Amway IBO earns very little and that most IBOs make little or nothing. Many who participate in the training sessions end up losing money. Those are tidbits that match up with my experience. It is usually former IBOs who can verify this claim. Seems that current IBOs do not admit they are losing money. As an IBO, I was taught "fake it till you make it". That suggests that you appear successful until you actually go diamond or whatever. In the end, a pig with lipstick on it is still a pig.

Joecool allows opposing views on this blog. Even some comments that are critical of me are allowed. I even had some (I presume) IBOs who left threats on this blog. I suspect that one or some of them also sent me threats via email. Still, I allow most comments on here. I do not allow racist or extremely hateful comments, or comments with spam. I have nothing to hide when it comes to my views on Amway. So what do Amway apologists and IBOs have to hide? Would it be damaging to have the truth on your blog or forum? Is the internet already inundated with negative Amway information and comments?

I believe Amway is partly to blame. The AMO's (Amway Motivational Organizations) such as Network 21, WWDB or BWW are the ones who say and do unethical things. Amway is the only entity who can take action against these groups, but it appears that substantial action is lacking and therefore, these groups continue to teach bad business practices which filter down to many IBOs and contributes to Amway having a bad reputation. I guess Amway is sleeping in the bed they made. Until some bad practices are stopped or corrected, there will continue to be people who had a bad experience in Amway. It is what it is. Amway started an accreditation program to curb abuse, but that practice appears of the surface to be a paper tiger (no teeth).

Fake It But Don't Make It?

 One of the things I was taught as an IBO was to "fake it til you make it". I believe this is probably still true today, based on my interaction with and observation of IBO behavior. If you have followed the trials on various upline leaders such as Shores or Duncan and their financials, you can likely conclude that even the diamonds can be in financial difficulty. Some former diamonds who have left the business or quit have also expressed some similar sentiments.  And if you think about it, why would any diamond leave the business if you can walk away and collect residual income?  You probably already know the answer to this question.

But if you examine functions like "Dream Night", where the diamonds show off pictures of mansions, sports cars, boats and jetskis, you can conclude that the diamonds are implying that all of these goodies are a part of their regular lifestyles, including the notion of waking up at noon and never having to work. I believe for most diamonds, this is just a facade, or an exercise in deception of the downline. I recall the diamonds urging the crowd to "come join us". Some IBOs want it so bad that tears roll down their cheeks as they watch the presentation. They honestly believe that 2-5 years working the system assures them of success.

The sad reality is that most IBOs, even with much effort and hard work, will end up making nothing, or if fully engaged in the system of functions and cds and books, will end up with a net loss. IBOs who stick around for a few years might see losses in the thousands or tens of thousands. All the while their upline may have been telling the group the perseverance is the key or that you will "make it" if you don't quit. Nothing could be further from the truth. There's no evidence that working hard and never quitting will result in anything but financial losses.

If diamonds and high pins are putting on a show, what about the average rank and file IBOs? I believe that many of them are also fakes. They may wear suits and talk about success but ask one of them if they actually make a net profit and you'll get more excuses than answers. The typical answer will be that it's none of your business, or that their results are not indicative of yours because it depends on effort. This is just a diversion. If someone is promoting the opportunity and then flaunting a lifestyle that can allegedly be attained through the opportunity, then the folks making the claim should be able to qualify their claims. It is normal in everyday business for potential business partners or investors to seek evidence or proof that the business produces what is being advertised. Why Amwayers believe otherwise is puzzling, but not surprising. I believe it is because many Amwayers are fakes, starting from the top.

An Amway Observation?

 http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=192279&page=8

It's refreshing to see so many good people on this forum telling the truth about Amway. It looks like the pro-Amway shills here and on other sites are becoming increasingly outnumbered and desperate. I've read through this entire thread and think it is hilarious how many times the shill has to move the goal-posts or play word games to make Amway look like an amazing business opportunity.

I was originally introduced to Amway many years ago in my late teens by an uncle of mine. I attended a few of their seminars, and was impressed at first. But the whole thing started to seem ridiculous and unrealistic and so I didn't get involved any further. Also, I'm not that materialistic, so Amway's message doesn't appeal to me. I wish my uncle had been more skeptical.

My uncle was very devoted to Amway for a few years. He bought all their products(especially the tapes and books), tried to get others to buy them, and also tried to recruit all his family and friends into his new religion. He eventually lost money and friends and alienated himself from much of his family.

Already heavily in debt, he eventually fell for another, even bigger get-rich-quick scam shortly after quitting Amway(to Amway's credit, they don't threaten to kill anyone for leaving Amway). This one robbed him of his entire life savings. The scammers got away with it because they knew how to play him right(he met one of them through Amway). His wife divorced him soon after.

