Monday, April 26, 2010

Amway - Why Critics Are Important

I often wondered what the Amway opportunity would be without any critics. Many Amway supporters think that critics exist only to tear down others or to bash the Amway opportunity. I see it completely opposite. I believe that Amway critics are important for IBOs. Without any opposing voice, IBOs would mistakenly believe that they are in Amway utopia except that eventually, they would notice that they are losing their shirts.

When I was an IBO, our upline (and many others apparently) claimed that nobody made any profits from the system (voicemail, books, tapes/cds. functions). Without any opposing voices, this might still be happening. IBOs had no way of knowing. Upline just told bold lies and got away with it. To this day, none of these "awesome" leaders have even been held accountable for the lies. The diamonds simply ignored it. Sure, they now speak about tools, but there is little transparency about how you actually qualify for a share and how much you get when you qualify.

Critics have also pointed out that many IBOs are taught to ignore important facts such as their profits versus losses. Some IBOs are taught "fake it till you make it" or they are taught to "buy from yourself", both of which are ridiculous from a business standpoint. But without an opposing view, IBOs would never question upline. In fact, many IBOs are taught to avoid all negative. Don't watch the news or read the newspaper. In other words, upline wants you to be apathetic and only read and intake their Amway propaganda. This is why some people accuse Amway leaders of running a cult.

Think about this. Your body has pain sensors for a reason. What if you could turn off your pain sensors because you see it as a "negative". Do you think this would be good? Minor cuts or infections could become major health problems or other minor injuries untreated can become life threatening. You could touch a stove and burn your hands but you wouldn't know it without some pain. For this reason, I believe that having opposing views are also important for IBOs to consider. Valid criticism is good for IBOs who are serious about building their businesses. To avoid negative just for the sake of avoiding negative is silly. Critics are important.

33 comments:

bdjack said...

someday i'd like to e-mail you my own amway story. is your screenname the same as your e-mail?

Joecool said...

bdjack, send me your email and I'll contact you. Since I moderate comments, I can take your email address and delete the message to preserve your privacy.

Joecool said...

bdjack, check your email.

rocket said...

bdjack, can I have access to your blog?

James Carlson said...

I'm about to lose my shirt too!! I'm an Amway IBO. But I'm not losing it to Amway, tools, or "upline"....I'm losing it to the HOT soon-coming weather! My business proceeds bought my wardrobe (in part), lost me none of it by loss, as well as the ability to swim in my pool or go to the lake, yes, shirtless......and YES: anyday, anytime I wanna! ;)
I've now been 5 years UNEMPLOYABLE and free, DUE to my properly-reimbursed efforts into this business. Friends are welcome. :) Don't lose your shirt, lose your bondages. SOME of us can actually help. I'm a critic too: I critique anyone who stands in the way of the freedom of others...and even "call out" the Father of lies. I'll do the same if people "on my team" (or otherwise-nearby) intentionally profess something that steals from anyone, kills, or destroys what is 'good'. Critics, line up and call me out if I ever become off such target; PLEASE!

Joecool, I'd maybe even lose my shorts for YOU if ya wanna see a hot moon in daylight!

j/k man.....

HUMOR is good and healthy too, eh?

P.S. I remember where I put all my clothes, and surely intend on losing none of them (except GIVING 'em to anyone in need), and proceed with prudence and wisdom...and counsel IBOs nearby me to do the same. *winx*

Joecool said...

Hi James, and congratulations on your success. However, that's not the point. I know that some people make money in Amway. The problem is that far too many people end up losing money in Amway in order for those few to succeed. Factor in the tools and the masses are losing their asses.

Joecool said...

BDJack, can I forward your email to Rocket?

Lucifer said...

James Carlson, you rock. I love your style. Diamond life is a life of freedom to reach to your community and to the world. Under One God, amen!

Joecool said...

Luci (from Canada), James never said he was a diamond. And I KNOW you aren't a diamond. Not even close.

mrmaximum said...

Check the fruit on the tree. Let's try something shall we? Now, if Amway actually worked, wouldn’t IBO’s be viewed like salesmen? See, in the aggregate people don't really have a very positive outlook on salespeople. Being in sales isn’t like a normal job, as you have to constantly be looking for your next sale in order to pay your bills and even live. It’s hard work, to be sure, and not everyone is up to the task. Because of this they are mostly viewed as greedy and morally challenged, as it can indeed be hard to make money. However, there isn't one person on the face of this Earth who doesn't realize that if you do work, you will indeed make money. People may not become salesmen because of how hard one may have to work, but not because the money isn't there.

Let’s take realtors for example; my wife has just hooked up a friend with the realtor we used when we bought our house almost two years ago. Now this woman is very good, knowledgeable and fair. Now, she doesn't drive a huge fancy car, or wear expensive jewelry or clothes, but without a doubt she makes money and she and her husband are far from struggling, they do very well actually. Matter of fact, in dealing with a few other realtors who my friends and family had to use, I have heard of some which where...less than ambitious, and they still weren’t dead broke by any stretch of the imagination. Finally, I can remember a few years ago driving home when I encountered another realtor, he was putting up a sign for an open house he was having in a day or so on the side of the street. He was wearing a pretty nice suit and took the sign out of an expensive, European Sedan. Later I noticed his face on a flyer and the homes he had listed where all over half a million dollars, needless to say he does pretty well for himself.

My point, well, I have several; does my realtor make 6 figures a year? Did the few others that my friends and family used do either? Nope, the last man obviously did, but my first point is that here you have several realtors among various points of the income spectrum who I have encountered in my everyday life. I didn't go to a 'Houseway' meeting to encounter these people; I encountered them simply living my life. Is there any reason to doubt that any of these people are solvent? That any of these people, even the less than ambitious ones at least had a roof over their heads? It was pretty clear to me that all of them indeed could pay their bills and earned a living from their endeavor, the proof was all over them, they didn’t need to verify anything to me.

