Thursday, October 22, 2009

Amway - Beware Of Your Upline?

Over the years, I have encountered many IBOs and they often have a common theme. They trust their upline and in some cases, consider them mentors. Now in a business venture, it might be good to have a mentor or someone to guide you, but in the Amway opportunity, most of the upline mentors make money off those who they mentor. That is a major conflict of interest but IBOs simply fail to see it.

When an IBO sees the plan in a big meeting, the speaker will often be built up as a financial guru, and possibly as an expert on how to succeed in Amway. An IBO may headr something about the trail was already blazed by upline and you just need to follow the trail. Don't re-invent the wheel, just copy what upline did. But as I have said many times before, duplication sounds easy and looks good on paper, but in real life, the vast majority of IBOs run into problems that they simply cannot overcome, such as the bad reputation that the Amway name has in the US.

What is troubling however, is that IBOs are taught to trust upline and do as they say (defacto requirement), but they are also taught that failure is their own shortcomings, even when they do exactly what upline told them. It is also troubling that many uplines will tell their faithful followers that they need to purchase more and more tools (voicemail, cds, seminar tickets). In some cases, an upline may advise their downline to sacrifice basic family needs to buy these tools. Some IBOs were advised to skip meals to buy a cd, or skip paying the mortgage to be able to attend the next big function.

I might also add that as a newer IBO or prospect, you may have heard that "everyone starts at zero", or that it's a level playing field. It is not. As a new IBO, you will likely be in the 100 PV bracket. Since Amway pays out about 31% in bonuses, your upline(s) will split up about 28% in bonuses off your efforts while you get a 3%bonus. That doesn't sound very level to me.

So each IBO should look at things objectively and see if your upline is helping you or simply helping himself by giving you advice that ends up in profit for himself with little or nothing for you.

61 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mentors make money off those they mentor... like what's that supposed to mean? I didn't hear of mentors not making money off someone else. I didn't hear of coaches not making money off someone else. Tony Robbins held a seminar in January of this year on personal power and potential to live your own dreams. The ticket prices were between $700 and $1700 when they normally are between $1000 and $3000. So what are you trying to say here? An Amway related seminar at $100 to $150 ticket is more expensive? That not everyone starts at zero? Man, you're seriously having some mental issues. Probably your life is a wreckage overall. Go walk your dog or do some gardening to relax that's what the doctor would say to someone like you.

Joecool said...

Tony Robbins didn't tell people he is great and that you will be successful if you attend his seminar, and that you "need" to be there.

Anonymous said...

Yes, you're right and by the same token, I wasn't told that by attending the seminar ALONE, I'll be successful. The 'ALONE' part is what's critical and you leave it out on purpose to deceive others by implying that they tell you that success is guaranteed by being at this and the next seminar and that you need to be there for that to happen. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. You can attend countless seminars and do nothing so how are you gonna be successful by doing nothing. My friend, attending the seminars is important but just attending them won't make you successful. You've got to be motivated, excited and actually use the seminar info to push forward. I've seen many people using that same argument you make... that the system promises success without you doing anything on your part (the 'without' part is the idea these people get) and then after some time they quit because of no results. Worse still, these people will claim that they were lied to. Same claim that you make. My friend, you have to move on in life and stop looking back at a business that just wasn't for you because of the decisions you made along.

Joecool said...

A big part of the system is to promote other aspects of the system. Thus seminars tell you to buy standing order and never to quit Amway and standing orders tell you to attend seminars and never quit amway.

Anonymous said...

I attended Amway meetings/rallys/seminars. They are nothing but bogus events to excite gullible people like me. Eventually I woke up and quit. But I feel sorry for people who are stuck and are unable to see the light.

Ex Amway Victim.

Gina said...

I have a friend who recently became a real estate agent. She was given a mentor who will be by her side for as long as she needs her....and her payment??? $500 when my friend sells her first property. That is it $500. $250 comes out of her commission and the other $250 is paid by the broker. So far my friend says her mentor is very helpful and always available. I'd question a mentors true objective if they are continuously making money off their mentees.

Anonymous said...

If you think that you're a gullible person then you are. If you think that you're a victim then you are. If you think that Amway is bogus then it probably is. If I think that Amway is awesome then it probably is. It depends on how you see it and on how you see yourself. Henry Ford said that if you think you can or can't then either way you're right.

Joecool said...

It's good to have a positive attitude but that alone will not make you succeed in Amway.

Gina said...

I can think all I want that a piece of poop is a hamburger but that doesn't make it so.

Joecool said...

Or think that a piece of poop is a legitimate business but that doesn't make it so. LOL

Anonymous said...

