Tuesday, June 30, 2009

Amway - Are Diamonds "Free" As They Claim?

When I was an IBO, I often saw my upline diamond driving around town dressed in a business suit. I used to think why does he keep working if he can walk away and collect residual income? My sponsor told me that the diamond only works because he cares about his downline and wants to help them. So there are two possible scenarios, the diamond is working to help his downline out of a genuine concern, or possoibly he is working because he has to! The only difference now is that the diamond works the nite and/or graveyard shift, because many IBOs are building the business after the complete their day jobs.

Now Amway has stated that the average diamond earns about $147,000 a year. That is a decent income, but after yaxes and paying for basic expenses such as medical and dental insurance, the average diamond probably lives a very middle class lifestyle. Keep in mind that a large portion of a diamond's income comes in the form of an annual bonus, thus a diamond's monthly income may be quite small. Yes, diamonds may have other sources of income such as speaking engagements and income from standing orders and functions. But this income depends on the diamond's continued appearances and efforts.

So is it likely that a diamond is "free"? I would have to conclude that a diamond is not free, and may actually have to spend more time maintaining his group than if the diamond simply had a 9-5 job. For one thing, a diamond needs to maintain a personal group to keep qualifying for bonuses. With a poor retention rate in Amway, I am fairly sure that a diamond spends much time recruiting personally sponsored IBOs to maintain this group. Additionally, a diamond must help his six or more groups of downline platinums to maintain their businesses or face the possibility of falling out of qualification. My former diamond dropped down to the emerald level but has since re-qualified at diamond. A diamond must also dedicate time to reward up and coming movers and shakers, to keep them motivated. I got to spend time with my upline diamond when I was considered a promising up and coming pin.

In order to continue to receive tools income, a diamond must also travel to numerous functions and speaking engagements. Although the tools income allegedly doubles a diamond's income, it also adds a lot of expenses, especially if the diamond and his family travel first class to show off the diamond lifestyle.

After breaking down projected income and considering projected expenses, I can only conclude that a diamond probably lives a middle to upper middle class lifestyle, and probably works as much as a man with a 9-5 job, except that a diamond works nites and weekends. A good portrait of this is shown in Ruth Carter's book (Amway Motivational Organizations: Behind The Smoke and Mirrors). In the book, the diamond had a net income of over $300,000, but lived in debt, could barely pay his mortgage, and was always on the run from one function to the next.

Is this the freedom you are seeking?

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

I think "Freedom" is very subjective thing to the individual - JC may have one view, Levi another. But I never saw the freedom the Diamonds claimed - in fact, the more I studied them, I found they were the hardest working and putting in the most hours.

That was a far far cry from the "six Saturdays and a Sunday" as proclaimed from stage by the same Diamonds. In a way, the Diamonds were slaves to the downline. Having thousands in your group means you need to be accessible.

Be careful what you wish for - that "freedom" may come with more shackles and chains than you realize.

Joecool said...

That is my observation as well. Sure, there are some tenured big pins who might be able to sit back and collect income, but many, possibly most diamonds cannot. If diamonds could walk away and receive income, why do so many quit the business and why do so many keep working? Because they have to?

Levi said...

In most cases the business is operated wrong. Not by Amway but the fact that anyone with sales and influence skills can join (likely with thier own group) and start enforcing "Team" ethics giving people without the skills something to follow.

In my case, I follow Amways ethics that anyone who wants to use and promote some great products can make a decent side income (stated in my own words not Amway) I have a low drop out rate but not a very high productive rate simply cause my way is not forced it is gradually encouraged.

Anonymous said...

I’m one of those “clock punchers” (the latest IBO put-down). I’m not a “slave” by any means – I can leave my job whenever I want – but I better be ready to replace the income! I live what I think is a comfortable life. Granted, my appliances aren’t stainless steel, countertop is Corian vs granite, computer is 8 years old, drive a Chrysler product, etc. Maybe growing up military we lived spartanly, so my idea of luxurious if skewed.