You see, my wife and family dealt with let’s say ‘Average’ realtors. It seemed pretty obvious that they made 5 figures a year. The man I encountered on the road, obviously he made 6 figures a year. Here is what I mean; there they all are, walking examples that if you work at real estate, you can make money. Their lives speaking so loud that I can’t hear a word coming out of their mouths. Yet, what about Amway, what about IBO’s?
If Amway worked, and being an IBO was like being a salesmen, sure a lot wouldn't hack it, and yes a lot would quit, but some indeed would make some money, but there would be more than a few who would make decent money, let’s say ‘average’ money. Then lastly, no one would have to drive hundreds of miles and attend a special conference to hear and see the ones who make BIG money whom few outside of Amway would know about.

mrmaximum said...

I also wager that we would encounter these 'average' money making IBO's far more regularly than we already do. They would be in our neighborhoods, and communities preaching the good news of Amway like my realtor did. Not that she did it deliberately, not at all, all she did was do her job professionally and that won me over. The proof of her success readily apparent, she didn’t have to make a show, grandstand or the like, she just simply did her job. If Amway worked, I could live beside a 4,000 pin and notice that they had a little more spending money and a little less stress than I do. Just how many IBO’s live like this precisely? Like I stated before, I met three 'average' earning realtors and one Diamond level one without seeking them out, I didn’t have to. If Amway worked and there are people who aren't lazy and are working the system are indeed out there......where are they? Do successful realtors hide what they do? Heck, not just realtors, I also met a car salesman who made $80,000 per year and my MIL made 6 figures regularly when she was in sales.

Once again, successful salesmen do exist, and at varying levels to boot, I and others no doubt have met them, not in a meeting, not at a convention, not through a friend, sometimes even on the street. Amway has varying levels too, yet where are the successful IBO’s? You can still be a 2,500 pin and at that point should have your system expenses covered. That would be a huge help no, isn’t that successful or on your way to becoming successful? Well, where are they? Could it be that….there aren’t very many if at all?

Here's the deal, no matter how you slice it, Amway doesn’t work. While I'm glad that James is making money, he is the very rare exception to the overwhelming rule. The bottom line is that if this business works for the small minority, then it doesn’t work at all, even if you build something, it can’t last due to the fact that your downline is losing money and will have to eventually quit. Check the fruit on the tree, or, put the puzzle pieces together. When you link the pieces, it creates a picture, and the picture for Amway isn’t good. Joe had wondered about the critics winning, it wasn't that critics, 'won' just that the evidence is pointing to a conclusion, which doesn't favor IBO's. Everywhere you look you find more evidence that points to a determination not favorable to Amway.

mrmaximum said...

Uh-oh we have an oft-quoted statistic that Joe regularly states, 98% of IBO's don't make it to platinum, and less than 1% make it to Diamond. Most IBO’s don’t make money and the turnover is about 70%. These statistics seem to fall in line with the picture we see out in the world, which would explain the lack of successful IBO’s in our lives. Then we have the Amway machine, which seems to speak negatively about 'critics propaganda'. Why is a business, which is so successful, SO upset about negative? McDonalds had a movie and several books written about it's highly fattening foods, yet we don't see them making any movies or books attacking Morgan Spurlock and his ilk. Why is that? Where are the negative critics, blogs, and the like bemoaning salesmen of all kinds for their unethical manner or the lack of money which is in Sales, how come I can’t seem to find them? Heck, Joe had a blog entry about ‘attacking the messenger’. Take it anyway you want to take it, but this is a sign of weakness. Since IBO’s have absolutely no ammunition to retaliate to a critic’s correct deliberation on the business, they resort to ad hominem attacks.

Just a tip; the reason why I don’t make a blog about how salesmen don’t make any money is because of the fact that since they do make money, I would look like an idiot. When salesmen would post their obviously verifiable evidence of success, the only way I could retaliate would be to attack them personally, as I couldn’t attack their argument. Hmmm, sound familiar?

Wishing upon wishing isn't going to make this 'business' work; I don't care how passionate you are. If you are traveling east looking for a sunset, you are simply going to waste your time. If this business worked like it said it did, everyone would know it.

Check the fruit on the tree, not very much good fruit on the good old Amway tree and the statistics seems to fall in line with what the critics are saying.

James Carlson said...

Joe,
I agree...at least on your directed statement toward me on April 27 here! ;)

And yes, Lucifer may be observing me nodding confidently to 'his' comment from the far corner.

Someday Joe, you'll maybe take up the opportunity to meet the us and even the team WE are building, that'll one day HOPEFULLY provide a chance for CHANGE from people losing anything except bondage, and with a new breed infused into the "system", expose what needs-be exposed, and support that which is worthy of supporting.

Remember Joe, I have a friendship developing with my personal sponsor, who himself is a major factor in Management Team within WWDB, and I believe respects me enough to clarify anything worth questioning, and establishing purity, if it be not-currently upheld.

Actually? Ron Puryear lives less than a mile from me, and I awoke last week at 5a.m. (when I normally don't 'til 10!), thinking I should, and now anticipate, knocking on his door, introducing myself, and aiming to befriend him~~perhaps even meet with him often, if he will. Should be interesting; I'm looking forward to hearing his actual heart, mind and intent...while sharing mine, as I believe he would care to know it. (for the possibly-unaware reader, he is the founder & President of WWDB.)

Faith, Hope, and Love is how I operate. In my gut/heart, I believe that he, my sponsor, and their spouses do as well...I'm looking forward to the days ahead in working with them all to progress a cleaner business if/as needed; not only in profits, but also in practices. I'm eager and solid, so I continue on! :)

Joecool said...