Amway literature neglects to say that 99% of IBO's will not make money and that most will lose money. And most will quit within the first year. There is less than 1% that make money at Amway. Those odds suck. But if Anonymous has such a positive outlook that he/she will be in that 1%, what are they doing reading a blog about Amway is a scheme. Oooh, trying to convince the readers here that we are all wrong? I have to remain anonymous for a little longer. My name will be known soon enough.

Anonymous said...

Amway literature doesn't neglect to say that most people won't make money. It clearly says that 66% were found to be active and that the average income is $115/month per IBO. It doesn't study each person at an individual level. If I make $500/month, does that mean that I'm in the 34% and among the average? No. Get your perspective right. It sounds to me that the way you talk implies that you fit the 99% who don't make it.

Joecool said...

The $115 a month average income was after Amway disregarded the inactive IBOs. Otherwise the average income would be about $70 a month.

Anonymous said...

So, you add the 34% to the 66% and you come up with $70/month. Wow, holly molly, your math skills mesmerize me!

Joecool said...

You don't need much math skills in Amway because hardly anyone actaully makes any money,

Anonymous said...

I won't argue with you man! You're right, I was wrong... hardly anyone makes money, well actually virtually no one makes money at the bottom so let's lower that from 0.9% to 0.09%. It's a good bid, higher chance of buyers! Sign me up!

Joecool said...

Just add up the bonuses of you and your group, if you have one. Then add up the expenses for tools. Practically all groups operate at a net loss.

Anonymous said...

Hey man, I already said sign me up! Since virtually no one makes money as you said, I don't need math skills to add up numbers. I just do it so sign me up!

Joecool said...

Cool, send me your money and you can get Joecool's standing order. LOL

Anonymous said...

Hahaha, I caught you up Joe with that statement you just made. It shows that you have no clue what Amway is and no clue about the standing order. Sorry man. But I must disappoint you because I already signed up and am ready to rock!

Joecool said...

Hey, if you want to lose money and get others to duplicate you, have at it.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely man, I love to lose money and to make others lose money too!

Joecool said...

Gotta learn to love it since that will be the inevitable result!

Anonymous said...

You got it man! I love this business!

Anonymous said...

10 people. 1 of them has $10,000. The other 9 have nothing. Average = $1000 each. But is that guy with $10,000 actually sharing the wealth with the other 9 or is he keeping his money all to himself?

I'm glad the other anonymous loves to lose money because that will happen in Amway. The literature says the "average" IBO makes x amount of dollars because they average out everyone.

Please tell us what the typical IBO makes, not the average IBO. Don't tell us your hpothetical guess. Tell us where in Amway literature it says what the typical IBO can earns.

There is a big difference between typical and average.

If you don't know, take Joecool's advice.

Joecool said...

In nearly every group, possibly all groups asscoiated with tools, the expense for tools exceeds the income a group makes moving volume. The only winners are Amway and the people who profit from tools. The rest are just willing victims.

Anonymous said...

Man let me say it again, I'm excited to lose money and to make others lose to.. WHOAAAA!
Anonymous by the same token we can look at your job and ask if the president of the corporation shares his monthly $1M with his one hundred employees including you. That would come down to $9900 pmonthly per employee while he keeps $10K monthly for himself. Well, when was the time that you made as much money at your job as the president of the corporation did? He keeps most and gives you something that is enough for you to live average. In this business, you make whatever you want to but based on your work to build a network that moves business volume. The minimum you can do is $0 or just your $115 monthly average for 150 PV if you choose not to build your business network. Simple, really.

Gina said...

Income and profit are two very different things. What IBO's fail to realize is that the average INCOME is $115 but that does not account for any expenses. To make any kind of INCOME with Amway money needs to be spent on products, in the least. Do the math...

Joecool said...

It is laughable that IBOs think that a net loss is success. I won't even mention the cost of the products.

Anonymous said...

Gina read again! $115 monthly income is optional. That kind of income comes in if you're at 150 PV and have no business network. It's a challenge to build a network but not impossible however most people just don't feel it's worth building one because it takes too much effort and time off their Seinfeld tv show at 8 PM!

Joecool said...

Anonymous from Canada showing his lack of knowledge once again. 150 PV would only get you $13 or $14 a month. That's not enough to pay for your website fees, let alone the other tools.

Anonymous said...

Not true but let's pass the lie through the motion so that it becomes truth.

Joecool said...

What's a lie? My last post is true. Do the math.

Anonymous said...

The $14 are the points that translate into that amount. The rest comes as the difference between the retail and the discount price of the products.

Joecool said...

