Monday, June 29, 2009

Amway or College?

Many IBOs justify their involvement in the system of cds, tapes, books and seminars by comparing it to college. They claim they need this education and that it is much cheaper when compared to a college or university. Of course this is the upline propaganda that IBOs are fed, much like the concept that a job is a bad idea.

In college, it is true that not everyone graduates, but approximately half of those who start college end up graduation. Those who do not graduate still benefit from their education on a year to year ot course by course basis. When you are job seeking, a college degree will give you more options than those who don't educate. This claim cannot be made by Amway IBOs. The education an IBO receives by seminars and cds do not even equate to success in Amway, much less in other venues in life. Only a small fraction of IBOs ever reach platinum, which supposedly is the break even point. So as an IBO, you have less than one half of a one percent chance to break even as compared to approximately a 50% chance of graduating college.

Also, once you graduate and receive your degree/diploma, it is complete. In Amway, there are many many many examples of people who reached levels as high as diamond or above who could not maintain the level. There are also many examlpes of diamonds who quit Amway. If there were such a thing as "residual" income, why would anyone quit when they could sit back and watch the cash roll in. I think the answer is quite obvious.

There is also no evidence (as far as I know) that your Amway related education of cds and seminars actually work. The tiny fraction of 1% of successful IBOs is not a good case for arguing the success of the system. Colleges on the other hand, had accreditation standards, which is nothing like the ineffective Amway accreditation of groups such as BWW, WWDB or Network 21.

The fact that IBOs even dare to compare a college education to their teaching in Amway is a joke. Try telling a prospective employer about your Amway education and see what that gets you. LOL

87 comments:

mrmaximum said...

These comparison's to college are laughable. They seem realistc but in comparing what 'could' be done in Amquix. It's all well and good that if you do reach diamond, then yes, you would be a fool to go to college, but what are the chances that you will make it to Diamond? Imagine the freedom, that is the tagling for the lottery where I live in Canada. I always laugh when I see it because the bottom line is only a small amount will ever recieve the freedom outlined in that commercial.
When I read about IBO's who try to compare College to Amway, it's funny how they have to nitpick at all the technicalities which exist. Will you get the job in which you studied? What are your chances of success? How many actually graduate? Does having a college education guarantee a job?

The one thing which always pops into my mind is, how many IBO's actually aren't affected negatively by Amway? Why is there such a huge overwhelmin amount of negative experiences in dealing with this opportunity? Why are the ones who are successful so few in number?

Maybe being a diamond will trump Joe Average and his earning potential, but if you compare Joe Average with the average 'working' IBO, there is no comparison whatsoever. Joe average can live his life in relative peace and comfort while the IBO is falling into debt, placing a strain on his marriage and his family and more often than not, usually not getting any farther in the business.

Let's be fair here, if we are going to compare what is possible in Amway, how about we compare it to what is possible in life, NOT what is likely in life. If we compare what is likey in both life and Amway, Amway loses, hands down.

Gina said...

College is proven....Amway is not.

Anonymous said...

http://www.forbes.com/2003/07/28/cx_dd_0728mondaymatch.html

This is a link to an article at Forbes.com about how much more money people make who go to college vs. people who didn't go to college. The average college grad earned $52k in 1997 - 1999 vs. people with only a high school education who made $30k in the same time period. Also the unemployment rate is 2% for college grads and it's 4% for high school diplomas. Just an FYI.

Joecool said...

Amway IBOs averge $1,380 a year or $115 a month.

Anonymous said...

www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/ZPFO.html

John Simplot, 99, simple man, high school drop out, worth $ 2.6 billion, self made.

Joecool, university educated, worth the leftovers, right Joe?

It's how you think that counts, not school degrees & diplomas that give you a title. They give you nothing. You give yourself all.

mrmaximum said...

Joe said
"Amway IBOs averge $1,380 a year or $115 a month."

There it is in black and white. Point, match. Huge difference in what is possible and what is likely. If amway worked, there would be nowhere near as much negative from former IBO/Distributers and I can personlaly say that I would NEVER have quit, period!!

Anonymous said...

I worked a part time job three days a month (24 hours total per month) that earned me more money than that. $8/hr x 24 hr = $192/month.

Levi said...

you are taking an average of 3 million IBO's.
how about you define your stat there and say whats the average diamonds make? Emeralds? Ruby's? and Platinums? Also $115 is the average Monthly Bonus check which I dont even make that much cause I make mine from sales. but then again I put all my profits back in to products.

Anonymous said...

College is "Proven"? What planet are you from school girl? University of Phoenix online has taught you well I see.

Joecool said...

Levi, when Amway calculated their average income, they subtracted the IBOs who "did nothing". Basically, Amway removed one third of the IBO when they figured the average.

Anonymous, yes, college is proven. It is a fact that college grads earn more money on average than non college grads.

Anonymous said...

Let me start with a story...A doctor who has a booming practice(college grad) is living a life of luxury and making enough money to send his kids to private education because he knows how important it is. He is so busy he never gets to see his kids or wife. Even though he looks good and he smells good he is just personally unhappy. You ask "How in the world can he be unhappy?". See what he did is he decided what he wanted to Do. So then he went to school to LEARN how to do it and then what he learned has DEFINED his lifestyle and how he lives. Now he is unhappy. The doctor one day had a 19 year old patient ask to speak with him in his office, the doctor accepted. So as the doctor sat down the 19 year old began to show him the Amway business plan...this highly educated doctor laughed and told the young boy he was crazy.

"How can you, at age 19, come in my office and try to tell me what to do with the rest of my life?"

"How old were you when you decided to become a doctor?" (boy)

"I was a senior in high school, maybe 18!?" The doc was a little confused by his question.

"So what is the difference? When you were 18, unknowing of what the real world was like, you made a decision of what you were going to do with the rest of your life. You let an 18 year old tell you what to do right now?"

That doctor was me, and the boy was right. For me Amway wasn't about money it was about time and choices, I could live how I wanted. So I registered after getting over my "Status" and becoming teachable. All Amway is showing people is you don't have to follow the mainstream thought of Do-Learn-Define and you can actually Define what type of lifestyle you want, Learn from people who have it and then go out and Do it. Now after 8 years of college (325K in debt), 6 years of practice(500K in business debt) and two year of everyone laughing at me and my family I am retired from medicine, debt free and spend my time with my family. I will never regret college but I do regret thinking college education was the only way to make it in this world. It was sad that I had such a low self image that I thought I couldn't make it without it...it is a frame on the wall. Come on guys...

Anonymous said...

You contradicted your own arguments again Joe. College Grads, not College make more on average.

"Ibos are not Amway" College Grads are not College. It's the grads that take the same ambition and work ethic and and become successful. College has not proven that it can make you anymore successful than an "Average" IBO.

Once again you're contradicting yourself by saying "earn more on average". A Q12 Platinum makes more than the majority of college grads. At 60-70,000 a year. An Emerald makes more than 98% of all Americans according to the IRS which states that less than 2% of Americans make 100K.

I think you're running out of "Parrot Phrases"! See if Eric Schiebler has come up with some new stuff to copy and paste.

Anonymous said...

College grads look like they make more because they don't have business deductions like all the loser college drop outs that you will end up working for...

Joecool said...

College graduates make more than non college graduates. About half of people who start college graduate. That is in contrast to the small fraction of 1% of people who make any money in Amway.

According to Amway, the average emerald makes $72,000. After paying taxes and medical insurance, etc., a person with a $50,000 job is better off.

Joecool said...

Anonymous doctor who is now supposedly free, why does your IP address come from a corporate source? Meanning it is likely you are posting your comments from your job?

Anonymous said...

Joecool,
It is funny you try to influence your readers...I am sure you know that when a computer is a part of a network and always connected to the internet the IP adress has to be static, I think that is what it is called...when I worked my computer was hooked up to a network that was shared by a couple companies in the same building my practice was in. I retired but still own the property as well as network rights. I am sure you can track approx. where the building is located as well. I would love to meet you out front and show you my old work...if you can get out of your job for a little bit...

MichMan said...

Joe, I have personally known a few Diamonds.

A few of their children got into the business. None of them went on to Diamond.

But nearly all of their children children went to college.

People can make whatever conclusions they want from that observation.

All I can say is this- From stage they may say college is not important. But in reality, they all wanted their own children to go there.

Hmmmm.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, I am not trying to "out" you, I just thought it was quite a cooincidence. So is your building ownership and financial stability due to Amway or other sources?

And did the majority of your downline share that same success or was your success a result of your downline's jobs?

Joecool said...

Michman, it is clearly an issue of do as I say, not as I do.

mrmaximum said...

Joe said
"And did the majority of your downline share that same success or was your success a result of your downline's jobs?"

And where precisely is the argument IBO's? What do you have to come back with other than "College is proven" and yet more rhetoric about how successful you are at diamond. LESS THAN 1% MAKE THAT LEVEL IN AMWAY, it really doesn't matter if becoming a Diamond makes you one of the Masters of the Universe, you have little chance to get there.

Then you have The stats that another Anon posted from FORBES, About college grads. You IBO's have now choice but to look for technicalities about college vs college grads because you know damn well that the system has no such success rate. For however many diamonds you can show me, us critics can show you thousands of IBO's who aren't successful (and may never will be) and then hundreds more whose lives have been forever changed by this "amazing business".

The stats are NOT on your side IBO's Amway is a losing proposition, PERIOD!

Anonymous said...