Hi James, I live in Hawaii so a face to face meeting is not likely.

If you don't mind, who is your upline diamond?

Ron Puryear? Yeah, I know he is the founder of WWDB. That means he may have been the origin of all the lies told by WWDB leaders such as nobody made a profit from tools or that WWDB was a non profit organization.

While your personal experience may vary, I hear comments about a recent leadership function held in Spokane and it seems that not much has changed in WWDB in the last dozen years or so.

I'm glad you are enjoying success. I wonder how your downline is faring collectively?

Peace be with you.

James Carlson said...

Thanks Joe. :)

He IS always with me. (Peace) ;)

I do mind, a little laying EVERYTHING on the table...unless you know me personally, and I trust your motive. Since that time has yet to come, let me simply state there are VERY few 'upline' between me and Ron. VERY. My 'upline diamond' is my personal sponsor, and I see no wise benefit to bring him into this forum's discussion at this time. Simply irrelevant for now. Thank you for asking kindly (it seems) and respecting my discernment in my answer.

"he may have been the origin"...Speculation, right?

I'm looking forward to talking with him face to face, man to man...and when granted the opportunity, I will decide whether to proceed in continuing pursuit of friendship with him; as of now, I would love to have my hope met with foundational, provable, undeniable truths in our progressing relationship. If 'let down' somehow, perhaps I could be influentual to even him and those who track with his 'origins' to grow and do (and teach) things even more ethically.

Your references to claims about profit/non-profit must have happened prior to my participation; since I've not heard such statements during my season herein, I refuse to judge someone's past that seems to be not carried on today. Apparent change to me, if the former be true (?)...and if so? I RESPECT the change the leaders have made. :)

Personally, though, I'd have no ethical issue if profits are made within a system, since their value is exceptionally high (worth it) for supporting my business team as it grows, no matter where it goes...saving me tons of money and TIME, as well as the team it supports...IF when asked (assuming the profits exist) that honest and relatively-transparent answers would be given. As a business owner within WWDB, the system IS very valuable to me, when properly applied, used, and experienced. I'll use business profits wisely to invest in various areas; sometimes back into the system for support of our efforts and lifestyle. Not because anyone, no matter whom, tells me I MUST, but because it makes sound business sense.

Next time I venture to Hawaii, I'll look you up to see if you'll be on the same island, k?

I see "my" downline often. They have no glossed-over look in their eyes, they don't hang on my every word as if I were a god. We are equals, and they are doing fine, by all abilities I have understanding their communication and functuality in daily life. Keep them in your prayers too, if you truly care for 'em. Otherwise, I don't know how to satisfy your "wonder-ment". ;)

Anonymous said...

Well, the business does not definitely have the growth it had in the 90's or 80's or before that. One of the reasons I definitely believe is due to the online blogs.

No matter how much you try to impress upon the prospects at the end of the meeting, that they should not google for information about Amway with profound statements like - as it is a search engine not a research engine, people who have never heard of Amway or know very little about Amway turn to google for more information and what do they find- pages after pages of Of experiences of ex-IBOs.

For people who are proud of WWDB, I want to ask, how many new WWDB diamonds , emeralds WWDB has created in the past 5 years? I had heard cds of Korean diamond, EDCs who were plugging in with WWDB in the past 5 years. The only new WWDB diamonds stories I heard were Tracey and Kimberly Eaton. Do correct me if I am wrong.

Dinosaur WWDB diamonds like Dave Severn would talk abt “show 10 or sponsor 2 (whichever comes first)” in cd after cd. I want to know how many IBOs are able to accomplish this right now?

Here I was showing 15-20 plans/month and was having such a tough time even bringing people to the open meetings and when I heard statements like “Show 10 or sponsor 2” or “u need to be 20 wide”- if not go fix that first- I just wanted to throw that cd out and throw up. ( Of course- you see, I did not get the results because I was not doing 9 core steps, or my belief level was not high, my home team was not right and million other things- It was never “yes, people who are doing the work you are doing are having the same problems.”)

James Carlson said...

mrmaximum,
I JUST read your comments.

Very well stated, thank you for adding your thoughts! :)

I'm learning a lot by hearing the thoughtful ideas shared by you all, as well as the 'tough' experiences people like Joe have shared. I do take deep note of such positions, as I truly care about my own identity, as well as those who may seek my counsel and leadership. Those in "my downline" WHO LISTEN TO ME (key-point) are not losing money. I know you don't know me, but if I hold any credibility to people anywhere, including here, you know I'm not going to stand for it. I (God help me) do everything in my capacity to free people from bondage, not drive them to it.

Many things you have stated above are partial and would take way too much time to explain, but I thank you for your thoughtful discourse. It helps me hone my conduct, as well as lead others without shame. I ache to help anyone stop living in secrecy, and instead encourage them to become a more vibrant and positively-influential force within society.

If I ever tread through your 'neck of the woods', I would hope that whatever wake follows me would provide evidence of: "oh hey! THERE they are! *sigh* At LOOOOONG last!"

