Wednesday, July 26, 2017

Amway University?

Many Amway IBOs justify their involvement in the system of cds, tapes, books and seminars by comparing it to college. They claim they need this education and that it is much cheaper when compared to a college or university. Of course this is the upline propaganda that IBOs are fed, much like the concept that a job is a bad idea. While college tuition has increased greatly in recent years, there are still ways to fund college in affordable ways. Sure, you may not get the college of your choice but you can still get educated. And it is a fact that college grads do better financially than non college grads.

In college, it is true that not everyone graduates, but approximately half of those who start college end up graduating. Those who do not graduate still benefit from their education on a year to year or course by course basis. When you are job seeking, a college degree will give you more options than those who don't educate. This claim cannot be made by Amway IBOs. The education an IBO receives by seminars and cds do not even equate to success in Amway, much less in other venues in life. Only a small fraction of IBOs ever reach platinum, which supposedly is the break even point. So as an IBO, you have less than one half of a one percent chance to break even as compared to approximately a 50% chance of graduating college.

Also, once you graduate and receive your degree/diploma, it is complete. Your Amway education is never ending. And it is never ending because your Amway education is a primary source of income for the emeralds and diamonds. How much training do you really need to buy, sell and sponsor downline, which is what the Amway business is about. Also, there are many many many examples of people who reached levels as high as diamond or above who could not maintain the level. There are also many examples of diamonds who quit Amway. If there were such a thing as "residual" income, why would anyone quit when they could sit back and watch the cash roll in. I think the answer is quite obvious. Amway residual income is a myth. It's like the legend of bigfoot. Everyone's seen and heard about bigfoot but nobody has ever proven that they exist. Anyone able to prove that there's a diamond who had 6 platinums and "walked away" from Amway to collect residual income forever?

There is also no evidence (as far as I know) that your Amway related education of cds and seminars actually work. The tiny fraction of 1% of successful IBOs is not a good case for arguing the success of the system. Colleges on the other hand, has accreditation standards, which is nothing like the ineffective Amway accreditation of groups such as BWW, WWDB or Network 21. People who argue that all the "successful" diamonds used the system is like arguing that the lottery is a good financial plan because I can prove that there are "winners". In both Amway and the lottery, the winners enjoy the winnings but the winnings come from the participants. Diamonds rake in the winnings from downline and lottery winners rake in winnings from all the lottery losers.

The fact that IBOs even dare to compare a college education to their teaching in Amway is a joke. Try telling a prospective employer about your Amway education and see what that gets you.

14 comments:

Brandon Zollman said...

You are an idiot.

Joecool said...

And what are you? Some kind of shining example of an IBO who was made "nicer" because you're in Amway? Seriously, you IBOs do more harm than good with your unprovoked insults.

kwaaikat said...

Thanks for your great insight and profoundly original comment Brandon.

I can see how it helps your cause. Now that you put it that way, people that are trying to make up their minds will see the arguments made in this blog in a new light. You make a great point and I'm sure that because of that, many undecided people are going to take what Joe Cool is saying with a grain of salt. I for one have beep approached and never tried the opportunity, but your comment got me thinking that maybe I should.

At least you did not use a fitting adjective before "idiot" as I'm sure the old Brandon would have done. Maybe the training does make IBO's better people after all.

Anonymous said...

The only thing Amway teaches you is that you must send an unending stream of money up-line, for the rest of your life.

Brandon Zollman is probably one of those Amway assholes who spends four hundred dollars a month to get a ten-buck refund check.

Jeremy said...

Listen guys I am a IBO myself. I have just started in the business but there is no myth. The myth is that amway will pay you for nothing. You get paid for the work you do, not just by creating a downline. The team is how you create security and profit. But think about it, how is the amway business any different from a normal business? I have no idea how amway was before but now it is a legitimate business venture. In 1979 the FTC deamed this business legitimate and not a scheme. As far as the education part goes, the cds, books, and online training are all for the betterment of the ibos themselves. Some items create inspiration, some provide mechanics, and others provide a way for you to just better yourself. As far as the upline making money, of course. It is a business. But as a new ibo my upline has yet to make me pay for anything. They have provided me with everything. Not all teams are the same in this amway business but you can't judge a business on a couple of shady individuals. I am sorry you guys have such a negative outlook on this and I hope one day you can be open minded. Till then this was an interesting read and take on the amway business, so I do appreciate your opinion. Have a great one!