Joecool,

I am impressed with your honest posting you allow both sides to speak freely. I think the real issue is it is not "sides". You can like or dislike Amway, it is your opinion. The company has been around for 50 years and has proven its success. I was just in Vegas with 4,500 Diamonds from all over the world. With conventional advertisement failing (DVR you can fast forward, less and less consumer response) have you noticed that networks are allowing companies to literally turn up the volume on commercials? MLM is doing so great because nothing else is doing well in advertisement. On line networking groups are exploding because of this too. The plan works I have seen it happen to others and myself. I needed the CD's and books and seminars, you may not, but good luck registering someone like me who needs the tapes (yes I started when there was tapes) if you don't listen to them.

Sorry Joe I got off topic...my success is not singled out to just me. In the process of going Diamond three of my "legs" went Emerald and 1 was Sapphire and 2 were 25% legs. Because of this I actually will qualify as an EDC. When I started my own practice I bought my building as a part of my start up, I leased the other portions to two other companies. I was seeing as many patients as I could and was "so amazing" to everyone. No matter what I did I couldn't stay caught up, yes I was living above my means but I didn't know that. I started working part time at an Urgent care trying to work more hours for more money. Then I started the business and built it for two years until I got to the Emerald level(if you count my first 5 months of playing with the business then it took me 2.5 years to Emerald) I was making more than I thought was possible. I was asked to speak because "I did it so quickly" but I didn't want to do CD's and speaking events I have never been out going and it was hard enough talking to my own group. It took me 4 more years to go Diamond. In that time I was closing out my practice and all of a sudden my building wasn't being leased out anymore, my property manager called me and said that no one wanted to renew their lease. If it wasn't for my business I would be homeless and who knows what else. I had enough money to float it for about 4 months and then a financial company started leasing the building. It took 2 years of non-stop 40 hours a week, not sleeping, being laughed at and feeling like an idiot. I stuck with it and I am glad I did.

If it takes about 100 people in your "downline" to go 7500/25% it makes sense that only 1% actually "makes it". The problem is that is only a snap shot, so when I was going 7500 a member of my team was one of the 99 people who didn't "make it" (at that point, snapshot) but then he went on to go Emerald, so how is that a fair way to show success when and industry is growing you cannot use numerical progression as fact.

Anonymous said...

mrmaximum you are right. People who go to college and are committed to it do very well in some cases. The "system" doesn't have a high success rate because the large majority of IBO's don't do anything! A lot of them don't even order, they just think they signed up with a lucky IBO number.

"The stats are NOT on your side IBO's Amway is a losing proposition, PERIOD!"

Please elaborate on that statement, and don't come back with "but college grads..." I want to know what your insight is to the corporation...serving on the board (hint) I have come to see things for different perspectives...see the end of my other post about your 1% all caps argument...

Joecool said...

Anonymous, I do allow comments both for and against the articles I write. At times I have had to correct myself. However, this is not a practice that is done by any diamonds or higher ups, or Amway propagandists. It's as if they have something to hide?

mrmaximum said...

I applaud you on your time on the board Anonymous, but other that the stats Joe has stated, I only have my personal experience, so that may not hold much water with you. I have personally not seen anything which changes my opinion that the 2-5 year plan really means 10 - never in the grand scheme of things.

dismiss me a disgruntled IBO if you will, but then I simply join the deludes of 'negative' IBO's that are out there and online. You want me to qualify my statement, sure, where is the sucess that is promised in the plan? It's suppsed to be not easy, but simple. Show the plan enough times and people would get it. Heck I was even told that if you show 10, you should sponsor 2. If I had a sponsering ratio like that I would be just like you and blasting Joe for his ignorance. Only three people on the team I was on had a ratio that high, my upline diamond (now emerald after three of his platinum legs quit) and another emerald that someone in his downline sponsored that had the Charisma of of a God, and then somone in HIS downline.

Every business has it's detractors, but I have never seen anything as negative as the Amway business. The most negative people that i have ever come across are the ones that did show the plan, not the ones that did nothing and sat on their hands for three years. Why is that?

You asked me to qualify my statement, but as an IBO I highly doubt it will be good enough for you. So you tell me this, why is Amway better than College? What informaiton which you have learned on the board can show that it is indeed better? The plan states that you should be better off even at platinim. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, at 2500, all your expenses should indeed be paid for in the business.

The team I was on actually endorsed retail sales to bolster up you business and create side volume, but that still didn't halt the exodus of three platimum legs and their groups from my upline diamonds team. The basis of my arguement is that Amway should be better than having a job even at the 4000 level, this is stated in the plan.

Is that true? From all the negative I read on the net and from people I had talked to when I was in the business, and the sheer duration one must endure to even get to platinum, it doesn't seem like a smart idea. Even when business minded people analyze Amway, they aren't impressed. So tell me, what do all these people not know that you do?

Check the fruit on the tree, the fruit doesn't look so hot to be honest.

Anonymous said...

Joecool,

You will see more and more Diamonds responding to posts on line...I have nothing to hide so anything you want to know I can tell you...why do you hate Amway so much mrmaximum? Or do you just really love college? Why can't it be College and Amway?

Anonymous said...

Amway gaurds its individual's results, just like its products from being officially compared with those from the outside world. It is like those so-called Christian Miracle services gaurding against scientific scrutiny of their miracles. It all about perception and a bunch of die hard fans. So it is hard to say what works and is it better to be in it or be away from it. One thing I know for sure, it destroys friendships and relationship. I feel sorry for my good friends who were open minded and hearty before joining Amway. Now it is all about what they can sell us.

Anonymous said...

4500 Diamonds???? Care to back this up?

BTW - EDC is 9 personally sponsored DD legs. If people are going to lie - please at least try to learn the biz....

Amway's football team sucks, too!

Joecool said...

Anonymous, I welcome all comments, as long as they are not profanity laden tirades. But your claim that only 1 out of a hundred retired people live the same lifestyle after they retire is false. I know many people who are retired, and they live better than when they were working. They have time to golf, travel, and enjoy their retirement years.

Gina said...

Nothing to hide...OK....make wih the P/L. Prove how great this biz is on ce and for all. Silence the critic claims that IBO's are anything but business owners, who just pay money to those above them and lie about their success...

Proof....its a funny little thing

Joecool said...

Dead or broke by age 65 myth busted here:

http://thefactsabouttheamwayopportunity.blogspot.com/2009/06/amway-global-myth-busted-dead-or-broke.html

mrmaximum said...

“..why do you hate Amway so much mrmaximum? Or do you just really love college? Why can't it be College and Amway?”

Do I hate Amway? Not really, I just hate what is said about it, meaning one prospects about their future, which is simply based on what is possible, and not what is likely. What is the deal and the issue with providing proof of income? Why is that such an evil thing? Why does the request for one automatically make the asker a loser and an idiot when this is a normal business practice? Sometimes I have to wonder at how IBO’s try to sway critics, talk of structure, sponsoring, and the like as if that will sway them. They aren’t prospects or IBO’s, They have either done their homework or are former IBO’s so hard facts and not simple charisma will convince them. Why the issue with providing a P/L? If the business is so effective, or if your application of the system is successful, where is the problem? I’m simply against people falsifying or embellishing information to achieve their own ends.

Some are greedy yes, but some see a better life for their families, the chance to finally be able to get all the ever wanted to their children and instead they are given anything but that. I realize that I got off easy, my system expenses wheren't as expensive as IBO's who lived in the States. And I do get a little hot under the collar when I hear about some people's experiences where they have lost marriages or the chance to have children or worse because of this business.

Yes marriage stats are shaky to begin with, but does college have a track record like this? If the buisness was as good as the plan states, why aren't people fighting to get into it then? Why don't IBO's simply walk into a Target or a Walmart or even a Zellers and simply state they are in Amway and people come running?

If all one had to do was show the plan, then wouldn't it be more like McDonalds? I'm sure not 100% of franchises make money, but the system is proven to the point that people are more than willing to sign up so the Corp. can pick and choose who they want. No curiosity approach, no embellishment, simple facts.

Even if one team had good success, that one team could still act such as that. How many teams do? There is still that fact, 1%, that is a 99% failure rate. As an example, how stressed would a person be if they knew that even scoring a 98 on a test meant a fail?

Take it how you want it.

Levi said...

Gina, you first. post your p/L report so we can determine whether you are a fraud or not. Also show my your savings account is able to actually save a decent amount each month if you are able to at all.

Gina said...

Oh poor little Levi....
I have posted my P/L...more than once in response to other IBO's like yourself with the same sophmoric retort when I ask for the P/L. So when exactly do the IBO's put up? I have more than once yet in more than 2 years I am still waiting for the IBO who said..."you first" to actually follow through.
And I am not showing anyone my savings account...I have never asked anyone for their banking info...EVER. That must be your felon side coming out again.

PS...I live comfortably...I have no debt other than a mortgage. I drive what I consider to be a nice car as does my husband. I travel...a lot, for both business and pleasure with and without the family and I wouldn't have it any other way. Weekends are dedicated soley to my family...lately we have been doing a lot of camping in the new trailer we bought. Anything else you need to know about how I am able to manage my finances?

Levi said...

That must be your felon side coming out again.

A running balace without Banking Information, no numbers, nor any personal information otherwise. black out the rest just leave the balance. I can do it if you would like to see what I am talking about. there is nothing felon about it. thanks for the insults in your comments it really shows your professional side. you seem to be more like us every day sweetie.

Gina said...