As if this wasn't enough, after making a modest financial recovery with his business over the course of several years, he loses it all to yet another scam. He had to borrow heavily from the few friends he had left since no bank would ever give him a loan, and almost no one in the family has anything to do with him anymore. I haven't seen him for 15 years.

One thing I wonder about my uncle is if all those seminars and inspirational tapes and books softened him up to fall for all those other scams he fell for after quitting Amway(he didn't have a reputation for being gullible before joining Amway, though he was never that bright to begin with). If I remember correctly, he tended to blame himself for failing at Amway, and may have never understood that it was a big scam or at least not a good business opportunity.

I still remember those crazy seminars and how they told everyone that joining the Amway cult will likely lead to yachts, exotic vacations surrounded by hot bikini babes, and shiny expensive cars, among other symbols of wealth. Everyone is told at the seminars and in the "tools" that they have all this unfulfilled potential, but to realize this potential we must avoid those small-minded "dream killers"(skeptical family members and friends).

The story about my stupid uncle is true. There are many other people out there just like him who have fallen for Amway and others MLMs. The few people I've met who claimed they were very successful at Amway usually seemed sleazy or I would find out years later they were up to their eyeballs in debt.

The person who said before that the people who regularly attend these seminars are mostly fools and misfits was spot on.

The Con Game?

 Great Thread posted at scam.com:

http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=142975

It is stunning to realize the enormity of this con. Multi-million and billion dollar companies, stock exchange listed companies, companies that put on the facade of being a good corporate neighbor and innocent "business" (cough) next door.

Nework marketing is a flawed and unsustainable business model that effectively is fed and supported by those on the bottom. Those on the bottom work a job to fund their product purchases. Those spoils of war then are divided up by the upline and sponsor company. Those on the bottom, who use funds from their jobs (rather than product sales) to sustain the "business", are an ever expanding rotating door of new recruits.

Although the products may be of high quality and slickly packaged, and give the impression that you are a marketeer of these sundry goods...the reality is much different. You are required to buy monthly quotas for personal use and recruit your ass off to gain entry into the promised land. The product you are really selling is a dubious "business opportunity"...your real market is "opportunity seekers".

A real business markets and sell goods and services. They are sustained by real retail sales. They order only what they know they can sell. From what I see all these mlms push recruiting as the ticket to the good life. Products and retailing mean nothing.

Another major difference is a real business owner holds title to his business...something he can sell. In mlm, you own nothing but your small product inventory.

The nature of this false and flawed business model will always have in its wake a vast turnover at the bottom of the pyramid structure. It's the nature of the beast and can be no other way, all math aside. The many "losers and the quitters" and dreamers who hang in there waiting for their ship to come in are those who support the top and sponsor company. There will always be a relentless drive to recruit at the bottom as it has nothing to do with true product retailing to support the business but finding and recruiting opportunity seekers. The emphasis is always on finding new recruits rather than selling product. And indeed, many of these mlm businesses put restrictions on the associate's ability to retail the product...which subtly strengthens its true goal of recruiting as the primary revenue stream...not product sales.

These "businesses" (cough again) are predatory and prey on the many by appealing to dreams of luxury and a life of ease, especially those with troubles in their life. The start money is low to get into the "business", which is unlike a real business that takes more sizable seed money, some knowledge and guidance and a real business plan.

Those few that actually make sizable incomes from these schemes must live with the knowledge that their life is supported by the broken dreams, efforts and losses of those on the bottom. They conveniently set aside any feelings of culpability after stepping on the bodies of their fellow man so they can proclaim that they worked hard and made it.

There simply is no parallel between a network marketing model as a "business" and how a "normal?" business really works. I understand this because I own a real business that retails real product.

Network marketing is simply the greatest con game of all time. They should all be shut down.

8-12 Hours Per Week To Prosperity?

 One of the myths that my Amway upline used to, and likely still perpetuate is the claim that you can build an Amway mega empire on 8-12 hours of effort per week. I'm venturing an educated guess that this number is used because while it still represents time, it is probably less hours than working a part time job. But let's take a closer look at this 8-12 hours per week.  (Some groups might teach 10-15 hours per week, etc.)

If you listen to one (1) cd/audio per day as recommended by upline and read one of their "success" books 15 minutes each day, you are already close to nine to ten hours of activity used per week and neither of these activities produces any income for your Amway business. In fact, both activities cost you money and produce no tangible result or income.  Upline says you are getting better and "educating" yourself, but how much education do you need to buy stuff, sell stuff and recruit downline?   If you spend another 15 minutes a day contacting people, you are close to 12 hours per week. Where will you find additional time to show the plan and to expand your name and contact list? What about servicing retail customers, at least for IBOs who actually may have some customers. 