:)

If you would note, however, I am the ONLY person I've found yet in ANY of these forums who posts my REAL name, which hyper-links to one of my REAL websites, that allows ANYONE to contact me at my REAL phone number, my REAL email, and even lists my REAL location...and heck! even has a picture of me and my beautiful wife. You didn't have to drive anywhere to find that out...I've come to YOU (as best I can thus far)! :)

Do you know WHY? Because MY FRIENDS (either current or yet to become) have and may come to such a forum by accident or not...and I wish for them to not be dissuaded from the truthful opportunities that my wife and I bring to them (amongst which include 'this' business), when up until now Joe, Amthrax, Tex, and multiple others would have otherwise lumped us in with all the whackos who claim the same banner as us (of "AMWAY"). Yes, many SHOULD be called out for THEIR improper activity. I commend the effort to criticize what is demanding of critics to fight...but please, if it be possible for you...do so with balanced clarity that there *just may be* an exception or a few who ARE legitimate, and not intentionally misleading others. There are those who are not milking money from others, but simply earning a living by serving & satisfying clinetele at their level with products and services, and properly duplicate such practice in leading others to do the same. In fact, the fruit on our tree has and will continue to become more and more evident in the forums of public, as well as the stages of business inspiration, we may someday stand upon, microphone in hand, sharing the Truth that JUST MAY set others free.

Perhaps the aforementioned are taking note, and will more-accurately blog their thoughts: posting clearly what they've experienced, omitting all heresay, gossip, speculation, and fabrications...WHILE allowing room within their comments to even state that there ARE people they've met, or they can acknowlege, that are doing things right...

Heck, I didn't come for it...but you're welcome to even refer people my way! :) And then? they could come back and share their testimonies of treatment, success or failure, and whether choosing to proceed with us and why. Just a thought. ;)

?

All the best,
~jc

Anonymous said...

These IBOs would have no problem in reading reviews at Yelp before deciding on a restaurant to eat, or reading online reviews before deciding on a doctor. They would absolutely have no problems with checking the reviews at orbitz.com or tripadvisor.com in deciding on a hotel to stay or the reviews in Amazon before deciding on an electronic product or IBO. These reviews are written by some XYZ who had experienced the product/service. IBOs do not have any problem in trusting the reviews written by some XYZ. Now Amway itself has a new feature about product review, I think just so that when people do a google search on any of the products, they will find 4 or 5 star rating written by faithful IBOs. I am sure now IBOs will use these reviews written by XYZ to convince their customers about the greatness of the products.

However when it comes to Amway business, their views about online review/opinions changes 180 degrees. IBOs will insist you cannot trust the opinion/review of some xyz who has supposedly failed/or did not have a good experience, but instead you should come meet with the person who has succeeded/had a great experience at this meeting/seminar/conference. They will claim that Internet is like a bathroom wall, where people can write anything that they want to. I dont understand why they dont do the same thing with the reviews/opinion written on sites like yelp, amazon, orbitz and so on. Why dont they insist on meeting only the people who had a good experience. Why don't they go check out a restaraunt/hotel which had a bad review and find out from the owner about his experience???

BTW, as a side note, now systems have started having facebook pages where IBOs share things. I was laughing my guts out when I saw on BWW facebook about a thread asking IBOs to share the most impressive nugget they have learnt from the recently concluded Spring Leadership. IBO’s sharing nuggets that they found impressive- which have been told and re-told a million times- is seriously a residual motivational income (you need to come up with these nuggets just once or better yet pass off something you read in a book as a thought of your own, then re-gurgitate the same talk in a slightly different way and have new IBOs go Ah.. Oh…Impressive.)

Joecool said...

Hi James, it almost sounds like you run a different type of group that would not be typical of WWDB. I have been reading a WWDB IBO's blog and he is calling plays right out of the WWDB playbook consistent with my experience. He says Amway/WWDB saves marriages and that IBOs have a2% divorce rate compared to 60% of the rest of the world and that he plans to buy a home in cash and retire his wife and all of the other hype.

While those are nice goals, I think the Amway saving marriages is bunk and the rest are unrealistic goals for someone to achieve thru the Amway business.

What do you think about Wolgamott's impending divorce and Greg Duncan's bankruptcy?

Anonymous said...

In a recent cd by Brad Duncan, who is a crown ambassdor ridiculed people who spent most of the time at Church related activities, ridiculed people who spent a lot of time driving around kids for their activities, in their games- he said that these parents are living their dreams through their kids.

I think systems like WWDB free up people from their previous bondage- read negative friends, activities and so on and let them be a bonded slave to the teachings and activities of WWDB.

Again if the teachings of the systems are so worth it- how many new diamonds/emeralds were broken in WWDB in the past few years???? How many diamonds requalified and went to Peter island or diamond club this year??? Why have not the diamond IBOs who are teaching- "Show ten or sponsor 2"-applied their own teaching and have moved on to EDC, double diamond and so on???

It is just not the low level IBOs who are not making it because of not totally committing, not being in sink with upline and all the tape talk junk- it is also IBOs who are platinums and above who have not been able to move on to the next level inspite of "making it happen", "playing injured" for zillion years.

James Carlson said...

Anon(s),
sorry about the posting order of my comments and yours, as mine were sent in hours ago, awaiting approval and posted amidst your(s) comment(s). :)

Joe, thanx for the acknowlegement. My goal is not recognition though; here, in Amway, or WWDB. I want to IMPACT people anywhere for positive change. (I believe I'll be recognized on the other side of this Place, but even then, any rewards will yet not be mine for fulfillment of Self.) Diamond is not my goal. Nor is Crown. I was able to retire in '05, which was when my wife was a friend of mine, yet to be my girlfriend...we retired her almost 3 years ago. This business is what we do for income. Debt free on all counts, except our mortgage as stated before.

Now Joe, as to W & D you asked my opinion on...if you wanna know? I'm saddened by both. I myself grew up in a home which was broken. However, there is ALWAYS room for reconciliation, so long as breath resides in the bodies of each AND it is CHOSEN to be worked out. My parents remarried each other at a later date, which IS a huge part of my intimacy with my Lord, so I have a bit-unique perspective there as well. ;) Marraige is a huge thing and I'd fight with all of me to keep a family unit together whenever granted the opportunity. Money doesn't save anything. Surplus of it or lack of it simply exposes the character of its holder. Just like the internet.