I do realize that my savings could be wiped out by health problems, I may lose my job, etc., but I don’t live in fear – which is how most of the IBOs who post here come across.

Fear seems to be a driving motivator (dead/broke by 65) for IBOs and the biz seems to be their placebo for that fear – even though I don’t see much success by them. Sure seems they believe that by just being an IBO, they have conquered that fear – all the while not realizing they are just masking it with bravado.

I’ll take my loser JOB, clock punching path and enjoy my life vs being a Chicken Little the-sky-is-falling/we’re-all-gonna-die-broke worldview of the IBO.

Joecool said...

Levi, you defend this business so fiercely, yet by your own admission, you aren;t making any money because of the tools system. My contention about what is wrong with the business is exactly that!

Anonymous said...

I remember seeing Dexter Yager at an FED many years ago. If anyone could "walk away" from the biz it would be Dex.

He talked about how he had to update a 1960's era Lockheed Jetstar for his travel because of his jammed schedule required a private jet with very long range.

After hearing that, I started to really think about that. While the rest of the IBOs in attendence whooped it up about having "the moola" to do something like that, I saw it differently. That sure didn't sound like the "walking the beaches" lifestyle as promoted on-stage. I soon realized that if a Crown has to carry that type of schedule, why would I want to be a Diamond????

Levi said...

First, once again joe you comment falsehoods I have told you over and over that if i were to keep my Amway profi where it was I would nt 2400 to3600 per year. how is that not making any money? just because i choose to go for more?

and anno, I can respect an answer such as yours, my only point is while knowing all that (not to create a sense of fear but of necessity)who would want to leave such an uncertinty as that to the wind? If your back door was broke would you just say "ah well I am not going to worry about it" and think that it will all work itself out?

Levi said...

my beef with joe and others of his ilk is that they see the ones in this business like myself that do make a small profit and operate this business in a very professional and honorable fashion ( while it may look different here) they have chose to come to my site whyasecondincme.blogspot.com just to shoot down Amway while my point is not to generate fear but to enlighten society about the need to be more financially dependant on ourselves.

I have been branded this trash talking, ex-con, Amway cultist who is brainwashed by a system of decievers called my upline.

Joecool said...

Levi said: I have told you over and over that if i were to keep my Amway profit where it was I would nt 2400 to3600 per year.

Joe says: Then why would you give that money back to upline instead of keeping it as your second income? By your contiued purchase of tools, you have no net profit. Isn't that what you are striving for?

Anonymous said...

"If your back door was broke would you just say "ah well I am not going to worry about it" and think that it will all work itself out?"

Levi - that analogy doesn't work as you assume that since that since we're not IBOs that we don't prepare for problems such as a broken door or act on them.

Levi said...

anon what makes you the deciding factor on whether an analogy works or not? everyone should prepare for such problems but the fact is not everyone can on just thier primary source of income.

Joe, Is 2400 to 3600 what I am looking for?
I dont give it back to my upline I re invest in my business by supplies, fliers and business cards. Cd's and weekend seminars are a personal enjoyment and education
(in my opinion)

Levi said...

Anon and this diamond you speak of (dex) obviously works to promote his motivational CD's. to him it is a source of income on the side of whatever he recieves from Amway bonuses. It is not what every diamond does. do you think we all are forced to be speakers?

Gina said...

You have been "branded" what you are....an IBO who is an ex-con, who is fiercly defending the biz in a manner that insults others but yet tries to put his own views above the facts...and rather than debate the facts you resort to childish behavior.

Anonymous said...

Whoa - you don't know who Dexter Yager is??????

He's a Founders Crown Ambassador! Also over 85% of his income came from his motivational company (look up the court documents if you don't believe me)

The point is: If a Crown like Dex is still hustling - maybe the Amway Plan payout isn't all it's cracked up to be????

Also - what is your ROI on those tools you buy month after month? You've been at (your own admission) 200-300 month for a while now. Shouldn't it be growing to 300-400/month and then 500-600/month exponentially??