What about attending meetings and functions? These are also non income producing activities. It's no wonder the vast majority of IBOs don't make money. Their upline has them running around participating in activities that produce no income for their businesses. Ironically, these non-income producing activities such as listening to a cd/audio, produces a lot of income for certain uplines who produce and sell them. To me, it is just an elaborate game of bait and switch played by upline. They tell you that their system is foolproof and that you will make it if you don't give up. Not true.  All these activities accomplish (listening to audios, reading books and attending meetings and functions) is to provide upline with a stable and sizable regular income.  Many people don't know this, but a diamond may have a small monthly income, possibly $5000 a month.  Of course, it depends on business structure, etc.  But the average run of the mill, non Q12 diamond (the vast majority) probably makes a small monthly income and the rest of that $100 to $150K they speak of comes in the form of annual bonuses.  

But diamonds sell the prospect the dream of financial freedom. You tell the IBOs that Amway is their best chance. You tell them that you can help them and that the tools of the business (standing order, voicemail, books, functions) are the key to their success. Those who are serious enough to commit to the system likely won't quit without making some effort and will allow uplines to earn some nice profits before these downline eventually realize they aren't profitable and quit. Because many IBOs are sponsored by family and friends, you don't see too many formal complaints about the business. Most people chalk it up as a life lesson and do not complain.  

But IBOs and information seekers, do not be fooled into thinking that you will create a financial empire by working 8-12 hours a week. That would be far-fetched, almost too good to be true.  If that's not a get rich quick scheme, what is?  The number of highly successful Amway IBOs versus the number who sign up are likely fewer than lottery winners.

Are Diamonds Just Middle Class People?

 I recently read an article on what constitutes wealth. Some say an annual income of $100,000 would make them wealthy, some say assets exceeding $4 million would do it, and some estimated that $2 million would make them "rich". Of course, everything is relative and someone earning $25,000 a year would think that $100,000 a year is wealth, etc. College students might think $40,000 a year is awesome because many have little money to begin with. I'm sure someone like Bill Gates would not consider $4 million to be astonishing. It's all relative. If you are content with what you have, you are likely relatively well off already.

But let's talk about Amway diamonds. I say diamond because it is basically the pinnacle of success in Amway. It is the crowning achievement of the 6-4-2 plan (or other variations) that many groups show. The average diamond earns more than $200,000, according to Amway. Now $200,000 sounds like a lot of money to young people or to those with lower wage types of jobs, or those who are just starting out in their careers. But we also know that diamonds earn income from the sale of tools. Some groups advertise (verbally) that someone might earn $100,000 a year from the tools and honorariums (speaking income).

Let's be generous and say the diamond earns $300,000+ a year from Amway and tools income. Income tax and medical insurance for the family will eat up about 40% of that right off the top, leaving about $180,000. Fantastic you might say? Well, a diamond certainly would live in a million dollar mansion, which would give you about a $6000 a month mortgage (So much for buying homes in cash) or $72,000 a year, leaving $108,000. Fantastic right? Well, diamonds are constantly traveling to various functions, flying first class and staying only at 5 star hotels right? So an average of 1 trip per month with a family, first class and a 5 star hotel would probably cost about $5000 or more per trip, or about $60,000 a year, now leaving $68,000 for this diamond's yearly budget. A good diamond with a family surely consumes 300 PV per month for household goods, or about $900 a month or about $11,000 a year, leaving $57,000 for the rest of the year. A good diamond is often a Christian who would faithfully tithe 10% of his income, or about $30,000 a year, leaving the diamond with $27,000 a year, or about $2250 a month to pay for their monthly electric and utility bills, gas, car payments, meals and entertainment.

Yes, some expenses may be slightly higher or lower, but what I am trying to illustrate is that even an above average diamond with tools income is more likely to be broke than wealthy if they live the lifestyles portrayed at functions such as dream night or other major functions. Do the math. It is unlikely that diamonds pay cash for everything and it is unlikely that fabulous lifestyles can be sustained on a diamond income. There is plenty of evidence out there. Diamond's homes foreclosed, diamonds behind on income taxes, a prominent triple diamond formerly in chapter 7 bankruptcy proceeding, many diamonds selling off their homes in a bad real estate market.

I truly believe that it is quite possible for many diamonds to be broke. Many people live in debt these days. Are diamonds any different, even with more income? The math says diamonds are just like anyone else.