VISION is what was lost for that home. Someone lost sight, got distracted, and/or allowed corruption to enter their character. I know enough detail of the situation to crave for the opportunity to confront it in person. (can I, can I?!) "For a lack of vision, my people perish." Yup, He's right still!

Greg D.? I'm upset that the economy takes another hit. What he does with his money and possessions is between him, the law, and God. Not for me to judge...I don't follow the guy. However, I surely hope he faces it transparently as a man, and that anyone who DOES follow his suggestions, does so with discernment. Just because he files bankruptcy does not mean he has no money. How he chooses to navigate with his stuff only shows me that he clearly did not buy that place with cash--so he shouldn't claim they do (if he did), or everyone else should. Biblically, no one should really be entering into any debt, but even *I* did by marrying my wife who had purchased a home in-part with a mortgage prior to our marriage. I think she did choose quite-wisely for the situation though, to be honest. Who knows, could bite even US too, hey?! But I would know that I was forewarned, and don't fake it otherwise. I suppose if I 'produce' children we'd be forcing them into our national debt too, but then we're getting extreme!

I hope both of these camps you bring up, rectify their respective wrongs. I suppose that would have been saying enough, and just leaving it at that. Since I don't know them personally, I'll continue working with the people who come into our lives, doing my BEST to preserve the VISION of their family, and purpose in life...and help equip them to FULFILL it more and more with each passing day!

James Carlson said...

Fundamentally, where I believe MOST IBOs blow it, is they come in needing some cash...are shown numbers that 'provide' a way to become millionaires. (Immediately, they often forget that a few bucks alone would be GREAT! and aim for the top of the top...the highest there has EVER been!! Why? Because IT LOOKS SOOOOO PRETTY! Sounds familiar of the Original fall, hey?!) Anyway, Justifiable numbers IF/when someone creates enough flow of product through their work of referrals in "width and depth" as shown in the "plan". BUT, often they forget why they sat down in the first place to "see the plan". (or others who had the SOLE goal of Get-t-ing the mo-nee, were likely facing a huge growth-curve to begin with.) They commit to a life of immediate imbalance, and seek out something that exceeds their character to handle it. Often in the process, they alienate themselves from proper societal function, being willing to abuse other people to get what THEY think they want, without regard to the Counsel available to all, exemplified (sorry if ya don't like to hear it) by the Lord. And 'soon' they QUIT when everything is in disarray after whatever time their tolerance allows EVEN IF they were actually making enough to justify participation in the biz, since they didn't become the hero, the walk-off Grand Slam, the Michael Jordan of our industry!! (Anyone relating to this??? *ahem*) In their wake is any observer who associates their ABSURD conduct with the same-titled business I can discipline my SELF to properly pursue. They burn out, leaving 'dead bodies' behind, bad experiences pushed on to others...and yet I, am left to work on bringing healing. Nothing new here though for me and the Task at hand--the same is true of just about any venue in life. Keep it real. Life is what it is...I'm playing my role, in strength and awareness.

Members of "my" group recently asked me why I don't sit at the round tables as "eagle" and so forth. I clearly explain that I got in this business to profit and help others do the same to THEIR level of desire. I do NOT instruct 'followers' to sign up for 'this gizmo', or buy into that (whatever item of 'work ethic') "in order to make it". If I did, the parameters for me to carry a special badge and place my hiney-cheeks in a special chair at a special table would quite-easily be fulfilled, and everyone in stadiums would think I'm something great. EVERYONE is something great, if they lay down their lives for someone else...no greater love can ever be shown.

I constantly remind teammates WHY they got on board. If they wanna go for becoming diamond in 2-5 years, I unabashedly say: "here's the system being taught by those who did it. (there have been things added over the years to current-ize C.O.R.E., and weren't around when most of 'em did it back in the day, but hey, I digress.) You can 'plug in'. It will cost you about $2000.00 a year, but your business can make that amount easily, if done right. However, my friend...I'll always be here to serve you, and help you accomplish a reasonable level of profitability 'on the lean' if that is where you need take/keep it, until it makes GOOD business sense to invest in things that could likely aid the development of your growing team. I like you as a person, want to keep you in my life, and never have you feel like our interaction and your involvement became burdensome. We come together to PROGRESS, not regress or lose ground."

Anonymous said...

Just went to a seminar last night and wow its amazing how they suck you into the whole success story they got going on. It's very convincing and I commend them on such a good job in making people believe it's the best thing to ever happen to them. However, I was pretty skeptical about it..it seemed like a deal too good to be true, and even my friend was telling me how good of a deal this is. I talked to one of the members and he SPECIFICALLY told me NOT to google Amway global because he said that the information people post is uncredible and false. That made me think twice about this proposition they offer.

They did exactly what i have read..about all these success stories and dream houses and cars. But on some of these peoples faces as they were saying how they had all these houses and cars etc...it just seemed so fake. I guess this is irrelevant to the topic at hand but i just wanted to share my thoughts. I'm 19 years old for reference haha.

just my 2 cents.

--James N.

James Carlson said...

Personally, I see it as a blessing that many don't "make it" sometimes, to save us all from likely abuses they maybe would commit if they'd have acquired "power, riches, and fame". Apparently, some holding those 'tools' in all walks of life, including some leaders in the "world of Amway" have done enough wrongs as it is.

I've been 'prospected' by SO many different things: biz ops, careers, big-other-kinda-money...many of which I refused SIMPLY because the APPROACHER is someone who demonstrated a complete lack of things I'd want to follow, or adhere my identity to. (Yup, Amway itself may not appear a pretty machine sometimes, but as I'VE found in my EXPERIENCES, when properly applied...is the best 'vehicle' I've come across thus far to provide the LIFE I wanna live with my family, and also allowing for the 'reach' I'll have in my prosperity beyond just the money, while genuinely providing BENEFIT to those I reach into with sponsorship, friendship, or as clientele with products/services provided.)