What retail? Amway says less than 4% of their products are sold to non -IBOs and there are 4 IBOs for every one customer.

Anonymous said...

Not my problem, sorry!

Joecool said...

LOL, losing your money is your problem.

You are losing money and getting others to do the same?

Anonymous said...

Absolutely man, I'm excited to lose money and to make others lose too. Actually, the more we lose together as a team the more excited we get. We're living in great times, I'm telling you man, there's no doubt whatsoever about that!

Anonymous said...

Anonymous also failed to answer the question about where in the Amway literature does it say how much money the typical (not average) IBO makes.

In my country, all MLM's conducting business here must disclose in their literature how much a typical distributor earns. Nowhere in the Amway literature is this legality stated. Amway is breaking the law in my country, in more ways than just this one, and is currently being sued. Not the first time Amway has broken the law here. They paid a huge fine the last time in the millions.

Those are facts. Believe any lies you want to from your upline.

Did you not notice the subject of this thread is beware your upline? Your upline is coaching you to be an arrogant prick. Take joecool's advice.

Anonymous said...

I enjoy believing all of my upline's lies. What don't you understand about the typical IBO income? There are no fixed incomes to compare to. This is not a job that pays you an hourly rate. The average IBO is the one who starts and stays at 150 PV. That way you can approximate his income. The average IBO becomes the typical IBO. Many choose to stay there for personal reasons. It takes balls to build a business. By your own account it seems that you don't fit this profile. Those who push forward to build will have unlimited income. The business structure, the PV to BV ratio and so on are factors that complicate the exact income figure. So, how can you determine the typical IBO income? There's no way to. Everyone grows at a different pace. Remember, there's no fixed hourly rate as there's in a job.

Joecool said...

Haha, no hourly rate? After you factor in the expenses for tools, you are paying your upline to be in Amway!

Anonymous said...

Joe, are you always this stupid or do you do that on purpose just to annoy me?

Joecool said...

150 PV = 450 BV (approximate). That's about $13.50 bonus.

Products cost about $500 for 150 PV. You also have website fees, voicemail, functions.

IBOs are losing their shirts.

This is no joke. This is why I blog, to prevent people from being scammed.

Anonymous said...

My upline says to buy PV not dollars, that means get more PV for less dollars. Look for products with higher PV to spend as little as possible. You can of course go for low PV products and spend a lot. That means, use your brain. Plus in that 15o PV, there will be PV coming from relational commerce as well. In relational commerce, it's not you but your clients who pay for their products. The retail price minus the discount price translates in profit you keep on top tof the $13.50 for the 150 PV. Is that more clear now?

Joecool said...

And as I said, Amway products are so expensive that not many get sold. Thus there is not much profit from retail of product. As a whole, a group of IBOs probably get soaked when you factor in the expenses of the system such as functions.

Anonymous said...

Bottom line most IBO's are suckers who lose money. If you're wondering if your one of them, yes you are.

Anonymous said...

Well, it seems that's your opinion and nothing can change that so I won't argue with you over it because it gets us nowhere. Yes, I lose money and I love it.

Joecool said...

It's not an opinion. It's a fact. Most IBOs lose money if they are on the system.

Gina said...

"My upline says to buy PV not dollars, that means get more PV for less dollars. Look for products with higher PV to spend as little as possible."

If you were actually running a business and not a self consumption "business", your upline would be telling you how to market your products in the most efficiant manner so that you can sell more retail, thus making money....but alas....that isn't the point is it? Its all about generating a false "income" by buying products from your own store.

Anonymous said...

If it were false income, there would be no income at all.

Gina said...

Gina read again! $115 monthly income is optional. That kind of income comes in if you're at 150 PV and have no business network. It's a challenge to build a network but not impossible however most people just don't feel it's worth building one because it takes too much effort and time off their Seinfeld tv show at 8 PM!'

No I believe you need to read again. What you have written here is irrelevant to the fact that income does not mean profit. Optional or not, the average income is $115 a month. Income is any money that comes into a business in any manner...that income needs to be made into profit (that's where running a business comes in) and in order to do that the income would need to cover the expenses...and despite what you IBO's think there are in fact expenses...that 150pv costs something. If that income does not cover expenses then that income becomes a loss.

This is how real businesses function...look it up.

Anonymous said...

GIIIINAAAAAA...

THE AVERAGE $115/MONTH INCOME IS FOR THOSE WHO KEEP AT 150PV AND DECIDE TO NOT BUILD FURTHER THAN THAT! AT 11700PV YOU AVERAGE $60K PER YEAR! IF YOU WANT TO GO FOR THE 60K GET 11700PV DONE! IT TAKES WORK AND EFFORT BUT FOR MOST IT'S MORE COZY TO STAY AT 150PV HENCE THE $115/MONTH!