LOL...so you want to know what is in my savings account? LOL....ok here it is...just my savings account as of July 10th, not including the various investments I have and my checking account, nor my various accounts in Europe....
Balance $157,258.49

There you go....I just looked it up online copied and pasted it here.

Now what? Oh, and I am in my 30's before you make some silly assumption that I am about to retire and this amount will do me nothing.

What's in your account?

Gina said...

Oh and I will never be like you...sweetie....I follow the laws of our society and don't need to make information up to justify why I am involved in a crap business. Anything I say can be verified....if only you could say the same....if only.

Levi said...

$157,258.50 how about that I have more than you

Levi said...

Gina if only you were not a fictional character. you see anything you can type can be you. you sound good but dont they say that already (it sounds good but I will have to see for myself)

Levi said...

Afterall what in any of your comments have you said that could really be fact about yourself?

Nothing, thats my point. you sound elaborate and like I said before you are overdoing your profile it sounds more and more unlikely since why would someone of your claimed stature and lifestyle come down here in the gutter to blog on such nonsense? you dont even have to be a woman. (which you probably are not)

Gina said...

"$157,258.50 how about that I have more than you"

Jealosy...you have it, learn to deal with it.

"Gina if only you were not a fictional character. you see anything you can type can be you. you sound good but dont they say that already (it sounds good but I will have to see for myself)"

so this is your new approach? You IBO's seem to follow a checklist of tactics in an effort to discredit the critics. Is the next step to accuse Joecool and myself for being one and the same? Pssst...its been tried before and it still doesn't work.

You can see anytime you would like....again I don't ever ask anyone to take my word for it and I encourage everyone to look up any of the information I post...I have even provided links....all free of charge, of course!!!!

"Afterall what in any of your comments have you said that could really be fact about yourself?

Nothing, thats my point. you sound elaborate and like I said before you are overdoing your profile it sounds more and more unlikely since why would someone of your claimed stature and lifestyle come down here in the gutter to blog on such nonsense? you dont even have to be a woman. (which you probably are not)"

Oh, I am all woman, and if you had any clue about women you would know that just from my posts...but really, I am comfortable with myself so if you prefer to assume that I am a man, have at it...it really does nothing to me. And I sure have not posted any personal information about myself, nor have I made any elaborate claims other than i am a business owner, a wife and a mother in her 30's. I was born and raised in Chicago, lived in Europe for a time and am fluent in Italian. My husband is the GM of a large publically traded company, he is taking his masters, he speaks German, Italian, English, French, Russian, and Spanish and he has lived in just about all of those countries and then some and has traveled to even more, and he is Italian. Don't believe me....ask your ilk like Tex or IBOFB...they have been around enough to know whether or not I have changed any of this information over the years...or don't...I honestly don't care. No one gets specifics for one reason....I do not in any way in any shape or any form trust IBO's and have reason to not trust them. I have been threatned more than once by the upstanding IBO I have experience with and their ilk...to the point where I had to get a home alarm system....its amazing how desperate people get when lawyers get thrown into the mix and large amounts of money and jail time is at stake....but you would understand that more than I. If you choose to believe that I have spent the last 2+ years making this story up then feel free...it is your right. What I am more concerned with is what those who come across these blogs think. That is the one thing you can't understand...I am not concerned with you, in fact you make my posting easier because those who come looking for info see the instability of IBO's in their posts. So please....carry on....really.

Levi said...

wow good sales pitch. Liar.

Anonymous said...

Gina it appears several major companies with major legal teams think otherwise...listen to the VP of Barnes and Noble...no offense but I trust his word over yours...this whole blog is just ignorance in text form. I have more business leaders to validate but you will make up some excuse...I feel bad for you guys...

Brian Buckley
Vice President, Sales, Barnes & Noble.com
http://www.thisbiznow.com/quixtar/barnes_noble.html

Anonymous said...

Someone said EDC is 9 legs at double diamond...this is not true. EDC is 9 legs at 7500pv for 12 months with at least 2500 side volume. Two of my friends are EDC and one is a DD...maybe you should learn the business.

mrmaximum said...

"Gina it appears several major companies with major legal teams think otherwise...listen to the VP of Barnes and Noble...no offense but I trust his word over yours...this whole blog is just ignorance in text form. I have more business leaders to validate but you will make up some excuse...I feel bad for you guys..."

No need to feel bad for us, you are the one who has engaged a business with a 99% failure rate. Pretty slim odds my good man, so you tell me whose ignorant? The people quoting facts, simply talking about the reality of how much negative there is about Amway, or the ones like you who refuse to listen, berate, insult, and defame the people who don't listen.

I love how IBO's have to destroy character in order to bolster up their oft flagging position. Levi asked Gina to post her P/L, she did and it makes a good portion of his upline look shabby to say the least. Now all of a sudden she is a fictional character.

LOL, just to ensure that everything is normal and well in IBOland right? BTW, what colour is the sky in IBOland there anon? We are so ignorant? Gee, dateline agrees with us, there are thousands of ex-IBO's who agree with us, heck, even Amway's own stats (average ibo makes $115) agrees with us.

If enrolling in Amway was akin to enrolling in McDonalds for $200.00, then where is the success? You cannot possibly tell me that Amway is as powerful as Mcdonalds, with the proven system yet have so many people quit. There woule be a heck of a lot more success if this was the case, take it anyway you want to take it.

Once again, who is ignorant? Reality is slapping you IBO's hard in the face, if it doesn't come from us critics, its going to come in other forms.

The business doesn't work....period

Anonymous said...

mrmaximum you seem to be confusing the term ignorance with stupid. I was not insulting you. I was stating that you are uneducated about Amway because you refuse to look at facts. Amway isn't going anywhere because it does work. I don't know if you have seen my previous posts but I am the last person you should tell that the business doesn't work, I don't work because of it. I would never destroy someones character in order to raise my own...that would be a waste of time. At the same time my posts were questioned in the same way as the young lady you are talking about. Average Active IBO makes $115.00 a month...If they are lucky! Active is a joke, they consider you active if you log in to your account a couple times. Yes the FTC and Amway both say the average IBO makes 115 but the FTC and Amway also say the average Platinum makes $56,000.00 per year so if you believe the 115 then believe the 56K as well. Dateline...lol...that is just funny I remembe when that was on TV...then what happened? Amway got shut down and all the IBO's went to jail right? No instead the FTC in a full report on Amway said it was model company and an example to be followed by others. So again I didn't intend to insult you I would only suggest you educate yourself with facts not hear-say from online blogs. If a 20+% increase in business last year is a slap in the face then by all means hit us again! hope these facts help...
1. Amway is a global leader in the $102-billion direct selling industry. More than three million Amway Business Owners operate independent businesses in more than 80 countries and territories around the world.
2. Amway and its subsidiaries employ more than 13,000 people worldwide.
3. Amway and its subsidiaries reported record sales of more than $7.1 billion for the year ending December 31, 2007.
4. Amway operates 65 Research and Development laboratories worldwide, staffed by more than 500 scientists, engineers, and technical professionals.
5. Amway Research and Development professionals have been awarded more than 500 patents and have had more than 400 papers published in top industry journals.
6. Amway is a leader in the U.S. Direct Selling Association, the World Federation of Direct Selling Associations, the National Association of Manufacturers, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
7. Amway was ranked #43 on the Forbes Magazine 2007 list of “America’s Largest Private Companies.”
8. Our eco-friendly home care products help maintain a cleaner environment and a cleaner home.

Our Subsidiaries
9. Amway owns the Amway Grand Plaza Hotel and the JW Marriott Hotel in downtown Grand Rapids, Michigan, as well as Peter Island Resort in the British Virgin Islands.
10. Amway owns the Laura Mercier™ line of cosmetics, which is sold in fine boutiques and department stores.
11. Amway manufacturing facilities are located in Ada, Michigan, USA; Dongnai Province, Vietnam.
12. Each year, 75 million units of soap, detergents, and cleansers; 150 million units of cosmetics; and 6 billion vitamin and mineral tablets are produced by Amway.
13. Amway operates six distribution centers across North America, totaling more than 1.5 million square feet of warehouse space.

Anonymous said...

mrmaximum I went back and read one of your previous responses to me. I apologize I didn't see it earlier. The business is simple, exposure is the name of the game. The more people you show the better your odds are for making it. To show 10 and get 2 is not very likely but as you have seen it is possible. The reason there is such strong negative is two fold. First off IBO's sometimes feel the need to oversell Amway and say comments like 4000pv is better than having a job. At 4000pv your business is still a baby and has no security and very little profit. The second reason is people register and have thier own business when they have never owned one before. They have no clue what they are doing and try to do it thier way and get no where. Instead of doing the business they think about it a lot but if you look at thier calander they haven't done anything. It would be like a party store that is opened sometimes and doesn't have any solid hours. Your business wouldn't grow because your inconsistant hours would ruin any chance you have. That is the same thing with IBO's they have constants in thier business. i have no problem with college, I believe it is important, my kids have to go! However I do not feel college is the only thing you need to make it in life. To make it to 7500pv is very difficult it is a lot of work but it is worth it. People always ask me that. "What do you know that I don't?" the answer is nothing, I only applied more than others have. I will tell you one thing, if you knew what I knew you would do what I have done. The fruit on the tree comment is confusing to me...what fruit are you looking at...A EDC friend of mine says that all the time, who was your Diamond?

mrmaximum said...