That question is not a put-down....it's obvious that you know how to make some profit so it really should be taking off with the knowledge you have.

Levi said...

Uh, anon first off, My Crown Ambassador is Tim Foley, yeah the guy from the miami dolphins. I spend 200- 300 not only on Cd's, most of the time it is advertisement however not every month do I spend my 200- 300 in this way. Yeah a couple of months I have reached higer sales. I would like to increse my profits and I am in the process of doing so. I started my business almost 2 years ago. I started primarily using homecare products myself and saving money doing so. only until my second year did I begin selling/recommending products and begin making profits, I am slowly moving up and I thing progress is good. I would like to say yeah maybe 2-3 months from now my profits will increase with a few more customers or better yet duplicatable IBO's.

Levi said...

Gina my behavior is about as childish as yours. Now why dont you just post that P/l like you say you can and we can end this. But maybe you are not who you say you are. by you avoiding my requests you are showing me and all the other IBO's that you asking for our P/L might have been a good shot but now its turned on you and you cant answer. See most americans cannot save a sufficient amount of money each month for emergencies and basic savings or even for retirement on thier primary income. but You and JOe claim to have these glamorous jobs that enable you to be above average. well if that really is the case then Whats the Job, Whats your P/L, and does your budget show that you can do what most americans cant with one income?

Gina said...

What will end it is an IBO posting their P/L and not a business womans whos business is in no way affiliated or tied to or using or andy involvement what so ever with Amway. My P/L will show how my business runs and if I ever have the need of an investor or a partner or if I am going to tell people that if they do as I say they will make money and be free then you can bet your arse that they will see my P/L. Its you the IBO's who claim to keep rack of expenses, who claim to run your business as any other, who claim that they make money and claim that the biz really works and that your the proof....so where is the proof? And where is my guaruntee that when I post my AGAIN that this time the IBO will actually post their P/L?

Levi said...

But you claim to be in this position when can very actually be just another person typing away at their computer who choses to bash amway because of something that happened in their past either to them or to someone else.

give us the P/L for someone in your field then? none of us want to join you we are not looking to invest with you however if your carrer is as real as you say it is we might persue one like it since yours would be better than Amway. you got our average 115 per mo. How much does your carrer make and what is the title? i am giving you a bit of lead way here quit being hard headed it makes us really belive you are not who you say you are.

Gina said...

"But you claim to be in this position when can very actually be just another person typing away at their computer who choses to bash amway because of something that happened in their past either to them or to someone else."

I don't make any claims...I am who I am. You IBO's consistantly challenge this because it is you who is not who you say you are. You IBO's go out of your way to try and convince others that you are hugely successful business owners when in reality it is a different story....and everyone can see that. The problem with Amway is exactly what you say here...we all have a bad experience with someone or a bad personal experience....that is the point....glad you finally recognize it.

"give us the P/L for someone in your field then?"
Why would you assume I have someone elses P/L? I will post mine AGAIN as soon as I have proof and a guaruntee that this time the IBO trying to strong arm me into posting it will actually post theirs afterwards as they say they will. Its all about the give and the take...but you IBO's are only interested in the take.

" none of us want to join you we are not looking to invest with you however if your carrer is as real as you say it is we might persue one like it since yours would be better than Amway."

This barely makes sense....you don't need my P/L to figure this out. When one is looking to invest or looking into a start up with another company or whatever, the person is in fact presented with this very information. It is common place. Companies who have stock on the market are required by law to present one yearly in a public manner because we are all potential investors....it is very common place. Did you see one before you joined Amway? Do you present one to potential "partners"? You should.

" you got our average 115 per mo. How much does your carrer make and what is the title?"

My title of what? See, there is no form with an average earnings when it comes to being a business owner...thats the point.

" i am giving you a bit of lead way here quit being hard headed it makes us really belive you are not who you say you are."

I am not hard headed...in fact it is the contrary. I speak the truth and anyone with the gumption of an earthworm who doubts it and takes the time to look it up knows that. And the more you try to contradict facts without presenting facts or even viable information shows everyone that you are not who you say you are...no doubts about it.