Joecool said...

Jeremy said: "You get paid for the work you do"

That is not true. You don't get paid for the work you do. You get paid for volume. You can work your tail off and get paid nothing. You only get paid for results. Thus you are a commission only Amway sales person.

Jeremy said: "FTC deamed this business legitimate and not a scheme"

That is not true. The FTC found that Amway was not an illegal pyramid. The FTC did not say Amway was a good or legitimate business.

I'm curious Jeremy, what have you accomplished in the Amway business? Somehow I suspect you are losing money due to the cds, voicemail and functions.

Jeremy said...

Ok Joe you have very good points. Let me ask you this, in any commission based position do you not have to put work in, in order to see results?

Secondly I have read the court ordered FTC decision. You are correct it does not say "Amway is a legitimate business". What it does say is that Amway complies with FTC regulations so in essence isn't that saying Amway is a legitimate business?

And for your final retort, I have not paid for any cds, my team has provided them for me. And as far as functions go I did go to the summer conference in Dallas this year and my mentor actually paid to meet me there and he paid for me and my wife to go.

I will ask you this, with any business, do you not need to invest your time and money initially? I mean when you open up a normal business you have to get a loan, put yourself in debt, and then sacrifice your time and effort. So how is starting up your own Amway business any different? It is a smaller initial investment and honestly you dont have to buy the cds or go to the functions, it is recommended. No one is holding a gun to your head saying you NEED to do this.These are just tools. As with any business, don't you need tools to succeed?

I don't claim to know all but I have done my research on this company. The bad and the good. As I have said earlier I am sorry you had such a bad experience. Although I do love debating so as I said before it is a good read. I just think you should also put some pros with the cons because with anything in life there will be good and bad. It is up to you to decide which side holds more "pull".

John Doe said...

Jeremy said, "The myth is that amway will pay you for nothing."

That's an interesting myth. I have never heard that one before, and have never seen any IBO or anti-Amway person suggest that exists. I believe that is a myth of a myth.

Jeremy said, "The team is how you create security and profit."

That is a fancy way of saying the focus is on recruiting and not selling products. The security should come from selling a viable product in the marketplace that many people want to purchase because they need it. It should not be coming from a "team" (downline subordinates) that are forced to pay monthly auto-ships or face the loss of their checks.

Jeremy said, "But think about it, how is the amway business any different from a normal business?"

A "Normal" business focuses on the sale of a good or service. Amway focuses on the sale of a dream and feeds on hope and vulnerability. They are -- COMPLETELY different.

Jeremy said, "In 1979 the FTC deamed [sic] this business legitimate and not a scheme."

While that is technically true, they also came out with specific conditions in which Amway and every other MLM are supposed to abide. Has Amway ever mentioned those conditions? Did you know you must have at least 10 retail customers a month before you can start recruiting a downline? (https://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes) Can it really be considered a "win" when you have to settle for 150 million dollars or face being shut down?

Jeremy said, "As far as the education part goes, the cds, books, and online training are all for the betterment of the ibos themselves. Some items create inspiration, some provide mechanics, and others provide a way for you to just better yourself."

But, none of them provide you with the information to run the "business". None of them teach you about the rules and regulation of MLM. None of them teach you how to properly measure your margins. None of them teach you -- anything pertaining to actual business. Let's be fair, you are paying hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to be told a bunch of BS that will never help you reach "financial freedom".


Jeremy said, " Not all teams are the same in this amway business but you can't judge a business on a couple of shady individuals."

Oh god, the old "My team is different" line. Guess what buddy, it isn't. Your "team", just like the rest, is only designed to do one thing, extract money from you. They won't be giving you free stuff forever, and as long as you are paying your monthly auto-ship, and your tools fees, and your seminar tickets, then they are getting exactly what they want.

Jeremy said, "I am sorry you guys have such a negative outlook on this and I hope one day you can be open minded."

Well, it isn't a "negative outlook" when you are looking at facts. We are actually "open minded" because we have looked at the "opportunity" thoroughly and found it to be a crock of shite. Heck Joe built one of the more successful businesses, and he still didn't make any money. How is that for "open minded"?