Which is all well and good and thank you for sharing that, however, the issue that I have with Amway is that after all the things in which you stated, why are there so many failures? I'm glad that you don't work because of Amway, and I have seen a few people leave their jobs from it aswell in my time in the business, however, after everything is said and done, one percent become platinums and less than 1% become diamonds. SOME of these people got free...most didn't, but there where quite a few who did indeed do the work? Why is there such a discrepancy?

My stance is that if it only works for the chosen few, it doesn't work. Sure, maybe there are a few people who are lazy, I'll grant you that, I'll even say the vast majority, but I can't believe the sheer amount of negative I see online, and some stories from people who did work it, go platinum, one story I remember is of a couple who went Sapphire and virtually no money to show for it. All these stories are also eerily similar, I also as you why is that? Most talk about the same issues, the money wasn't there when it was suppsed to be, in fact, some even talk about their structure being proper and still don't have the money they are supposed to. Why is that anon?

That's my issue, are there success stories, yes, yours being one of them and good for you on that, but they are few and far between. So few and far that it begs to wonder how effective this "opportunity" actually is. THAT many people can't be stupid and lazy, I mean, c'mon!! You've said over and over again how great Amway is, the issue is also the AMO's who give the business a bad name. Can the FTC wrangle them up and put them on trial? Amway itself is a great business, good customer service and all of that, this reflects little to noting on what the AMO's make their prospective IBO's do. And also, Sun Myung Moon was a billionaire as well, so telling my that Amway has acquired all these trappings of business success isn't a reflection on how they obtained this success.

I'm glad that you've become free from your job, as for it always being around because it works, I beg to differ. That was my point about McDonalds and I'm also sorry, I'm not an IBO who will simply believe that Television is incorrect because you say that it may be. I just take into account the huge amount of negative that I come across, whether in print, online, and on the news.

Sorry Anon, THAT much negative and little to no positive to counter it, don't tell me that there isn't something rotten in Denmark. Every business has it's detractors, every one of them, but they also have many people who are shouting their praises as well.

Where are they for the Amway business? Why is the negative so pervasive? I have heard that Chrysler has crappy products but for every 3 people who tells me that, I will hear at least one person who defends the Chrysler and defend it somewhat well.

Why is it for every one positive IBO, there are at least 100 negative ones? Where is the positive, where are all the ones who are doing it? Well, where are they? I've stated that this business is supposed to be like McDonalds, as proven and effective.

Where....are....the....results?

If these Diamonds and above are as successful as they are and do not engage in negative behavior like some of the other AMO's, I would think that they would be happy to share their success to differentiate themselves from the crowd. If they where successful and legit, well, how could we ignore them? Everyone knows that Mcdonalds is a proven business system, why is there such an arguement against Amway if the success was there to back it up?

Where are the results?

Now tell me that the business works.

Anonymous said...

mrmaximum
"My stance is that if it only works for the chosen few, it doesn't work."
I am sure that is not your true stance because then every business or investment would be out the window. The reason most fail is because they just plain don't know how to run a business. You can tell because a lot of them say "I signed up in this thing", they don't look at it like a business. The reason there is such a big difference in who makes it and who doesn't is Amway set it up that way on purpose. This business seperates those who work from those who don't very clearly. I believe they did that because they wanted to discourage people from thinking it is a sign up and then in a few years you are rich!

the reason failure stories are probably similar b is because someone reads something on line and then on another blog they say what they read and as if it was thier experience. I don't know? Structure is important but the thing is if you have the right structure the money is there, it has never not been what I was told. It is numbers, if you do it you will get the money, no question. Like most things we don't usually know what "really" is going on in someones business or life. I would just say to consider the source where your information came from.

Amway has taken legal action...the former orginization called TEAM was terminated from Amway because they were doing things wrong and promising things that were wrong. I am glad they did what they did.

McD's is a great company, but we don't all qualify to own one because it is so expensive. Amway is inexpensive (if you do it right). The reasons Diamonds don't tell thier tales of success is because we are not allowed to, plain and simple. We are not allowed to disclose our earings in any way all we can say is what the FTC has said is allowed. So I can only tell prospects that my average income is 746K a year, I can't talk about bonuses I have recieved or my lifestyle on a broad public spectrum. The reason behind that is they want people to not be wowed by it. also me personally I don't like people knowing everything about my income, it would be disrespectful to ask any other person how much they make...

McDonalds is proven by the fact that it continues to grow, show profit each year (except the last couple quarters), and is still around. Not becasue franchise owners go out into the media and show off all of thier wealth. So Amway is successful, grows, shows a good profit and is around after 50 yaers so why do its franchise owners have to run around and show off? See my point?

FYI: McD's also just recently showed a big quarterly loss, amway showed a 20% increase...hmm...

Joecool said...

The FTC doesn't say what Amway diamonds can or can't say. The do require soe numbers be posted such as the average income. I recall quite vividly that diamonds used to talk about making $50,000 a month, but did not specify if that was gross or net, and no mention of tools income. In fact when I was an IBO, upline denied making any money from tools.

Amway showed a 20% increase in sales? Was that in the US or worldwide? And how exactly does that help individual IBOs? As I keep saying, it's great for Amway. An individual IBO is not Amway.

Anonymous said...

The FTC does regulate what we are allowed to say in regards to income. We can only disclose FTC allowed numbers. There is money in tools and there should be all other franchises charge for education and they make profit from it too. Your upline may not have been making tool money at that point.

Yes 20% worldwide. Amway only sells products through IBO's so if sales are up then so are the IBO's who contributed to that increase.

Joecool said...

Really, the FTC regulates what Amway diamonds say? I'm surprised that Amway hasn't been fined since 1986 for outrageous income claims.

What franchise charges? Amway is not a franchisor. IBOs are not franchisees.

My upline probably made TONS of money from tools. Our group was taught to buy 5-7 tapes a week in addition to standing order. Our upline told people to skip paying their rent and mortgages so they could attend functions. Our group was told to have their families skip a meal so they could buy more tapes. Our group was told that is someone in your downline quit, you cannot cancel that standing order. My upline was WWDB and I would bet everything I have that they made handsoe profits from tools. They sure weren't buying mansions and aircraft exclusively with Amway income.

Anonymous said...

wow Joecool your upline was bad...I would never say any of that. The tool income isn't that much! It is nice but I made more at my practice than that. I don't mandate any type of tool requirements. YYou would be suprised at the amount of money you get from the corporation, it has always been more than what I was told it would be...

I wasn't saying that IBOs were franchises I was just saying that McDonalds Corporation doesn't run all the McD's. The franchise owners are thier own IB but no one ever says when sitting down to buy a franchise "can I see how your franchise owners live? How much money are they making?" they are only shown what the projected returns are on a normal franchise. We don't have to pay huge franchise fees either.

The bottom line is no one elses success has anything to do with yours in any part of life, Amway or not. It is up to you. Whether someone makes it or doesn't make it...your situation is 100% up to you.

Joecool said...

My upline was very bad. And I believe it still continues today, which is why I am still blogging. I found it ironic that Greg Duncan, my former upline ended up filing for bankruptcy.

Our group was pushed very hard to buy more PV and to buy more tools. In our own team/group, there were several couples who had their homes foreclosed. You see, upline taught them how to skip paying their mortgages so they coudl attend a major function. Some people lost their jobs because our upline told them that they could just get another job because the function was more important. There was even a tape that taught IBOs not to cancel standing orders if they had downline who quit. That is was their responsibility to keep paying.

These uplines were crooks and I believe they are still ripping people off.

mrmaximum said...

Sorry, I didn't quite see your last post to me, so I'm sure there are some points which I missed or may have asked you something which you answered already.

Now, why do Amway business owners have to run around and show off? Really, they shouldn't have to, but I would be eager to do so if there was so much negative about my chosen business. As for your earlier statement about at lower levels in the business, you may not have a great idea about the business, this could be true, maybe a little too low on the totem pole to see what the true potential is.

However, if at 2,500 with proper structure your BSMs should be paid for, well, what about if you are at 4,000? You are correct when you state that most people don't have very good business accumen, and are green as green can be with this business. This is why the upline is there, no? You can go all the way up and find someone who can give the right advice. Even I know that one cannot become a diamond by having zero charisma and people skills.
There are books, tapes and people to teach and train so they can get the knowledge they need if their business is lacking. That is the power of the opportunity. If people aren't getting the teaching they require and failing en masse, that is still a reflection on the AMO's how things aren't working.

When I think of my team that I was a part of, I would say that the teaching wasn't too bad. My upline leader was a former model and encouraged retails sales. On a regular basis, he would encourage the IBO's in his group NOT to act in the ways that typical IBO's did. He seldom called people 'losers' for not enrolling in Amway and forbade people from making fun of the very people we wanted to sponsor.

However, that still didn't halt the exodus of three of his platinums just a few short years ago. He taught retail sales, he was always hammering structure as he wanted to make sure that his team made money and it still wasn't enough. Three platinums left, not three 4,000, not three 1,500. Three platinums. As I had stated to you before, the former IBO's who scream the loudest are usually the ones who worked the hardest for the least amount of return.

Like Joe has stated, Amway has gotten a 20% increase, while McDonalds has reported a 20% loss. Yes, very good points until you qualify this point. China and India is growing very well, while good old North America isn't faring so well.

As for investments and the like not working for everybody. Here is the deal, investments like stocks, and real estate aren't for everyone, while most AMO's state; "If you can't do Amway, you can't do anything!"
As 'progressive' my upline was, this was something he had stated many, many times before. I can easily attest that Joe, Amthrax, and any other former IBO's can say they've had heard the same thing.