Joecool said...

$115 is not really the average. That was after disregarding inactive IBOs. Just look at the 6-4-2 plan, the majority at the bottom make less than $12 a month.

Gina said...

"GIIIINAAAAAA...

THE AVERAGE $115/MONTH INCOME IS FOR THOSE WHO KEEP AT 150PV AND DECIDE TO NOT BUILD FURTHER THAN THAT! AT 11700PV YOU AVERAGE $60K PER YEAR! IF YOU WANT TO GO FOR THE 60K GET 11700PV DONE! IT TAKES WORK AND EFFORT BUT FOR MOST IT'S MORE COZY TO STAY AT 150PV HENCE THE $115/MONTH!"

IT IS STILL IRRELAVANT!!! Use your comprehension....I don't care if we are talking $115 a month, or $60k a month...IT IS STILL JUST INCOME AND ICOME DOES NOT MEAN PROFIT...and you keep conveniently ignore that very important fact. I don't care if you are talking about doing a lot of work or a little...one would still need to look at the income vs expenses to see when that income equates to a profit....profit....that magical thing that you are hoping to get a ton of in order to live your dreams.

So back to the original point...you IBO's talk about what the income is, cozy or not....but never address the expenses....if your expenses are more than that income than it isn't much of a business now is it?

Anonymous said...

If they want to stay at the bottom, I agree with you.

awesome said...

I wish I had read this post years ago.Unfortunately in life, you take the exams first and then learn your lessons. Amway was a very expensive lesson.

In this business, your so called uplines, build it not for the money, but for fake recognition, being part of their upline's inner circle etc etc- but not for money. U will hear from big pins often that they dont build it for money

With the constant programming of the system, that u need to trust upline, plugged into ur upline's goals, do exactly what they say and all that crap, we kept stocking products for our uplines to reach bigger pins through out their entire qualification period (you think u started the business to reach ur goals in life, just wait till ur uplines gain enough influence in your life and u will know the truth.)

All savings were depleted, credit cards maxed out, retirement money taken out, uplines even loaned us money so that we can stock up products during their qualification time- of course we had to repay them again- Sometimes it gives me such a creepy feeling to think how could we let these so called uplines gain soooooo much influence in our life? And to top it all u get to hear abt how people in Amway are full of honesty and integrity.

At first when u are new, these uplines will drive miles for u, fly for u and u will be filled with awe that even ur closest relatives will not do all this for u- u have that feeling of indebtedness towards them. This ur upline will make full use to their advantage and milk PV out of u during their qualification.

U wll be debt and ur uplines by milking
PV out of you, if they had reached Emerald even without proper structure, will be atleast making money from the system. Read Jeff Probst's webpage for more info abt system income for Platinums and above/Emerald and Diamonds
http://www.amquix.info/probst/whoiam.htm

Bottom line: BEWARE UR SO CALLED UPLINE.

Anonymous said...

Joe, u say that $115 isn't really da average but Gina who's on da same page as u r says that it is cuz Amway says so. So neither 1 of u 2 knows 4 sure. U 2 r just a bunch of funny retards.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, you should learn proper spelling and grammar. Something that many IBOs seem to be lacking.

Allen Doll said...

Also, Tony Robbins doesn't run an international pyramid scheme or sell fake dreams through con-artists while wreaking social and economic havoc. Tony Robins is not associated with endless chains of deception in "opportunity" recruitment and doesn't leave a trail destruction and consumer debt in his wake. So there are those distinctions between Tony Robins and the Amway scam.

Allen Doll said...

Perception is important, I agree. You should include your perception of math. When the basic math is done, it shows that 99.9% of Amway participants must lose everything they invest. If you think Amway is a scam, it is. If you think your odds of earning income with Amway are better than 0.1%, you're incorrect. The math of pyramid schemes determines their nature.
see www.mlm-thetruth.com to read expert research.

Peevee Beevee said...

Amway was hijacked by Yaeger and his yahoos back in the 70's. It is still the same. Uplines pretend to be friends as long as you buy in to the books, the cd's, the seminars the rallies and the Yaeger worship. As soon as you leave the "biz" they will have nothing to do with you. The "system" has destroyed countless marriages. My upline diamonds made diamond in 1983. They are still in the "biz" as diamonds and even though they "retired" from the rat race back then they are back to work with "real" jobs again. Hmmm. These two have always had their worshipful noses up the Yaegers rear cheeks, and they are no better now than they were 37 years ago when they bamboozled me and my wife.