Levi said...

"I speak the truth" is that your voice of reason? I dont care that you can type that. many Amway bashers have come and gone bashing amway under false names and claiming wild stories just as you are. You sound good I will give you that. but Gina I am a salesman I heard those lines before. what is the difference from you typing here and someone from the upper ranks of N21? Nothing.

P/l's, bank statments, material things, even uploaded photos' could never be claimed fact.
we live in a world wher too much can be minipulated or altered to make whatever scenario work. I will give it to you on one thing. you have consistancy. you either pay real close attention to what you claim or you are walking a thin line on which you will one day slip.

Gina said...

"I speak the truth" is that your voice of reason?" What???? You are losing your mind. What voice of reason are you referring to? You are not making sense.

" I dont care that you can type that. many Amway bashers have come and gone bashing amway under false names and claiming wild stories just as you are."

You can try to twist what I am saying all you want, but here are your problems...1) Everyone can see it. 2) The critics you claim come and go have not gone anywhere in years...it is you that has come and gone and come again and I am sure you too with go. Where are these wild stories you claim we make up? What is so wild about it? You don't even know my experience or in what capacity I experienced it yet you constantly say I am making up stories. What is made up about IBO's not keeping a P/L or most of them not een knowing what one is? They prove it every time they post, just like you do. One even referred to it as the People List. I am not making anything up and you know it, you just want to try and twist things to make it look otherwise but in effect you are reinforcing it.

" You sound good I will give you that. but Gina I am a salesman I heard those lines before."

Here is your problem...they are not lines. As I have said before anything I say can be easily verified. I have even provided links and specific references. You desperation is glowing.

" what is the difference from you typing here and someone from the upper ranks of N21? Nothing."

Ummmm OK. Last time I checked I am not promoting "business materials" or a system that I strongly encourage "business owners" to purchase. That is a huge difference.

"P/l's, bank statments, material things, even uploaded photos' could never be claimed fact."

Yes they can and they are. You are just saying this in an effort to diminish their validity. How can you possibly think a P/L, ect can not be claimed as fact? That's their whole purpose and reason for existance...you can not possibly expect people to buy into what you are dishing out do you?

"we live in a world wher too much can be minipulated or altered to make whatever scenario work."

Are you kidding? A P/L's whole purpose is to provide clear information regarding a business so that one can see if there has been any manipulation of the books. You say that cause you can't provide any shred of fact supporting your wacky business views.

" I will give it to you on one thing. you have consistancy. you either pay real close attention to what you claim or you are walking a thin line on which you will one day slip."

So one should ask themselves, if this Gina lady has been consistant for more than 2 years on various blogs and many have tried to paint her many bad things but nothing in what she has said, that is all verifiable by the way, has changed or been proven to be incorrect and none of these bad things supporters have tried to stick on her, do....why is that?

But on the other hand lets look at supporters...nothing they say is consistant in any way. In fact they change their stance and their statements and twist information constantly. You are even guilty of that and it has been pointed out...for example...you said you don't make very much money with Amway becasue of your job and the time you need to devote to it...then a few weeks later you said it was because of your family. You also at one time...before you disappeared for a bit, posted numbers that I calculated hourly earnings on being very very generous to you and rounding up in your favor, and yet a few months later you post completely different, yet vague numbers.

I am consistant because I have nothing to lie about....and you know it.

The burden of proof is upon you Amway supporters...it is you to say how great the biz is and how well it works. If it is the truth and there is nothing to hide then why not just prove it? The only answer is because you can not.

Levi said...

Then by all means you idiot post it then show me you are real prove me wrong instead you keep stating that you already have that you already posted it that people can easily verify you are who you say you are. well i have seen nothing but a liar and a fraud who can scam like the best of them. post it link it whateveer you have to do until then I will be here saying this very same thing over and over and over and over and over and over tell me can you get THE POINT?

Joecool said...

Levi, you proved yourself wrong when you admitted you were not an IBO and when you said you were only blogging to make trouble.