If AMO's don't want to get called on it, don't say it if it isn't true. McD's is a great company as you have stated, we know that it's so expensive due to the proven track record that the company can boast. Now they can place stringent rules for anybody to join as they don't need prospects, the prospects need McD's.

Which is why I stated, if this business only works for the chosen few, then it doesn't work. I still stand by this statement, you may be one of the few who has made money, that's my point, one of the few. That isn't stated in the plan now, is it?

That is my point anon, there are too few success stories for this proven business model. Even if we got rid of all the perpetrators who make the AMO's look bad (which amway has not) and the plan was revamped so that it worked, there would be no way to bottle up that success. There would be no way to ignore it either.

People are lazy, yes some are, but not everyone. If amway made money for the masses, then the bad eggs would eventually get shaken out and the good ones would continue. This is not the case, you must know this.

mrmaximum said...

2nd part I ran a little long

My earlier point about negative press was that all businesses have pros and cons. Yet if their buisness model is solid, the positive will either equal or outweigh the negative.
Sure I will consider the source, but when most sources are saying the same thing, that arguement loses value. 1 person saying they lost their shirt is one thing, i million people saying they lost their shirt is a completely different thing.

mrmaximum said...

"The bottom line is no one elses success has anything to do with yours in any part of life, Amway or not. It is up to you. Whether someone makes it or doesn't make it...your situation is 100% up to you."

Now imagine, you have no prior business experience and your upline is telling you crap, what do you do? You listen as you have no idea what is good or bad. You want to succeed for your family and yourself. Are all LOS like this?

No, but the ones who actually are successful and want the best for their upline seem to be...
few and far between.

Hence the issue that I have other critics have with this business. If the business worked as well as you say, why do so many of these LOS take advantage of their groups in this manner?

Anonymous said...

Joecool-sorry about your upline...I am sorry that was your exposure to our business.

mrmaximum you never need downline if you don't want to. You can only sell product if that works best for you. You can just make more money with sponsoring. I want to tie a few things together that you said first off you said that IBOs are failing in masses because of lacking in training and charisma. I agree with you. You also said that people cannot all be lazy, a few but not all...the sad things is 95% of them are. They don't do it on purpose but they work on it one or two nights a week and then take a month off, don't listen to thier cds or read thier books and never really do what it takes to own your own business. If they opened up a brick and mortar business they would do things much differently because they would actually watch thier sales and try to increase profit so that they can pay the rent!

You said that because McD's has a proven track record they can be very strict with thier rules. Do you know why they are strict? Because if they follow the system that McDs has set up then they will succeed and if they don't they fail. That is one of the problems with American Way (thought I would go with the old school name) it cost too little to get involved, so people don't take it seriously like a 1M+ investment with McD's. Amway wont let us mandate training or increase the investment required. So 95% of people are lazy because they don't have to do the training and only spent 200$ or so to register...if everyone who registered treated it like a business and a serious investment they would make profit. The thing is Amway has a proven track record as well, never showing a loss, always growing and has made more millionaires than any other company, even more than McDs. While you are right about Amways growth is a lot internationally, McDs growth is US only so it doesn't matter whether the growth or loss is in another country or in the US it is still the companies grwoth.

Amway has began an Accredidation Program that is going to get rid of all of those people or at least make them change thier ways.

I tell everyone the odds are against you ever making it in this business but if you follow the system then you have a better chance. If you didn't follow Mcds system you wouldn't have a chance at all.

I am not a chosen one...far from it. I just followed the system and told people up front it will be alot of work and most don't make it.

When I was just getting started I saw two Emeralds "quit"...I called the corporation and they are both still qualified emeralds they just went to start thier own system. some times when new leadership rises up the Diamond doesn't like the direction they want to go so they split. I doubt they would actually dissolve thier business because there are bonuses that they will get no matter what.

It is a solid model you can't disagree with that, just because it is really hard doesn't meen it isn't good. Again the reason the critics are so numerous is because 95% of the people registered and never did anything, quit and became "I tried that...it didn't work" when in reality they just didn't work it. Even with a crappy upline you can build a business with materials provided by Amway.

Joecool said...

"Joecool-sorry about your upline...I am sorry that was your exposure to our business"

Well, I sat in a function with 50,000 people in s atsdium, and another 15K to 20,000 in an arena, and these functions went on every 3 month and these were only the ones I attended. Then there were standing orders which reconfirmed what was taught on stage. And I don't believe my group wasn't the only one that taught these things.

So even if a few can succeed, it's still a bad idea.

BTW, my unethical uplines are still in power, one of them filed for bankruptcy recently.

mrmaximum said...

“They don't do it on purpose but they work on it one or two nights a week and then take a month off, don't listen to thier cds or read thier books and never really do what it takes to own your own business.”

This is where I disagree with you. I fully understand that most people are lazy, but once the results roll in with the people who are doing it, should that not motivate the people. This isn’t like sales where you have to work over and over again to continue making money, you can supposedly make it once. If the business delivered the success it promises would there not be more people taking the bull by the horns? We all know that being a salesman is hard, however, most people know that money can be made if you do the work. The “it works if you work it adage.” Some are willing because a lot of money can be made; others are not as the onslaught of what work it takes becomes a deal breaker.
Anon, take it anyway you want to take it, there is a reason most cannot say that about Amway. The 2-5 year marketing plan doesn’t seem to work like it has been outlined. I look back and wonder why I didn’t ask questions when more and more people where taking three – 6 years JUST to go platinum!! If that is the case then the 2-5 year plan is an outright lie, maybe in 5-10 years you can go diamond, but I guess that may not entice people to join.

There is nothing special about Amway that makes people want to save face by lying and blaming the business for their failure. If it’s just as good as any other business, then I would expect to see the people who worked it succeed and the ones who didn’t fail. This is not the case which is obvious.

Avon is also a multi level business which only does cosmetics. Avon makes more money than Amway, why is that? Also, I do hear some negative about Avon from time to time, but nowhere near as much as Amway. You can make money if you work, and I even hear that from people who have been to Avon “parties.” That it wasn’t for them but others may be able to make money. I keep repeating myself but you need to understand, if Amway was as good as you said, people’s attitudes about the business would be different. If people’s track record with the business was like you said, blaming the business when it was in fact their issue, then the ones who worked the system would become successful, proving that it did of course work. This simply doesn’t happen, just like it’s said in the business, “Check the fruit on the tree.” Walmart Canada makes more than Amway, like I have said many times WHERE IS THE SUCCESS?? We don’t have to look to far to see in many other businesses, why is the Amway opportunity allowed to be any different? If it’s so good, why is it so hard?

“Amway wont let us mandate training or increase the investment required. So 95% of people are lazy because they don't have to do the training and only spent 200$ or so to register...if everyone who registered treated it like a business and a serious investment they would make profit.”

That’s interesting, I thought that’s what the AMO’s where for. I can remember the group I was a part of saying that training wasn’t mandatory, but neither was success. At trainings, functions, and other media I received which was all in the name of IBO enducation, I did get some good information regarding attitude and heard lots of good rally stories, but as for hard training such as tracking expenses, treating it like a real business and the like, that never came down the pipe, sorry. Another point I have made, this isn’t a reflection on the enrollees, but the AMO’s who are supposed to teach and train and do a poor job of doing so. The negative stories which I allude to are people who just like Joe are told to go to these functions in order to receive the training to proceed, and are told the same thing over and over which usually doesn’t assist them in their business. I highly doubt McD’s is like that, yeah?

mrmaximum said...

“It is a solid model you can't disagree with that, just because it is really hard doesn't mean it isn't good. Again the reason the critics are so numerous is because 95% of the people registered and never did anything, quit and became "I tried that...it didn't work" when in reality they just didn't work it. Even with a crappy upline you can build a business with materials provided by Amway.”

I have seen nothing so far which proves to me that it works and I know that I'm not the only one. I tried to see the pattern, to see where the ones who made it from the ones who didn’t. To see what they had done besides show the plan, read books, listen to tapes and attend all functions. After removing the ones who didn’t do those things, I still came across those who did the work and got nothing as oppsed to some others who got results. I understand that everyone is different and everyone will grow at their own rate, but I still saw far too many inconsistencies for me over time so I finally decided to call it quits. I didn’t want to be the person who has been in for 14 years still telling prospects that he’s “just getting started”

After a while I noticed that even after years some will show the plan and be no further ahead. Joe worked it and bounced when it didn’t get him the results that he was promised, I did the same, in fact my former upline lost three like I said and he started a page on facebook outlining how glad he was to quit. These are the points I mean, okay so Joe lazy quits the business and is negative, but platinum’s making a good amount of money? About 30% of the negative stories (which sound familiar in the sense that they all say the same thing; they aren’t making the money that they should be) are people who started a group, people who did work it. I knew all the platinum my upline had, he had a very close team, all of them did the work, all of them had success, so why is he saying the same thing that these other ‘lazy’ IBO’s are saying?

In fact, he had stated something known as ‘chicken-chesting’. Where you leave the MLM and are immediately maligned by your former upline and group for doing so. I’ve seen this sort of thing before, in cults, where a quitter’s character is destroyed so anything they have to say can be easily ignored by the rest of the group who remains. He had this happen to him when he left, what I ask you is why? If this business is proven like you said, then why did this occur? It shouldn’t have to if it’s proven and can stand on its own two feet.