Maybe it is time for you to be "open minded" and do a little more research. Ask a few more hard hitting questions. Read about the full history of Amway with Rehnborg, Mytinger and Casselbury, and then DeVos and Van Andel. You might just find the light.

Joecool said...

Jeremy said: ""Secondly I have read the court ordered FTC decision. You are correct it does not say "Amway is a legitimate business". What it does say is that Amway complies with FTC regulations so in essence isn't that saying Amway is a legitimate business?""

The FTC made the faulty assumption that the "Amway protections" against pyramiding were actually enforced. They are not. That led to a hoard of MLM's popping up and copying Amway's set up to appear legitimate. See the most recent 2016 FTC versus Herbalife and that will shed some light on the subject. In essence, product sales to non distributors will be required. That will kill most MLMs if properly enforced.

Jeremy said: "And for your final retort, I have not paid for any cds, my team has provided them for me. And as far as functions go I did go to the summer conference in Dallas this year and my mentor actually paid to meet me there and he paid for me and my wife to go."

Then you must be a new IBO. If and when you sponsor someone, guess what? You'll be paying for your donwline to attend that next function. A real business owner must invest in their business right? I suspect your sponsor will never recoup the cost of your function, which he paid for.

Jeremy said: "I will ask you this, with any business, do you not need to invest your time and money initially? I mean when you open up a normal business you have to get a loan, put yourself in debt, and then sacrifice your time and effort. So how is starting up your own Amway business any different? It is a smaller initial investment and honestly you dont have to buy the cds or go to the functions, it is recommended. No one is holding a gun to your head saying you NEED to do this.These are just tools. As with any business, don't you need tools to succeed?"

In an MLM business like Amway, there is supposed to be zero or very little overhead, giving you the ability to profit right away, Instead, the diamonds "create the overhad" (Amway training) because the diamonds make a significant amount of money from selling you training.

And no, you don't need tools to succeed. You need a demand for your products and customers with that demand. Some tools might be helpful but without customers and a demand, you have no business. The tools related to the Amway business are non income producing. The Amway tools cost you money but rarely help anyone to increase sales.

CDs - cost money. Does it result in more sales? Functions - cost money but does it result in more sales? If these tools "cost you money" but doesn't result in more sales, then what good is it to have them?

Brandon Zollman said...

The people that complain about this are the ones who were lazy and never actually did the work in the first place. Don't be jealous of the people who actually make it work. Just because you were lazy and sit around hoping your upline would build the business for you does not make Amway the worst business in the world. And if you were really a grown up and not a little cry baby, you would put your name in the comments.

Joecool said...

Brandon Zollman, what have you accomplished in Amway?

Anonymous said...

Dear Brandon Zollman:

Why don't you give us the names, income figures, and other financial details of the "people who actually make it work"? And don't give us the name of some decrepit Diamond who's pushing 70. Tell us about those mythical young Amway types who started at 20, and have retired at 25, and who are now walking the beaches of the world.

And yes, by all means tell us what you have accomplished so far in Amway.

Anonymous said...

To Brandon Zollman (Fellow IBO) my name is Robert Faulkner, and as an IBO myself I apologize but I am going to have to agree with Joe Cool on this one. Your Upline is lending you Tools so they can lay the proper foundation, which teaches you about the Dream and inoculates you to the techniques essential as you create a profitable Network. However, not to be negative because I too believe in this business, but if your Upline has paid for you and your wife to attend a major function then they are being desperate. Obviously it’s essential to get you to that Function so you can learn, grow, and get motivated, but more importantly to develop a relationship with you to keep you connected and involved. But if they place value on the function then you would pay to go yourself, but since your brand new the Upline might be trying to hook you by offering something of value for free. (Congrats by the way) Problem is… (as Joe Cool pointed out) that paying for that is no guarantee that you will buy anything, join the team, or sell any products. I don’t want to disrespect your sponsor or your team, but eventually you will find that your BUYING, not selling. What I mean is … make the “Focus” of your exposures (aka showing the plan) about finding or bringing people into your team that will build it with or without you, as they tend to stick. Keep in mind most of your exposures will be No’s and most of the people who join you in the start of your business won’t stay with you, but if you can maintain consistency eventually your group will grow.

Here are some figures that the upline hasn’t mentioned yet, that Joe Cool is trying to warn you about.