I'm sure WWDB has its fair share of issues too..BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE IN IT!!! What doesn't?! I'm sure leaders in my CHURCH of 8000 people have lied, lusted after others sometime in their life (even currently?), cheated in various ways, misused the church's income, and maybe even mistreated numerous people. Heck! I'm a leader there too, and HUMAN, not perfect, right? I don't quit or degrade them. When I make a mistake, I try to correct it. I'm not called to tuck tail when faced with a challenge. I HAVE MY CHANCE to serve, impact, and encourage anyone I'm near to live rightly, even according to Design...and I'll carry on with the strength and means provided me, eager to accomplish it however far-reaching it may become.

If it matters? We do NOT conduct business at our church, nor view it whatsoever as a prospecting ground! Perhaps some of the things you're starting to understand about me is clear enough as to why we are leading with success, and enjoying a bountiful life? Anyone's welcome to be a part of the revolution! ;) YUP including those upline, crossline, dotted-line, or bee-line, and near-flatline. You KNOW I'm smiling...AND that the Devil hates me.

:D

Joecool said...

James, Carlson,

Thanks for your contribution. It sounds like you are a rare IBO who is building the business in an ethical manner.

Regards to Greg Duncan, I have been in touch with some WWDB IBOs and they said that Greg has never filed bankruptcy, that it is a bunch of fabricated lies. True transparency. Not sure how they got IBOs to believe that one though.

Tex said...

Hi, my name is Tex. I forgot that I am banned from this blog due to abusive behavior and language. I am truly sorry to Joe for my abusive behavior.

I am also a racist as evidenced by comments on other blogs and I am a redneck who enjoys getting cozy with my male cousins.

mrmaximum said...

Well James, I have to echo Joe in the hope that you are indeed an IBO who doesn’t subscribe to the current paradigm, which only serves to hurt innocent people who simply want more. If this is indeed the case, I do wish you well, but I must admit that I find some issue with some of what you said.

1. Amway being the very best vehicle to attain wealth. Sorry, but I don’t believe that whatsoever. I can believe it depending on what it is that people want to do with their lives, and maybe this is the case with you. As it being the best hands down, I think not. If it where, Warren Buffet and men of his ilk would be considering it, which they are not.
Amway is no more special a business than anything else out there. I saw what you had stated about the ‘people’ ruining Amway, and you being happy that it is as hard as it is. Here is the deal, everywhere you look, in other arenas and venues, you will see a spectrum of ‘success’ as it where. You will see lazy people who do nothing, some people who work ‘just a little’ some who will work quite a bit and get somewhere, and others who will work smarter and better than the others and achieve significant levels. This is what I was refereeing to when I spoke about the Realtors earlier and the fact that when something ‘work’s there is no way to hide it. It doesn’t matter what the venue, exercise, church, sales, work, etc, etc, you will encounter quite a few people at varying levels of this spectrum…..except in Amway. There is nothing special about Amway, which makes it a suitable exception, nowhere that it makes up for this shortcoming. If perhaps the Big pins did indeed make long term residual income, perhaps then, but in WWDB there has been rumblings of pins going backward (Dave and Jan Severn going form EDC to Diamond) and the like. Something is rotten in Denmark. There are people ‘messing about’ in other arenas as well, not just Amway. We have all heard about some very nasty things in the Catholic Church as, yet I have also met quite a few people who can offset this negative with their own benefits….have we heard this before?

mrmaximum said...

What am I trying to say? Simple, in your life, in ANYONE’S life, they will meet varying levels of people in fitness, income, hobbies, and other things worth achieving. One will meet anyone across the spectrum, be they lazy do nothing’s, or ambitious do it alls, WE WILL MEET THEM. We DON’T in Amway , we don’t for a reason. You will see those who are doing things VERY well and being compensated for it VERY well, people who are doing this…well average and being compensated for it accordingly, and then you will see those who are lazy and doing nothing and being compensated for that too. Yet Amway, is the exception? No, it isn’t, and there is nothing inherent in Amway, which offsets this situation whatsoever. The only thing, which seems constant in Amway is that the system is horribly flawed, so that even if you do indeed do the work involved, Follow the 9 team player steps, be core and show the plan, there is still no guarantee that you will even sponsor someone much less go Diamond. This is wrong, and proves that it isn’t the people who are lazy, but an issue with the system. This is why I brought up salesmen, they have nothing to fall back on, yet we have salesmen of all creeds and levels contributing to society…..where are the Amway IBO’s who are contributing? Apologists want nothing more than to shut critics up, however, there is only one way to do so….success. There where critics who also slagged Franchising, they went the way of the Dodo for obvious reasons. Who precisely in this day and age will ask whether Franchising works? We see the results everywhere we look and would have to work harder to avoid the obvious than to see it. If Amway worked, and IF people where the ones who loused it up, then it would be an institution which wasn’t questioned just like sales, fitness, or any other proven paradigm. Which…it…isn’t.

If you feel this is your calling, good for you, but do not fool yourself thinking that you are in some anointed business, because I can tell you that you aren’t. You are in nothing different than anyone else, just that the success rate is much less smaller for reasons which are more insidious than the average person must normally deal with.
I still wish you good luck, but I give you some words of warning is all.