Proven, I think not. Amway is getting beaten by the likes of Avon even though they tout themselves as being the best. The training seems very thorough until you realize that it’s mostly repetitive and as you have yourself stated, ineffective. Most people are weary of all MLM’s, but this is the Grand Daddy of them all. They should be weary, Amway hasn’t proven otherwise.

Joecool said...

IBOs who "did nothing" do not complain about their results. At least I haven't yet seen an IBO say he did nothing and was upset that Amway didn't work.

What I do see, are those who worked the system as advised and lost money. Those are normally the biggest critics. And in my case, upline told many lies and half truths about the business. Even if you don't count the IBOs who "did nothing", the successful ones are a small percentage, probably less than 1 or 2%%

And I cannot buy that all those who did nothing were lazy. If the US had that many lazy people, our society could not function.

What is possible, is that people sign up to get an Ambot off their backs, or prospects were lied to when recruited, or people registered, mentioned Amway to someone else and got scorched, and decided not to do anything else. That is much more likely than being lazy.

Anonymous said...

You can't just be in activity mode and do all the right things. You have to be in results mode, you have to change your approach and innovate in order to get results. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I don't know what happened with your Platinum I know that a lot of other MLM's approach Amway IBOs and have them quit and take thier LOS over to a new company. in that case they are told to be very public about being happy they quit, to take attention off the new MLM they are doing.

Avon is not even close to beating us, nor gaining on us at all...what are you basing that on? The training is repetitive because it has to be, IBOs rarely do it. Any type of continueing education is repetitive that is the point of it.

Either way it is up to the IBO to make it or not...if the money isnt there at Platinum then they are doing something wrong. When I say it is a great system I say that because it is mathematiclly based, if you have volume you get paid. There is no way you wouldn't...its math. I would bet anyone who told me they weren't making money and they should be that I can tell them why in just a few questions. They will blog and talk but never actually show thier cards. The reason is they want to play the victim. period. You can get the rules and regulations right from the corporation and see how the money is made it is not debateable it is fact if you build it the right way you get paid. Amway is not telling its IBOs one thing and then ripping them off, 80% of the fortune 500 companies wouldn't be partnered with us...it would be a PR mess! but it doesn't matter because you will come back and say some story about "one time this guy I kinda knew said..." Blah Blah you say that is proof? that is her say, give me some proof of someone that should be/have been making money and isn't/hasn't and I will not only tell you who I am but I will personally take it to the IBOA.

The ball is in your court. I need all the details.

Joecool said...

Anonymous, let me show you the problem with the Amway business. You said it yourself, basically.

"insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."

Then you said: "The training is repetitive because it has to be"

That basically explains why IBOs keep failing. The teaching doesn't work, but it gets repeated over and over.

Anonymous said...

No joecool that is not what I am saying. The act of training must be repetitive. Training is made to instill information, you have to do an action with someone several times for it to be a habit. not every CD is the same, IBOs here completely different messages on the same CD. What I was saying there is if you are not getting results you need to ask why. What are you doing that isn't in the training, you need to tweak your approach until you get results. Every proffesional out there has to take continuous training. I hated it in medicine but I had to go to make sure I ws sharp on my area of choice.

The reason it is repetitive is if an IBO listens to CDs every now and then the same underlying principles must be the same...the techniques will change but principles never do. It doesn't work because they don't apply it. That is the same reason outside of Amway books have been written about success and they sit in stores all around the world many read them but few apply what they learn. Again you must be in results mode and study the cds, take notes listen to the same one multiple times...

Again I will go over it with anyone...even you joecool...tell me about your business. What your PV was, how much customer volume did you have? Did you do your Member/client Reporting? what was your structure like? Tell me all that on this blog and I can show you why you didn't make money. The thing is all you guys/gals have is hear-say, that is it. You don't have any proof of anything at all. The courts agree with us, the BBB agrees with us, the owner of our company was the president of the United States Chamber of Commerce for Pete's sake! Over 4 million people participate in our company and growing to this day. You say we don't have a proven track record because people quit? Are you serious? How many platinum, diamonds and above do you need before it is "proven"? It has happened more than once just this past year 4500 diamonds were at the 50th celebration...Proffessional sports players quit all the time, does that mean the NFL or NHL are scams? No that would be stupid. I don't care if 2 million people quit Amway, it doesn't mean it doesn't work. More millionaires than any other company in history, period.

So I will say it again, I will take any valid issue of mispayment straight to the board myself...why don't you test me?

Joecool said...

Anonymous, the training is repetitive. Yes, I get that but the training doesn't work. IBOs who succeed, do so inspite of the system, not because of it. Is there any unbiased evidence that supports your claim? Sure you can say that all diamonds use the system. But then again, I could say the lottery works because all the winners bought a ticket.

You can cite all of the "successful" people from Amway, maybe in the thousands. How many tens of millions tried and didn't enjoy that same success?

The courts and the BBB said Amway is a lgeal business that handles their complaints satisfactorily. Not one court or the BBB says it is a good idea to be an IBO.

4500 diamonds were at the Amway celebration? Were they all qualified? I don't think so.

Your claim that Amway has made more millionaires than any other company is false. So me where you found that information? How do you know which people were made millionaires from Amway? I would think it's pretty hard to know when none of these high pins ever reveals their income. If you can prove this, I will do a post dedicated just for that.

And yes, telling a young kid he should only try to join the NFL or NHL with no alternatives is a bad idea because many do not make it and a pro sports career can be brief.

BTW, I did make money while in Amway, but because I did as my upline advised, all my profits went into buying more tools so I ended up with a net loss when it was all said and done. I made about $800 to $1000 a month but it all went into the tools.

I was at 4000 PV with 12 frontline and I had eagle parameters.

Joecool said...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_company_has_made_the_most_millionaires


What company has made the most millionaires?
In: Business and Finance, History [Edit categories]

That's easy.
Microsoft

mrmaximum said...

I'm basing that on their sales vs Amway sales which I have found online. Amway has 8.2 Billion? Avon has 9.9 Billion. Wikipedia and I saw that stat also on site which anlyzed the amway business. He panned it, I wonder why? Avon, cosmetics, Amway, a lot more than cosmetics and still behind by a billion dollars. There is something wrong with the machine, period.

This is what I mean about arguements. This is the things that I want to see. Faith is good, of course, my wife had to build her own business from the ground up. But if at the end of the day, the results aren't there, it don't work, period. Amway isn't the best, you saw it there and you will see it other places too. Sorry to break that to you but yet more evidence that something needs to be fixed or tweaked but someone is asleep at the switch.

If the money isn't there, then yes, the Platinum is doing something wrong, but if they are going upline and asking for help and being taught wrong. Well, you tell me? Why are so many doing things wrong? A couple, okay, for sure, but SOOO many? An issue with the teaching and training methinks, or an issue with the plan. If 99% of your students fail your class, you're a bad teacher.

What you have been telling me is the same song and dance which I was given when I signed up. Amway has made more millionaires, I'm afraid not. Nothing much has changed in the arguements you are making from the things possible uplines used to say to try and sway prospects fears. If you do the work, then you get the results and if you don't then you won't. Okay then, and I keep asking you to explain why there are people who do the work, get counselled and still fail.

You tell me that the Corporation can say that it works and mathematically it works, then why doesn't work? Where is the break in the chain? You said there wasn't training, sorry that's what the AMO's are for. Do I care that some fortune 500 companies align with Amway? No, and I can tell you not a whole lot of others do either. It gives the company much needed credibility, but hold on, there is another company called direct buy which has a bit of a shady reputation. Why do they have so much stock then? I mean, why would anyone want to align themselves with a company like that?

Money, and the knowlegde that I won't stop using my M/C just because Amway has made a deal to get their own. I'm not the only one like this as we all can tell.

As Joe has stated, there are failings in the buisness which the Company either refuese to fix or doesn't acknowledge. One way or the other, they affect the business in a negative fashion thus making it harder to find success for any new IBO. It's foolish for them to continue on with their current procedures, but do so anyway.

The reason why I use examples of people close to me is that I have seen them FIRST HAND doing the work. So therefore I have seen them FIRST HAND not progressing, or progressing very slowly. It hit me like a ton of bricks when my upline's platinum quit. You may say that my info is hear-say. Fine, but I still saw it and it still did happen. None of these things are made up, however, I have yet to see large enough success in Amway to change my mind.

I have said it over and over again and you seem to skirt around the issue. If it worked, there would be NO QUESTION from us critics. There would be detractors yes, but nowhere near as there are now. If all the complaints where different, I would possibly agree with you but when Sally in Texas says the same thing that Charles in Toronto is saying. Dude, c'mon!!

mrmaximum said...

The business has a bad reputation and the company is doing little to change it. The sales and marketing plan takes longer to achieve and possibly doesn't outright work once the system expenses are put into play. The training is inadequate to properly prepare enrollees in the correct practices of building their business yet costs a pretty penny to maintain.

All these issues if they are not fixed affects the business in negative way. Therefore, hampering it's effectiveness and also putting it's future into doubt. Does it work, you haven't proved one iota that it can. I'm glad you are free, I'm glad it worked for you, really I am. I honestly hope that everyohe in your group is successful too.

ran long, sorry

That doesn't change my stance on the subject and I see no reason to post my comments on my own experience on this business. For every one of you Anon, there are many who have lost their shirts. I'm here to assist people like them from getting hurt. If the business works like you say it does, then what I say won't matter.

Anonymous said...