Amway Tool Expenses (based on my involvement from 2016 to 2018)

Dream CD $7 + Leadership CD $7 per week = $14 14 x 52 weeks a year = $728
Monthly Book $20 20 x 12 months = $240
Monthly Business Development Seminar $22 22 x 11 months = $242
Major Rally & Functions $120 120 x 4 events a year = $480
Free Enterprise Celebration $150 150 X 1 a year = $150
Miscellaneous Tools Expense Per Year $500

Total Amway Business Expenses $2340 per year
Based on the:
Downeast Support System – Founders Diamonds The Bryan Family

I do not include Gas, Car Repairs, Hotels, Airplane Tickets, and other such expenses because they are in fact CHOICE EXPENSES.
That essentially means they are based on your choice to get those expenses.
I could sleep in my car instead of paying for a bed at a hotel, I could Skype my oversea contacts instead of flying to see them.
Gas gets used regardless.

Anonymous said...

Robert Faulkner Part 2
In your defense Brandon, I fail to see how that makes any sense… how does one lose their shirt for a mere $2500 per year? Sales will give you initial profit, have a Grand Opening and share your products with some people it’s where your immediate income comes from. Then work on exposures – most of the work is exposures. (aka the recruiting) Joe Cool says that you need a demand for your products for you to own a business, and there is; I better not run out of toilet paper at 3am when I get the… you get the idea. But that only comes after the individual is trained well enough to stop buying from online retailers and their local grocery store. I maintain that your 2 biggest battles in the Amway Business have nothing to do with Amway Tools or your Diamonds income stream from those tools (because there is, it’s not a dirty little secret anymore, its common knowledge)… 1- Connecting with people so they will sit down to see the Plan (90% of your work is done here) 2- Teaching them to buy from Amway instead of online retailers or the local grocery stores. (5% of your work is done here) the final 5% is The System, but if your utilizing that then it doesn’t need to be worried about.

I personally am a 4000 PV circle, and my paycheck varies from $1700 to $1900 monthly. The average is about 1740 give or take… I have only 2 Legs that are growing and I have roughly 40 customers (most don’t buy stuff every month). So in Amway I made just over 20K last year, minus the $2500 I paid to fund my Uplines massive income (oh and this is why they continue to work in my depth to help build the legs down) imagine what incentive they would have to help me if they made nothing on those tools? (I make up what? 0.0045 % of their 6% bonus check off my upline platinum’s group)
Sorry Brandon, I got side tracked. Then I will add in $5000(not accurate but I do want a figure that works for the anti mlm’ers reading this) for the crazy expenses not included in the above tools, like gas, hotels, airline tickets, ect. – alright now let’s do some math!

Okay 20K – 2500 + 5000 = 20, 880 – 7500 (wow that’s funny as 7500 PV is a new silver) = $12,500

So I made 12,500 on top of my Amway expenses and Imagine Brandon what it would be like if I managed to actually get a new person to qualify as a FAST TRACK earner. I know it’s pathetic, I have been in this business for just over 2 years and I haven’t helped anyone in my Team earn any fast track… man I suck. Joe Cool is most likely laughing at me right now.

Brandon - you own a network, not a store. You will build and develop networks, not sales reps. Yes in the beginning you need sales to line your pockets, but your goal is to develop business networks of people who want to own their own web based enterprises and will shop online as they develop them. If you want as Joe says to create demand for your products then you are in the wrong business. Yes “technically we are sales reps” but the long game isn’t about the sales of Amway products. If you want to create demand look into MLM’s that still promote Sales Party’s or get into the Online Marketers Programs – they create artificial demand and sell the same kinds of products that you get in your System CD’s every week (Guru’s over charge for them) by using scarcity. Then they will develop a new product and repeat (banking tons of money) while selling all downline contact information to boiler rooms who attempt to sell you other overpriced get rich Tools.

Brandon, I respect you and you can do this – if you’re willing to outwork everyone else, there is no such thing as a free lunch… but don’t be a Jerk, Joe Cool is just trying to get you to seriously asses these things because he was at 4000 PV once, his upline obviously wasn’t helping him to achieve a profitable business center and it’s really sad, as I can tell he is a natural leader. Why else would he spend so much of his time trying to educate others? He just doesn’t want you to be taken advantage of and neither do I. Go Diamond!