James Carlson said...

mrmaximum,

I read through your comments, and once again clearly see your message. As you describe it, (get this) I agree with most of it, disagree with (yep) most of it, but DO agree that Amway is not anointed...let me clarify... LOL! it is not my "calling"!! ;)

How can I agree AND disagree with most of it, at the same time? In your mind, you could misjudge and say I'm confused --haha-- but actually it makes sense when applied to the majority, which I rarely find myself fitting within. ;) Personally, I've seen nothing better than where my pursuit takes me. Wanna sit down in person and show me better? I welcome the visit. No one ever has. And I've put out the invitation for years. Not one has.

Via blogs? LMSBO!!! You kiddin'? I trust the sanity behind your communication that you surely know that HERE, the things written can often only be applied properly to limited areas of life. Much of your statements simply don't define my life, nor the higher percentages of my experiences. However, they DO apply to many of my OBSERVATIONS of others.

Hopefully that makes sense.

You comment on Warren Buffet. I do not know that I'd follow the man's advice beyond the monetary (since I don't know him, nor have I studied the guy for any duration)...but since you bring up "men of his ilk"...(again, I do NOT really regard the following "successful" guy as someone I'd lean upon, but for some that MAY be "of his ilk")...did you know that Donald Trump (some regard him as a wealthy and prudent man...I'm yet unsure! LOL) publicly endorses network marketing? I DOUBT that Buffet does. Did you also know that Bill Gates "wastes money" to take the time to pick up a loose $20 bill (possibly even 100s)? He's wiser to put his efforts into progressing things on his level of returns. So OF COURSE these men would shake down such 'opportunities' from getting in their way! (Even Trump wouldn't WORK to build something so relative to his financial prowess, but can see the value in such pursuits for those who have not the capital or capacity to duplicate what he has done.) The return on the investment of such men would be a waste of time and effort for them.

For you and I...in an attempted analogy, MOST of us know it makes sense to pick up a nickel, EVEN if we hafta walk to the distance on the edge of our sight to get to it! As a matter of fact, the typical consumer I often encounter will drive to ANOTHER TOWN to save a few cents on a gallon on gas (in smaller areas, and miles-away while in larger cities), when men of Buffet's "ilk" spend HOW MANY thousands of dollars of jet fuel (or whatever their machine-of-choice uses) in their chosen modes of transportation, and likely never even burp at a thought of how much it's 'costing' them. Right?

I suppose what I'm saying is that I SHOULD HAVE stated not just something to create wealth, but something duplicatable that ANYONE (well, atleast I believe it) can also do. To become a millionaire?! Nope, not anyone. To pay some bills, or have 'some' worthwhile return of their investment?

YES!! Atleast in what I've experienced, as well as those on 'my team'.

*nodding* An exception? Well, I don't judge others, and in similar-tune, I rarely brag on others either. Let them do it themselves, if they choose. I try not to do it myself, cuz I don't want you come-moochin' on my lifestyle...our Government is already invasive enough! :)

mrmaximum said...

You talk about Blogs and such and try to change tactics on me, which is fine, but you haven’t proved an Iota that Amway works. Then again, it’s very hard to prove that copper is gold now isn’t it? You may talk about how little things which are spoken about on a blog can be applied narrowly to things in reality, and what do you mean by THAT statement? Let’s try this;

effort level;

Lazy - Below average -Average – Above Average – Superstar – Elite

Real Estate per annum

Broke – $20,000 - $45,000 – $75,000 – $100,000 – $250,000+

Fitness

Obese – Hit and miss at the gym - Average size and weight – Athletic looking – Very fit, muscular – A MACHINE

Martial Arts (a hobby)

Couch potato- inconsistent – Fairly Competent, may compete – Competes often, places high, may win tourneys – Competes regularly, wins VERY regularly - Competes internationally Olympics, World Championships.

This is what I mean James, and this is also something, which you or anyone else cannot deny. Everywhere you look, you will see a spectrum such as this, we first learned about it grade school, the grading system remember this isn’t something I invented. You would have to spin things in order not to see this spectrum. If you don’t, this tells me more about you than anything else. This is the reason why our parents tell us to ‘work harder, put in more effort'. The more we invest, the better our return. However, for whatever reason, others and I do not see this in the Amway business and WE are in the vast aggregate of people. This is a poor reflection on Amway that the people who go for the gusto and give it their all don’t seem to end up as well as the lazy do nothing who invested little or nothing. I hope you trust the sanity behind that communication as this spectrum is readily apparent so anyone willing to look and see.

See at the end of the day, we all know these patterns exist. If you are going to tell me that it doesn’t all I need to tell you is LOOK OUT YOUR WINDOW. We see this spectrum so often that we take it for granted. The same reasons why we don’t see it in Amway are the VERY same reasons why it has so many critics. While I won’t lie, we will every so often encounter exceptions to this rule, they are very rare, to the point that common sense alone will tell us that they have been blessed (or cursed depending on the situation) with something which assists them (or holds them back) more than normal.

While I did like your Donald Trump story, there is unfortunately more to it than you’d like to think. Yes the Donald was on the Tonight Show, and when Johnny Carson asked what he would do if he lost his fortune and his answer is fairly well known.

“Id become and Amway Distributor.”

However…he said it with a rye grin and the audience laughed. He was being facetious my good man, so what do you think that means? Think he really considers Amway all that great? BTW He did lose his fortune in the past, did he enroll in Amway, then Quixtar, nope, he stayed in real estate, and made his money back. Maybe Warren Buffett doesn’t care for the spiritual side of the business and you wouldn’t want to follow him, but that has nothing to do with the tea in China. If Amway were as powerful a business vehicle as it makes itself out to be, it would attract the attention of people like Buffett who would follow the money and sign up, period.

mrmaximum said...