Joecool: I should have clarified Private company...public is to vast because it brings in the stock market. A lot of people really made money with microsoft in stock.

"Does it work, you haven't proved one iota that it can. I'm glad you are free, I'm glad it worked for you, really I am."

I just want you to see what you typed. Do you mean it doesn't work for everyone? neither does college, but you just said yourself it worked for me...so it works! Blah Blah system expenses you can cover over $1000.00 in tool expense your first month if you do it right, also you should have realized that was excessive. I did a lot of work with Team of Destiny AKA TEAM. that was never mandated, Chris Brady was a little intense about it but never forceful. You bought them. You can't lose your shirt in this business unless you don't wearout your shoes.

The future of Amway is not in doubt...that actually made me laugh. They are a global powerhouse and will continue to be...50 years down many more to go.

I admire your care towards possible IBOs, I mean that. What you are saying is some can make it, it works for the chosen few...So to tell someone not to do the business you are telling them: "Some people can do this but you don't have what it takes, you can't make it because others didn't make it either, some did but you are not that good."

Why should you project your own failure on to someone else, what right do you have to determine thier potential? Don't tell me you are saying what is likely because then no one would get married because the divorce rate is so high. It is just no logical and that is the only proof you have that it doesn't work...that is it. I do see a reason for you to talk about your actual business before you quit wouldn't that be the best way to "look out" for other possible IBOs? A real life experience that would be great...I could give you mine again but that wouldn't really help your cause though...I am a fluke though I forgot...

FYI-what you say really doesn't matter because I know it works and so do thousands of others you saying so doesn't change fact.

BTW- the team you were apart of was dissolved and the corporation terminated thousands of IB from that group...

Joecool said...

There is still no link to verify your claim about Amway producing millionaires. I'm sure if it was true, Amway would pruodly advertise it on their website right?

College doesn't work for everyone, but at least about half of people who register at a college graduate. If half of Amway IBOs became platinums, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Amway might be doing well worldwide, but I suspect that claim cannot be made in the US.

It does work for some people, but at the expense of others, because IBOs do not sell enough products to be profitable.

This blog isn't here to tell anyone to quit, it is here so IBOs can see potential red flags about their upline. Obviously I won't be able to change your opinion, nor will you change mine. But I have seen so many IBOs come and go, some calling themselves "going crown" or "going diamond" who wind up quitting and not showing their faces here after a few months.

Anonymous said...

Joecool missed your responses up there...sorry.

I agree with you. IBOs will make it with or without the system. The system just makes it easier because you don't have to manually train everyone, you hand them a CD.

The Diamonds had to be qualified to be there...so yes 4500 qualified.

I wasn't saying have a kid join the NFL. just because Barry Sanders quit the NFL doesn't meen the NFL is a scam.

4000 pv with 12 frontlines...that is where you went wrong. That is a lot to do when you don't know what you are doing.

mrmaximum...lol even though wiki is the worst source ever. 9.9 Billion in sales is how much they have done since they started...lol...we almost beat them in a year. Thanks for helping us out.

you are and IBO that means you are in business for yourself...if you thought your upline was doing something wrong why didn't you call the corporation?

The thing that is wrong is human error, not the business or the plan. If you saw some one do the work first hand then they wouldn't have quit...you must have just saw motions not results. You can sign up a million people with no PV and never make a dime.

Again you critics don't hold any validity, there is no question that your thoughts on this don't matter because everyday Amway opens and Amway grows...

"but when Sally in Texas says the same thing that Charles in Toronto is saying. Dude, c'mon!!"

Is this really your biggest source of proof? Random people across the US saying similar stories. Well then Aliens are real and visit earth all the time, there are numerous similar stories for that. Elvis is alive...really? I thought we went over considering your source. You could be 20 different people on line at once man...tell me about your platinum that quit...what did you see?

mrmaximum said...

1. Amway and college are not equal. You do not see tons of websites ranting about how College bilked them of thousands and they lost God knows what over it. Do not make that assumption as you know it isn't true or even equal. Joe has the stats earlier in this thread so that particular statement about college not working for everyone holds no water whatsoever. It workds better than Amway does, period.

2. Projections? Have you seen how much negative is out there? even if you ignore half of it there is still deludes of it out there!! I'm married now, my wife has two kids and we are happy. Here is the deal, when I read about people who have gotten divorved over this so called proven business I see red. I cannot imagine that kind of loss and I would never wish it on my worst enemy. Where are all the people who say that it saved their marriages, that they are financially free from it? I see misery and now I can relate as I'm older and have more to lose now. Why do I get so angry, because these people are simply following their hopes and dreams and just doing what they are told, sometimes if it even means right off a cliff although they don't know it.

They have the ambition and some are taken for a ride because of it. There are people's lives who have been changed forever from this business so do not tell me anything about projections when you still haven't proved that this business even works.

Speaking of reading what you wrote, you had earlier mentioned that IBO's should succeed despite their upline's influence, even if it is negative. Did you read that? You yourself stated that most IBO's have no business accumen when they start, but if you have repetitive teaching which is faulty, how pray tell are they supposed to get on the right track? Once again, fault of the AMO's. And you are going to tell me that this business is valid and proven?

3. A global powerhouse? Walmart is a Golbal Powerhouse, McD's is a global powerhouse, Amway is a much smaller company rife with infighting, mis-information, outright lies to the very people they are supposed to be helping and delusions of their success. You didn't even know that Avon was more successful, I wonder what your upline told you? Yes, we shall see indeed.

mrmaximum said...

4. As for telling prospects that they don't have what it takes in the business, that I don't know, some make quite a bit of money, some do not. I don't know, no one does, and it isn't as simple as the plan states. Therefore, I will simply warn people to stay away just in case. I'm still paying for some of my ama-mistakes even after I quit and I do not want someone to look over their lives and throw away not just money, which can be replaced, but their families.

5. I'll get down to brass tacks, okay? I have your story of success, and I know about a few others from my old team. Not including the diamonds, that is 9 people that are successful in this buisness. I have come across no less that 9 stories of people who have lost their families due to this business. I'm not including the stories of simple failure. That would be much, much more.

I would hate to lose my wife, and I see people who have lost their spouses because they 'didn't have a dream' and their spouse did and followed it to oblivion. There was no money coming in even though their spouses did the work and listened to their upline.

I'm sorry, I cannot sponsor anything which has such and effect on families especially where there are no results to even consider taking such a risk. You STILL HAVE NOT PROVIDED PROOF THAT IT WORKS. Do not tell me about how I have no proof that it doesn't, all you need to do is look around to see that Amway success is suspect at best. I don't care if the corporation is rolling in dough, I want to know where are the successful IBO's? Where are they, and I want to see recent ones, not the Larry Winters, Paul Millers, and Bill Britts.

Amway has the numbers which have been stated before. You have given reasons which simply illustrate where the AMO's have been failing their teams, failing the IBO's they are supposed to be training. This to me says that the opportunity isn't what it's cracked up to be and showing me where unsuspecting IBO's get grinded up by their own ambition and ignorance. Still waiting on the proof that it does work....still waiting...still waiting.

Remember, we aren't talking about McD's, we're talking about Amway here, they aren't the same no matter how you want to think that they are. If there was an equal amount of positive out there with Amway, I would have nothing to argue. But as I have stated, I watched a crossline go from Fired up IBO, to p!ssed off former IBO, and then join in with the same negative I have heard before. I give you props in trying to change my opinion and hanging thus far, but you can't change my opinion, that will be up to Amway and how they change their practices.

As Joe has stated if half the IBO's who enrolled became platinums, this blog, and my point would be moot.

As for my former team? Try again, LTD is still rolling strong and apparently so is the chapter I was a part of in Toronto, smaller, but still growing.

Joecool said...

4500 Diamonds? I find that hard to believe.

Even diamond club for Quixtar 3 years back only had 160 diamondships attending, which was confirmed by a Quixtar rep. And Quixtar was the US and Canada.

4000 PV with 12 frontline. It is wrong? Well, that is exactly what I was taught by my WWDB leaders, which includes Ron Puryear and the Duncans. Can you tell them that they are wrong?

When I suspected wrongdoing, I sent the information to my upline diamond, who apparently did nothing.

I noticed you backed off on the claim about Amway producing millionaires as well. That is a typical response when there are no facts to back up the claims.

Barry Sanders quitting the NFL would be a scam if he did his part and then wasn't compensated. And then players calling him a loser for quitting.

Anonymous said...

1. College and Amway are so different its not even funny, both of them can work and not work. You can't really track either one. You just can't and if you talk about money put into something Amway wins every time even if you are spending 2000$ a month on the system. College is way more expensive but I value both and you gain differently from each one.

2. The burden of proof is not on me or Amway, we have proven ourselves over 50 years and 8.2B in annual sales. If it didn't work Amway would be shut down. They wouldn't own a basketball team or be the largest exporter in Michigan they would be shut down. you admit some do make it so guess what you admit that it works then...

Look man you need to get over this proven thing...it does work it has worked for me and thousands of others. It has worked for 50 years. If you register people and build a downline that does volume then you get paid...it works. You can't say it doesn't just because it doesn't work for everyone. If that was the definition of something working, then nothing in the world works at all.

I wasn't talking about divorce and the business I would quit in a second if my wife was going to leave me if I didn't. I mean in genral you are more likely to divorce after getting married than make it...but people get married every day despite of it.

3. Walmart has 120,000 SKUs in thier store Amway has 1.4M. Amway is in 56 countries...walmart not so much. Walmart also has more lawsuites from former employees than amway has with former ibos.

McD's rocks...

I will look into Avon and make sure of my facts, either way Avon being bigger isn't just cosmetics thay have a large variety of products as well. It also doesn't meen that Amway isn't a global power house....They can't touch Amways compensation. Amway is still the number one online health and beauty leader.

Anonymous said...

Diamond club for Quixtar was 160 but Amway is the biggest part of the family.

They weren't wrong because that was just the way you did it back in the day. Now we know how hard that it is. You were prolly working pretty hard, early in the business you need stability(depth) not profit (width).

I am sorry your Diamond did nothing, that is wrong.

I am working on the facts for what private company has made the most millionaires I am finding proof even though your proof is wikipedia...I will just go change it on Wiki and then send you the link...reliable source.

I was making a point someone quiting doesn't meen it is a scam...you can't use that as an argument regarless of what other people say or compensation.

Think about it from another perspective. If you did your job like you did the business you would have been fired. If you were to pay someone to build an amway business what do you think they should have to do to earn that 100K? How much would they need to do for you to feel fair for writing them that 100K check for the year? you got paid exactly what you deserved when you were an IBO.

Joecool said...

Yes, college is much better than Amway, I don't know why IBOs use such a comparison. I believe it is because some uplines are so greedy, that they encourage young people to join Amway instead of attending college.

Anon, your argument about Amway in misinformed and I have stated it many times. Amway the corporation is successful. They have been around for many years and they own an NBA team that got trashed by the Lakers in the championship. It's all good - for Amway. Amway's success doesn't have any causal effect on the success of individual IBOs. The IBOs genreally fare miserably. It is the IBO's jobs that create Amway's and Upline's success.

Amway itself said that less than 4% of their goods are sold to non IBOs. And less than that percentage of tools are sold to non IBOs. Thus, it is EASY to see that Amway's success, and the success of the tools business, comes directly from the pockets of IBOs.

And please don't compare Amway with WalMart. Walmart has 2 million employees and they have something like 400 billion in sales compared to Amway's 3 million IBOs with 8 billion in sales, most of which are sales to the IBOs themselves. I did a blog post about Walmart with all of the figures some time back.

Joecool said...

Amway North America had about 1 billion in sales and about 160 diamondships. The rest of Amway had 7 billion in sales. Being generous, I will say the rest of the world had 200 diamonds for each billion in sales. That now makes 1560 diamonds. Are you really claiming that the rest of the world has about 600+ diamonds for every billion dollars in sales?

I don't believe it is mathematically possible for Amway to have that many diamonds when you factor in bonus payments for lesser pins.

Anonymous said...

What do you meen when you want me to prove that it works? How would you like me to prove it be specific in what you would like...I can meet you anywhere around the world with a little notice. What proof would you like? You must be young because your sarcasm is disrespectful. I have provided an insight for you so called people advocates just looking out for the little guy. The fact is you aren't, you don't care about anyone, I have given you facts how it works. I am living proof I could show up at your house with stacks of cash or show you direct deposits to my account, my name on the EDC list, all my toys and you would still say it is a lie or not proof that it works. I cannot believe your ability to ignore fact right in your face.

Why do McDonalds "work"? they show profit, been around a while, growing, all over the TV? the same thing Amway does...you tried Amway maybe you should try college.

I feel like I am trying to prove a color to someone who is color blind.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Joe I was there, 4500 around the world. Fact.

mrmaximum said...

"You can't really track either one."

Uh, Joe already did, it's earlier in this thread. College grads usually make out better than non grads and there is NO comparison to Amway. Don't start with it doesn't work for everyone. True it doesn't, still waiting for who Amway works for though.

" Look man you need to get over this proven thing...it does work it has worked for me and thousands of others."

Then where are they? Considering what you are up against in terms of the onslaught of negative, I would think you would be happy to show your success. I mean, that would be a saving grace to other Amway IBO's. Then they could sign up under you and not some other yahoo who will simply rook them for all they've got.

As for proof, welcome to the real world. I will not take your word for it, just like my wife's employees didn't take her word for their pay, they got it in writing. Just like any other real business out there. Did I mention that Gina, a real business owner provided a P/L statement. That's real life.

"I wasn't talking about divorce and the business I would quit in a second if my wife was going to leave me if I didn't. I mean in genral you are more likely to divorce after getting married than make it...but people get married every day despite of it."

One of the many selling points of the business is that it brings couples together. I'm simply calling you on all the amzing facets of the business is all. If they can't back them up, they shouldn't make them.

Would the marriage have survived? That I don't know, but all I do know is that several married people have gotten involved and came out divorced with the business directly responsible for this. As an FYI, even my mother was aware of this YEARS ago when I (I'm 34 now) was only 8. Hmm, same song, different singer, I see the results, and they aren't good.

"Walmart has 120,000 SKUs in thier store Amway has 1.4M. Amway is in 56 countries...walmart not so much. Walmart also has more lawsuites from former employees than amway has with former ibos."

You see, this is what I mean. I did not know any of this, this is negative information for sure and I'm not surprised that Walmart is responsible for this. I know of a people who dispise Walmart for forcing them out of business in their small towns. What am I asking you, why is there so much negative about Amway and virtually no positive. If it worked like you said it did, it shouldn't be that hard to find.
Amway's stats should be more favourable, and they just could be if AMO's wheren't so greedy. So long as Amway does little to nothing to change it, your business model doesn't work very well.


"either way Avon being bigger isn't just cosmetics thay have a large variety of products as well"

Go ahead and look, I didn't make it up. Amway still has tons more products however, and with their compensation plan, yes, they should be number one. Why aren't they?

Joecool said...

I don't doubt you that there were 4500 people there. But they probably weren't all currently qualified diamonds.

And as I said, you can show up at my front door with a billion dollars in cash. It only shows that it works for you.

I am not being disrespectful and I apologize if you took it that way. But the only way to show that "it works" is to show that most of your downline are also successful. That has been my contention all along. A lottery is not considered a good deal for all because a few people win.

I believe the major groups like BWW, and my former group WWDB and some others take advantage of their downline, shamelessly. For example, I attended a function where the diamond taught how long you could put off a mortgage payment so you could finance that next major function.

mrmaximum said...

I would like STATS!! You say that my information is here-say, guess what, so is yours. 4500 Diamonds, and we are supposed to take you at your word? I have no reason to make any information up. I gain nothing by being here other than possibly helping a prospective IBO see what could happen if they enroll.

I have no agenda, I don't want to hurt anyone's business to be sure, BUT this business is far too suspect to simply walk into a meeting with your heart on your sleeve and take people at face value.

Where are the others like you Anon? Why are they so few and far between? Colourblind. Dude come back with some stats, I have nothing to prove to you, you are the one who has something to prove. Newscasters coming into Amway not once, but twice and uncovering suspicious procedures. You yourself have stated that the IBO needs to find his own way despite trying to have faith in their upline.

Awesome, drop someone with a new place and give him no directions and expect him to meet you somewhere at a certian time? Whose fault is that? And it works, please. I'm not the only one who needs convincing, but I guess in your position it seems crystal clear to you.

It works for you, great. Go ahead and type in Amway in google and read every second story you come up with and look at actual business analysts (and you will find them) opinion on the business and tell me that it works.

50 years and only 8.2 billion dollars? Not a really good showing to be honest.

mrmaximum said...

The bottom-line as I see it;

1% become platinum’s, and less than 1% become diamonds. Now, anon, please tell me how this is any sort of proven, successful system. All the conglomerates mentioned earlier have success rates nowhere near that low. Tell me, how precisely do those two horrifically low numbers constitute success, a proven system which ranks as high as Wal-Mart or McD’s? Please disprove this because if you cannot, do not even try and tell me the business works. Disprove those two numbers if your argument is to hold any water whatsoever.

That isn’t success, that’s virtual wholesale failure. Most of what you have stated simply maintains this failure rate for IBO’s with no end in sight and then place the blame on them for not succeeding in spite of their atrocious upline. This is what I have been asking you to disprove. I do not care about the reasons why you are telling me that this low number is acceptable. I’m telling you as a critic and from the perspective of how some thorough prospects may be. A number that low ISN'T acceptable. There are lazy people yes, but of all the IBO’s in Amway, there are more than 1% showing the plan and following the necessary steps. So why only 1% succeeding?

Until this number is raised, until this statistic changes, you do not have a leg to stand on, and that is the bottom line. You have a hard sell my friend, trying to tell people how great such a low success rate is or should be. Even I could see that more than 1% did the work when I was enrolled, why the disparity? Those are the two numbers I will bid adieu to you with as I simply refuse this tennis match anymore. Unlike you, however, I’m not trying to make appalling failure seem acceptable and suitable and ram them down the throats of people who know better.

It isn't just me you have to convince, there are many more people with their hands on their hips thinking the exact same thing. 1% and less that 1%, disprove those numbers, if you please or if you can. And yes, outside of the business, proof isn’t something to be scoffed at; in fact, it’s a necessary business practice. Something Amway tries to be but 99% and more than 99% of the time, fails to do.

Like I have said before the business does…..not……work.

good day

Joecool said...

What happened to Amway produces the most millionaires?

Anonymous said...

The business works hence the 6billion dollar revenue. Ibo's on the otherhand sadly not all of them WORK.

and by the way joe what happend to subscribing by email?

Anonymous said...

maybe you got blocked! ha ha ha ha =P

dipshit...

**proud Amway hater**