Ever heard of John Sestina? He was a successful financial planner and he enrolled because of the very same reasons you have many years ago. On his tapes he was presented as a person to legitimize the business for his acumen before enrolling. What would it say to the world if Warren Buffett Enrolled? We both know what that would mean but the ‘Oracle of Omaha’ didn’t get to the point he is at for making many bad choices.

You may not want to follow these people because they may not be godly or what have you, but if the situation works and produces tangible results, like-minded people will flock. I remember reading about a Christian Strongman in America who wanted to use his strength for Christ. Just a few days ago, I watched on youtube a black Christian power lifter who was bench-pressing 600lbs. You can google it yourself if you don’t believe me (hint, when the results are there, EVERYONE can see them). I personally don’t know many ridiculously fit Christians, but I do know of quite a few fit people. I and many others don’t know many successful IBO’s and like everyone else, am trying to figure out why.

We don’t see elite level athletes blood doping or taking steroids because they think it MAY work, they take them because they DO work. If you have found the best business for you, great, if anyone can’t show you anything better for achieving your goals, once more great. If you are telling me that no one has shown you a better vehicle for making money than Amway, that tells me more about you than the possible vehicles available.

We can argue back and forth all day, and to be honest, I really don’t give a rip. I’m not the one whose part of a business, which has yet to be proven, and after 50 years lags behind Avon which is chiefly a cosmetics MLM. Amway makes 8 billion dollars a year and had a very diverse product line, Wal-Mart also has a very diverse product line and has been around for 48 years made 404 Billion dollars last year. Large difference, very large difference pretty hard to argue that Wal-Mart is a failure now isn’t it?. Amway is a business, and as such, it will be judged by the same criteria as other businesses. If you say there are things you see or don’t see in life, that’s your call, but the bible says ‘Check the fruit on the tree’ for a reason James, and results are undeniable, this would be the reasons why it was there, right?. As I have said before, good luck, but I won’t be holding my breath that you will reach success in this business. It wouldn’t be your fault, far from it, you simply can’t teach a pig to sing. Do what you must, if this is what makes you happy, then go for it, however, this is only one way to prove us critics wrong, DO IT.

The one thing I love to say is that there where a ton of critics against Franchising too, they where shut up by the vast success of that business model. You want to shut us all up James, build it and build it huge. I have no issue with apologizing for what I have said if proven wrong, all you have to do is do it, like Nike, right? The issue is that most IBO’s CAN’T, not that it’s their faults, just a faulty business system is all.

James Carlson said...

:)

mrmaximum....
Thanx for taking the time to re-state your already clear position, in different words, and again readily-understandable discourse. I do appreciate your comments. I KNOW many IBOs in Amway would feel shaken-down by your statements, as well as many who may stumble into this forum, that were (once/still) considering the opportunity. I, however, was nodding while reading...aware of what I'm really into, and how to go about DOING IT. ;)

You are mistaken thinking that WE were arguing! :)

Honestly, I didn't even know Trump ever made that comment about Amway. :) I simply know he currently endorses various forms of network marketing, as I've been informed by friends I have who are in pursuit of making their respective business models work (or trying) -- and they are not in Amway, for whatever it's worth. :)

My goal has never been to shut you up, or even these other critics. LOL, you KNOW you should give me a *bit* more credit than that! :p My goal is to live out my Purpose, and help others do the same.

mrmax.. you know I'm a Christian, or to some point agreeably, seem to demonstrate the characteristics of a true one at that. I will attempt to make a point here, and then I'll digress:

Christianity, from the bystanders view, such as you have of 'these' businesses, is NOT WORKING either. In America, it's losing ground. Less than 2% of Americans (who CLAIM to be Christian) even share their 'faith'! The rest? Take 'it' to the grave. Islam, Mormonism, and most-certainly agnosticism/atheism are growing so-way-much faster here. Weigh out those facts on your spectrum. I'm not changing tactics; never was trying to prior...simply stating that your stances may suffice for the reasoning of a skeptic, but not for this man who knows who he is, what I'm holding onto (which is surely much more than a simple li'l business), and where I'm going.

Does that mean I should quit, become selfish like the rest of the world, and believe that I TOO can be God?! The ENTIRE WORLD (almost) believes in SELF, and lives out every breath to serve their god.

I TOTALLY agree that the numbers do not lie. However, I've MET and currently KNOW some of these IBOs who are even the ones who "go for the gusto and giving it their all"...and yes, FAILING. Yep, it's getting back up again (all success comes out of failings)...but when you do, make the necessary changes to progress, with the CHANCE to succeed (and sometimes accomplished). For many, that means stepping away from the arena, simply not willing to make the proper developments to create legitimate profitability. There's much more to the battle than people know/expect.
Every one of the "success stories" I've heard of even in the Amway biz, to my recollection, had people who were failing (often drastically) prior to a breakthrough. In your spectrums presented, everyone of those success stories came out of massive investment and pain. Surely we know that that's not an infallible equation, or with automatic predictability. However, the common man who takes on a large endeavor, expecting such success to come easy, are often the dead bodies, broken boned, bloody-nosed people I believe you are seeing. Of course, there are untold numbers like (atleast the claims of) Joecool here, that I believe were poorly coached (to put it mildly), which translates into a poor gameplan that when dealing with the vital ingredient of PEOPLE, are oft doomed even prior to accurate implementation.

Finally,
You stated twice in your statements above a curiosity, or an attempt to gain understanding of the kind of person I am. Writing back and forth will never do either of us justice. If you ever want to know, I DO "give a rip" about you, and would be happy to reveal the truth of myself face to face, man to man, eye to eye, in a friendly manner...any time you'd like. I seriously mean that, if you yourself ever do give a rip about me, or the people I serve. :)

Anonymous said...

james, YOU ARE FULL OF CRAP!

there. i feel so much better now. :D